GOP Debate Thread

[Oddball]

We are going to have to disagree. Santorum showed that he clearly understands the Iranian regime.

You can't use the same policies you use against an athiestic communist regime aganst a Twelver regime.

PFFFT!

Khrushchev -a much bigger threat to America by a factor of about 100 than Iran- banged a shoe on the table and shouted "WE WILL BURY YOU!"....How'd that work out?

It was a different kind of threat.

Yes...It's a big mouthed little pipsqueak, who has neither one weapon nor any type of delivery system this time.

Quit being such a rube.

 

[Intense]

Ill have to say this was a win for Rick Perry just because he didn't implode again.

I think Romney, Newt, Bachmann, and Santorum all did excellent.

I think Huntsman was underwelming

And Paul did great except the question on Iran.

Pretty much agree.

I do feel better about Huntsman, than before the debate. Any but Ron Paul work for me.

I love Ron Paul on economics. And honestly, I don't have a problem with a non-interventionist policy, in general. But Iran is a huge exception to that problem because it's a radical regime that wants to destroy us. We are the Great Satan to them. You honestly think the Iranians are suddenly going to not be fighting "Satan"?

I can easily identify with him on certain issues. I like Teddy Roosevelt's position of "Speak softly and carry a big stick, You will go far". Ron Paul needs to meditate on that. Isolationism is not the answer in a Predatory World.

 

[Oddball]

Yeah. You have to approach an athiestic communist regime in a different way you approach a Twelver regime that see's glory in the afterlife for martyrdom and makes it part of their religious vocation to wage war against the little and great satan.

And all you have to do is also ignore the fact that America doesn't get seen as the "Great Satan" in a vacuum.

That bullshit line that they hate us because we're free is....well....BULLSHIT.

 

[Oddball]

I can easily identify with him on certain issues. I like Teddy Roosevelt's position of "Speak softly and carry a big stick, You will go far". Ron Paul needs to meditate on that. Isolationism is not the answer in a Predatory World.

"Isolationism" is a term coined by and invoked by warmongering Wilsonian progressives.

You can tell the man who boozes.......

 

[ladyliberal]

explain why you think that is an absurd claim. and what do you know that Perry doesn't know.

Here's a pretty good analysis of why the claim is absurd (or at least, unsupported):

PolitiFact | Mitt Romney says Hezbollah in Latin America poses an imminent threat to the United States

As to what I know that Perry doesn't, with all due respect to a major public official I think the answer has to be: a lot. Putting aside professional expertise, I know plenty of things about public policy that he does not. For instance, I can name and describe all nine US Supreme Court justices. I'm sure Perry knows plenty of things that I don't, to be fair.

So you think politifact has better resources that the Governor of one of the largest states in the country. Texas has it's own intelligence agency. You need to rethink this really hard.

What exactly are you saying? That everything Perry says is true? That a particular statement of his is true (do you remember the wording?)

There are a few problems with your reasoning:

- Perry wasn't consulting any intelligence agencies, he was thinking on his feet

- Even when Perry knows the truth, he won't necessarily say it. For example, when he claimed his opponent was refusing to debate him, PolitiFact Texas | Rick Perry says Bill White refuses to debate, he did so for political advantage, not because he believed it.

- Politifact doesn't rely on its own authority. It cites its sources, which include intelligence agencies and acknowledged experts.

- There are other governors of large states that presumably disagree with Perry on a wide variety of facts.

Also, which agency are you referring to, exactly? While I'm sure that Texas has intelligence *capability* I can't find a dedicated intelligence *agency*.

 

[AquaAthena]

I'd say Romney and Gingrich were losers, simply because they faced surprisingly hard criticism. Intrade disagrees, liking pretty much everyone except Gingrich.

I do wonder if Romney's anti-stem cell answer could hurt him. Stem cells poll about as high as they ever did (Stem Cell Research) and they were a definite though small plus for the Democrats in 2008.

Taka a poll about stem cells and what position they occupy in peoples political choice for president. It will rank down about 4,972 out of 4,500. And they will be surprised you still think it's an issue.


Romney did ok even though I don't want him. Gingrich was damaged most by Bachmann. Newt campaigning for RINO's will hurt him as it gets more exposure. Scozzafava will be an albatross.

Bachmann is great on attacks ( whether founded or not ) but not great on solutions of her own. She is however, consistent and I admire her for hanging in there for the long haul. She will not be a contender, in my opinion. She lost tonight. This election should be about the economy and JOBS and not what the other candidate has done, without benefit, of explanation, of both sides to an accusation.

 

[ladyliberal]

I'd say Romney and Gingrich were losers, simply because they faced surprisingly hard criticism. Intrade disagrees, liking pretty much everyone except Gingrich.

I do wonder if Romney's anti-stem cell answer could hurt him. Stem cells poll about as high as they ever did (Stem Cell Research) and they were a definite though small plus for the Democrats in 2008.

Taka a poll about stem cells and what position they occupy in peoples political choice for president. It will rank down about 4,972 out of 4,500. And they will be surprised you still think it's an issue.

Hyperbole aside, I agree that stem cells aren't a big issue. That's why I suggested that it might be a "small plus" for Obama.

 

[theunbubba]

I can even watch Iran and it's prophesies for the final battle on my local community TV Networks. They are looking forward to it in a big way. Sticking your head in the sand does not change that.

Doesn't propping up the tin pot despot of the week as the greatest threat to the world since *GAAAAAASP* Hitler ever get seriously old.

Doesn't running around acting like the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain ever get old?

 

[Oscar Wao]

We are going to have to disagree. Santorum showed that he clearly understands the Iranian regime.

You can't use the same policies you use against an athiestic communist regime aganst a Twelver regime.

PFFFT!

Khrushchev -a much bigger threat to America by a factor of about 100 than Iran- banged a shoe on the table and shouted "WE WILL BURY YOU!"....How'd that work out?

It was a different kind of threat.

Is it less threatening just because it doesn't have a religious tone to it? Puhleeze.

 

[Intense]

PFFFT!

Khrushchev -a much bigger threat to America by a factor of about 100 than Iran- banged a shoe on the table and shouted "WE WILL BURY YOU!"....How'd that work out?

It was a different kind of threat.

Yes...It's a big mouthed little pipsqueak, who has neither one weapon nor any type of delivery system this time.

Quit being such a rube.

I don't buy that. How many Injured Servicemen are they already responsible for? Who is to say where Soviet or Chinese interests and allegiances lie?

What about Iranian Satellite Technology? EMP Threat? I'm not claiming the sky is falling. I'm saying think outside of the box and prepare to meet the threat.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTNHZ74vt-U]Airborne Laser Mine Detection System - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Oddball]

Yes, yes you are claiming that the sky is falling...And you're falling for the Wilsonian neocon line of bullshit.

 

[theunbubba]

Here's a pretty good analysis of why the claim is absurd (or at least, unsupported):

PolitiFact | Mitt Romney says Hezbollah in Latin America poses an imminent threat to the United States

As to what I know that Perry doesn't, with all due respect to a major public official I think the answer has to be: a lot. Putting aside professional expertise, I know plenty of things about public policy that he does not. For instance, I can name and describe all nine US Supreme Court justices. I'm sure Perry knows plenty of things that I don't, to be fair.

So you think politifact has better resources that the Governor of one of the largest states in the country. Texas has it's own intelligence agency. You need to rethink this really hard.

What exactly are you saying? That everything Perry says is true? That a particular statement of his is true (do you remember the wording?)

There are a few problems with your reasoning:

- Perry wasn't consulting any intelligence agencies, he was thinking on his feet

- Even when Perry knows the truth, he won't necessarily say it. For example, when he claimed his opponent was refusing to debate him, PolitiFact Texas | Rick Perry says Bill White refuses to debate, he did so for political advantage, not because he believed it.

- Politifact doesn't rely on its own authority. It cites its sources, which include intelligence agencies and acknowledged experts.

- There are other governors of large states that presumably disagree with Perry on a wide variety of facts.

Also, which agency are you referring to, exactly? While I'm sure that Texas has intelligence *capability* I can't find a dedicated intelligence *agency*.

Your specific reference was to the statement about Hezbollah being in Mexico. That's what I addressed. Trying to throw straw isn't going to help your position. Perry knows what's going on in Mexico better than you or Politifact ever will. Deal with the fact that you are wrong. Hezbollah is in Mexico and it's even been reported by Al Jazeera.

 

[ladyliberal]

Politifact confirmed my factcheck of Bachmann statement about Politifact when her claim that Politifact factchecked her previous statement as true was subsequently factchecked to be false. fact fact fact check.


Factcheck source: Politifact: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/dec/15/fact-checking-final-iowa-debate/

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What a pointless ‘debate.’

It was more a contest to see who was more ignorant and idiotic.

It only demonstrated that none of the participants are qualified to be president.

 

[Intense]

I can even watch Iran and it's prophesies for the final battle on my local community TV Networks. They are looking forward to it in a big way. Sticking your head in the sand does not change that.

Doesn't propping up the tin pot despot of the week as the greatest threat to the world since *GAAAAAASP* Hitler ever get seriously old.

Doesn't running around acting like the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain ever get old?

You tell me. If you don't see Iran as a threat, that amazes me. Do I think we should be playing World Police? No. Does Iran have Legal Right to block the Straights of Hormuz? I don't think so. I don't think we should be flying drones over Sovereign Airspace either though. Call me naive. At the least we shouldn't be getting caught. 2 down in the last week? EMP?

 

[ladyliberal]

So you think politifact has better resources that the Governor of one of the largest states in the country. Texas has it's own intelligence agency. You need to rethink this really hard.

What exactly are you saying? That everything Perry says is true? That a particular statement of his is true (do you remember the wording?)

There are a few problems with your reasoning:

- Perry wasn't consulting any intelligence agencies, he was thinking on his feet

- Even when Perry knows the truth, he won't necessarily say it. For example, when he claimed his opponent was refusing to debate him, PolitiFact Texas | Rick Perry says Bill White refuses to debate, he did so for political advantage, not because he believed it.

- Politifact doesn't rely on its own authority. It cites its sources, which include intelligence agencies and acknowledged experts.

- There are other governors of large states that presumably disagree with Perry on a wide variety of facts.

Also, which agency are you referring to, exactly? While I'm sure that Texas has intelligence *capability* I can't find a dedicated intelligence *agency*.

Your specific reference was to the statement about Hezbollah being in Mexico. That's what I addressed. Trying to throw straw isn't going to help your position. Perry knows what's going on in Mexico better than you or Politifact ever will. Deal with the fact that you are wrong. Hezbollah is in Mexico and it's even been reported by Al Jazeera.

As I said, my recollection was that Perry said the US was in significant danger of being penetrated by Hezbollah via Mexico. As I said earlier in this thread, if the statement was simply that Hezbollah had contact with Mexico then I misheard and I withdraw my statement.

You say that Perry is knowledgeable about Mexico, which I didn't dispute. You didn't address any of my objections to relying upon Perry as an authority. Also, you didn't answer my question about Texas' intelligence agency: are you withdrawing your claim? Finally, I don't know what you mean by "throw straw", it doesn't seem to be a common English idiom and I assume you didn't mean it literally. If you mean that I had constructed a straw man, then I don't know what you're referring to. I stand by all the statements of mine quoted above.

 

[theunbubba]

Doesn't propping up the tin pot despot of the week as the greatest threat to the world since *GAAAAAASP* Hitler ever get seriously old.

Doesn't running around acting like the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain ever get old?

You tell me. If you don't see Iran as a threat, that amazes me. Do I think we should be playing World Police? No. Does Iran have Legal Right to block the Straights of Hormuz? I don't think so. I don't think we should be flying drones over Sovereign Airspace either though. Call me naive. At the least we shouldn't be getting caught. 2 down in the last week? EMP?

not EMP, Hacking the command codes. Iran has been at war with us since the revolution. They have never stopped. Trying to pull the covers up won't make it go away.

 

[Oddball]

I can even watch Iran and it's prophesies for the final battle on my local community TV Networks. They are looking forward to it in a big way. Sticking your head in the sand does not change that.

Doesn't propping up the tin pot despot of the week as the greatest threat to the world since *GAAAAAASP* Hitler ever get seriously old.

Doesn't running around acting like the reincarnation of Neville Chamberlain ever get old?

Fuck you, asshole.

Iran is nowhere near the threat that either Nazi German or Soviet Russia were.

Get a fucking grip.

 

[ladyliberal]

You say that Perry is knowledgeable about Mexico, which I didn't dispute. You didn't address any of my objections to relying upon Perry as an authority. Also, you didn't answer my question about Texas' intelligence agency: are you withdrawing your claim? Finally, I don't know what you mean by "throw straw", it doesn't seem to be a common English idiom and I assume you didn't mean it literally. If you mean that I had constructed a straw man, then I don't know what you're referring to. I stand by all the statements of mine quoted above.

Ah, here we go. The NYTimes has Perry's exact words, along with some factchecking (scroll to 10:08):

Sioux City, Iowa Republican Debate | New York Times Live Blog - Live Debate - Election 2012 - NYTimes.com

They say that the US State Department issued a report contradicting Perry's statement. You suggested that Perry's authority came from the fact that Texas is big and has intelligence capabilities. I suppose you're saying that Texas is bigger than the USA and has more extensive foreign intelligence capabilites (see, now *that* is a straw man argument).

 

[theunbubba]

What exactly are you saying? That everything Perry says is true? That a particular statement of his is true (do you remember the wording?)

There are a few problems with your reasoning:

- Perry wasn't consulting any intelligence agencies, he was thinking on his feet

- Even when Perry knows the truth, he won't necessarily say it. For example, when he claimed his opponent was refusing to debate him, PolitiFact Texas | Rick Perry says Bill White refuses to debate, he did so for political advantage, not because he believed it.

- Politifact doesn't rely on its own authority. It cites its sources, which include intelligence agencies and acknowledged experts.

- There are other governors of large states that presumably disagree with Perry on a wide variety of facts.

Also, which agency are you referring to, exactly? While I'm sure that Texas has intelligence *capability* I can't find a dedicated intelligence *agency*.

Your specific reference was to the statement about Hezbollah being in Mexico. That's what I addressed. Trying to throw straw isn't going to help your position. Perry knows what's going on in Mexico better than you or Politifact ever will. Deal with the fact that you are wrong. Hezbollah is in Mexico and it's even been reported by Al Jazeera.

As I said, my recollection was that Perry said the US was in significant danger of being penetrated by Hezbollah via Mexico. As I said earlier in this thread, if the statement was simply that Hezbollah had contact with Mexico then I misheard and I withdraw my statement.

You say that Perry is knowledgeable about Mexico, which I didn't dispute. You didn't address any of my objections to relying upon Perry as an authority. Also, you didn't answer my question about Texas' intelligence agency: are you withdrawing your claim? Finally, I don't know what you mean by "throw straw", it doesn't seem to be a common English idiom and I assume you didn't mean it literally. If you mean that I had constructed a straw man, then I don't know what you're referring to. I stand by all the statements of mine quoted above.

More straw arguments I see. And now willful obtuseness to boot. I don't intend to adress your garbage arguments about why I would use Perry as an authority on Hezbollah in Mexico. It's an obviated option. His state borders Mexico so he HAS TO learn how to deal with the other side of the border. Stop trying to be so damned obtuse or I will completely ignore your posts.