God vs Athiesm: Which Is More Rationale?

[Weatherman2020]

Is it rational to believe in God?

Many people think that faith and reason are opposites; that belief in God and tough-minded logical reasoning are like oil and water. They are wrong. Belief in God is far more rational than atheism.

Logic can show that there is a God. If you look at the universe with common sense and an open mind, you’ll find that it’s full of God’s fingerprints.

A good place to start is with an argument by Thomas Aquinas, the great 13th century philosopher and theologian.

The argument starts with the not very startling observation that things move. But nothing moves for no reason. Something must cause that movement. And whatever caused that, must be caused by something else, and so on. But this causal chain cannot go backwards forever. It must have a beginning. There must be an Unmoved Mover to begin all the motion in the universe: a first domino to start the whole chain moving, since mere matter never moves itself.

A modern objection to this argument is that some movements things in quantum mechanics -- radioactive decay, for example -- have no discernible cause, but hang on a second. Just because scientists don’t see a cause, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. It just means science hasn’t found it yet. Maybe some day they will. But then there will have to be a new cause to explain that one. And so on and so on. But science will never find the first cause. That’s no knock on science. It simply means that a first cause lies outside the realm of science.

Another way to explain this argument is that everything that begins must have a cause. Nothing can come from nothing. So if there is no first cause, there can’t be second causes. Or anything at all. In other words, if there’s no creator, there can’t be a universe.

But, what if the universe were infinitely old, you might ask? Well, all scientists today agree that the universe is not infinitely old, that it had a beginning in the Big Bang.

If the universe had a beginning, then it didn’t have to exist. And things which don’t have to exist, must have a cause.

There’s confirmation of this argument from Big Bang Cosmology. We now know that all matter, that is, the whole universe, came into existence some 13.7 billion years ago and it’s been expanding and cooling ever since. No scientist doubts that anymore, even though before it was scientifically proved, atheists called it “creationism in disguise.”

Now add to this premise, a very logical second premise -- the principal of causality that nothing begins without an adequate cause. And you get the conclusion that since there was a Big Bang, there must be a Big Banger.

But is this Big Banger God?

Why couldn’t it be just another universe? Because Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity says that all time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billion years ago, so did all time. So there’s no time before the Big Bang.

And even if there is time before the Big Bang, even if there is a multi-verse, that is, many universes with many Big Bangs, as String Theory says is mathematically possible, that too must have a beginning. An absolute beginning is what most people mean by God.

Yet, some atheists find the existence of an infinite number of other universes more rational than the existence of a Creator. Never mind that there is no empirical evidence at all that any of these unknown universes exists, let alone a thousand or a gazillion.

The conclusion that God exists doesn’t require faith. Atheism requires faith. It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from God.

So I go to church for my mom's 40 days. It's a special treat the bishop or cardibal is visiting so what could have been a 2 hour ordeal went 2:45. Omg we stood forever. Now I know how Jesus felt.

Omg the pretty robes they all wear and the weekly brainwashing they are all getting. It is the greatest bs story ever told.

From the bishop to the alterboys not a single woman on stage. Not only is religion man made its gay man made

I wore shorts to my church this morning and high fived the pastor before we got started over a joke.

There are a hundred different styles of churches because everyone has their own way of reaching back to God.

 

[sealybobo]

Is it rational to believe in God?

Many people think that faith and reason are opposites; that belief in God and tough-minded logical reasoning are like oil and water. They are wrong. Belief in God is far more rational than atheism.

Logic can show that there is a God. If you look at the universe with common sense and an open mind, you’ll find that it’s full of God’s fingerprints.

A good place to start is with an argument by Thomas Aquinas, the great 13th century philosopher and theologian.

The argument starts with the not very startling observation that things move. But nothing moves for no reason. Something must cause that movement. And whatever caused that, must be caused by something else, and so on. But this causal chain cannot go backwards forever. It must have a beginning. There must be an Unmoved Mover to begin all the motion in the universe: a first domino to start the whole chain moving, since mere matter never moves itself.

A modern objection to this argument is that some movements things in quantum mechanics -- radioactive decay, for example -- have no discernible cause, but hang on a second. Just because scientists don’t see a cause, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. It just means science hasn’t found it yet. Maybe some day they will. But then there will have to be a new cause to explain that one. And so on and so on. But science will never find the first cause. That’s no knock on science. It simply means that a first cause lies outside the realm of science.

Another way to explain this argument is that everything that begins must have a cause. Nothing can come from nothing. So if there is no first cause, there can’t be second causes. Or anything at all. In other words, if there’s no creator, there can’t be a universe.

But, what if the universe were infinitely old, you might ask? Well, all scientists today agree that the universe is not infinitely old, that it had a beginning in the Big Bang.

If the universe had a beginning, then it didn’t have to exist. And things which don’t have to exist, must have a cause.

There’s confirmation of this argument from Big Bang Cosmology. We now know that all matter, that is, the whole universe, came into existence some 13.7 billion years ago and it’s been expanding and cooling ever since. No scientist doubts that anymore, even though before it was scientifically proved, atheists called it “creationism in disguise.”

Now add to this premise, a very logical second premise -- the principal of causality that nothing begins without an adequate cause. And you get the conclusion that since there was a Big Bang, there must be a Big Banger.

But is this Big Banger God?

Why couldn’t it be just another universe? Because Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity says that all time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billion years ago, so did all time. So there’s no time before the Big Bang.

And even if there is time before the Big Bang, even if there is a multi-verse, that is, many universes with many Big Bangs, as String Theory says is mathematically possible, that too must have a beginning. An absolute beginning is what most people mean by God.

Yet, some atheists find the existence of an infinite number of other universes more rational than the existence of a Creator. Never mind that there is no empirical evidence at all that any of these unknown universes exists, let alone a thousand or a gazillion.

The conclusion that God exists doesn’t require faith. Atheism requires faith. It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from God.

So I go to church for my mom's 40 days. It's a special treat the bishop or cardibal is visiting so what could have been a 2 hour ordeal went 2:45. Omg we stood forever. Now I know how Jesus felt.

Omg the pretty robes they all wear and the weekly brainwashing they are all getting. It is the greatest bs story ever told.

From the bishop to the alterboys not a single woman on stage. Not only is religion man made its gay man made

I wore shorts to my church this morning and high fived the pastor before we got started over a joke.

There are a hundred different styles of churches because everyone has their own way of reaching back to God.

My born again cousin was in town for a funeral. He made a point to tell the preacher how he makes holy water. Lol. Satan

 

[Weatherman2020]

Is it rational to believe in God?

Many people think that faith and reason are opposites; that belief in God and tough-minded logical reasoning are like oil and water. They are wrong. Belief in God is far more rational than atheism.

Logic can show that there is a God. If you look at the universe with common sense and an open mind, you’ll find that it’s full of God’s fingerprints.

A good place to start is with an argument by Thomas Aquinas, the great 13th century philosopher and theologian.

The argument starts with the not very startling observation that things move. But nothing moves for no reason. Something must cause that movement. And whatever caused that, must be caused by something else, and so on. But this causal chain cannot go backwards forever. It must have a beginning. There must be an Unmoved Mover to begin all the motion in the universe: a first domino to start the whole chain moving, since mere matter never moves itself.

A modern objection to this argument is that some movements things in quantum mechanics -- radioactive decay, for example -- have no discernible cause, but hang on a second. Just because scientists don’t see a cause, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. It just means science hasn’t found it yet. Maybe some day they will. But then there will have to be a new cause to explain that one. And so on and so on. But science will never find the first cause. That’s no knock on science. It simply means that a first cause lies outside the realm of science.

Another way to explain this argument is that everything that begins must have a cause. Nothing can come from nothing. So if there is no first cause, there can’t be second causes. Or anything at all. In other words, if there’s no creator, there can’t be a universe.

But, what if the universe were infinitely old, you might ask? Well, all scientists today agree that the universe is not infinitely old, that it had a beginning in the Big Bang.

If the universe had a beginning, then it didn’t have to exist. And things which don’t have to exist, must have a cause.

There’s confirmation of this argument from Big Bang Cosmology. We now know that all matter, that is, the whole universe, came into existence some 13.7 billion years ago and it’s been expanding and cooling ever since. No scientist doubts that anymore, even though before it was scientifically proved, atheists called it “creationism in disguise.”

Now add to this premise, a very logical second premise -- the principal of causality that nothing begins without an adequate cause. And you get the conclusion that since there was a Big Bang, there must be a Big Banger.

But is this Big Banger God?

Why couldn’t it be just another universe? Because Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity says that all time is relative to matter and since all matter began 13.7 billion years ago, so did all time. So there’s no time before the Big Bang.

And even if there is time before the Big Bang, even if there is a multi-verse, that is, many universes with many Big Bangs, as String Theory says is mathematically possible, that too must have a beginning. An absolute beginning is what most people mean by God.

Yet, some atheists find the existence of an infinite number of other universes more rational than the existence of a Creator. Never mind that there is no empirical evidence at all that any of these unknown universes exists, let alone a thousand or a gazillion.

The conclusion that God exists doesn’t require faith. Atheism requires faith. It takes faith to believe in everything coming from nothing. It takes only reason to believe in everything coming from God.

So I go to church for my mom's 40 days. It's a special treat the bishop or cardibal is visiting so what could have been a 2 hour ordeal went 2:45. Omg we stood forever. Now I know how Jesus felt.

Omg the pretty robes they all wear and the weekly brainwashing they are all getting. It is the greatest bs story ever told.

From the bishop to the alterboys not a single woman on stage. Not only is religion man made its gay man made

I wore shorts to my church this morning and high fived the pastor before we got started over a joke.

There are a hundred different styles of churches because everyone has their own way of reaching back to God.

My born again cousin was in town for a funeral. He made a point to tell the preacher how he makes holy water. Lol. Satan

If my first contact with Christianity was with a Catholic style church, I'd probably be Jewish.

 

[Dr Grump]

It's your right to deny the obvious evidence in front of you.
Satan laughs with delight.

Isn't that the crux of the issue though. There is no evidence. Only belief...

 

[Weatherman2020]

It's your right to deny the obvious evidence in front of you.
Satan laughs with delight.

Isn't that the crux of the issue though. There is no evidence. Only belief...

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

 

[sealybobo]

It's your right to deny the obvious evidence in front of you.
Satan laughs with delight.

Isn't that the crux of the issue though. There is no evidence. Only belief...

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

That's gravity

 

[Dr Grump]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

 

[Weatherman2020]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

Like I said, the evidence is right in front of you if you're interested in seeing.
Dr Collins went into his research of the human genome as an athiest and ended up with a Nobel Prize. He also was honest with himself and came out of his work saying God did it.

Collins: Why this scientist believes in God - CNN.com

 

[Weatherman2020]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

Where does it say in the Bible we are the only ones out there?
The Bible records a lot of different life forms out there.
Are there different kinds of angels in the Bible?

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

Where does it say in the Bible we are the only ones out there?
The Bible records a lot of different life forms out there.
Are there different kinds of angels in the Bible?

Why does the idea of life on other planets seem to bother theists then?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

Where does it say in the Bible we are the only ones out there?
The Bible records a lot of different life forms out there.
Are there different kinds of angels in the Bible?

Why does the idea of life on other planets seem to bother theists then?

I know hundreds of theists, not aware of anyone bothered. Most I know are sci fi fans.

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry, I missed that day in physics were they taught explosions naturally evolve into order.

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

Where does it say in the Bible we are the only ones out there?
The Bible records a lot of different life forms out there.
Are there different kinds of angels in the Bible?

Why does the idea of life on other planets seem to bother theists then?

I know hundreds of theists, not aware of anyone bothered. Most I know are sci fi fans.

Well the old testament must have said we were alone because for thousands of years theists have believed this. Still do. You're a cherrypicker

 

[hobelim]

It's your right to deny the obvious evidence in front of you.
Satan laughs with delight.

Isn't that the crux of the issue though. There is no evidence. Only belief...

When a scientist sets out to discover whether some theory or claim made by another person is the truth or not, what do they do? They attempt to repeat the 'experiment' by which that person arrived at that conclusion. True? And to insure against the contamination of any result they first sterilize the environment, all tubes and beakers etc., and calibrate any instruments that would be used in that pursuit and then follow the instructions given. True?

In a similar way, the claim that there is a God was made by people in scripture and the means by which God was revealed to them was also recorded, the instruction given in the law.

There is no microscope, telescope, and no sterile laboratory in which to repeat such an experiment . There is no technology, there are no instruments that can measure or detect what is incorporeal. the human mind is the only place and the only instrument capable of that search.

The problem inherent with that is that the average human mind is heavily contaminated, any results derived from information being processed in such an environment would inevitably be at best inaccurate.

What then?

Purify your mind and be refined and your consciousness will ascend to the realm of living beings capable of perceiving the living God and you will evolve into a new creature... To do that you must conform to the instruction given in the law according to the teaching of Jesus about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects.

Do it and God will reveal himself to you. Then you will have the evidence in hand.


My word of caution, make sure that you have the substance to deal with the truth. Once your mind has been opened, you will be put to the test. Whatever happens after that, your life will never be the same...

 

[alang1216]

Purify your mind and be refined. To do that you must conform to the instruction given in the law according to the teaching of Jesus about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects.

Do it and God will reveal himself to you. Then you will have the evidence in hand.

This has always been my problem: first you must choose a God/religion and believe you have chosen correctly, and then, and only then will you have your confirmation. If that is the sequence, I think whatever God/religion I chose to believe in would then be confirmed in my mind and that never seemed real to me. Give me some convincing evidence that Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad were really prophets and I might believe but I can't bring myself to blindly jump off a cliff and hope for the best.

 

[hobelim]

Purify your mind and be refined. To do that you must conform to the instruction given in the law according to the teaching of Jesus about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects.

Do it and God will reveal himself to you. Then you will have the evidence in hand.

This has always been my problem: first you must choose a God/religion and believe you have chosen correctly, and then, and only then will you have your confirmation. If that is the sequence, I think whatever God/religion I chose to believe in would then be confirmed in my mind and that never seemed real to me. Give me some convincing evidence that Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad were really prophets and I might believe but I can't bring myself to blindly jump off a cliff and hope for the best.

I thought the most logical approach would be to start at the beginning with Moses through whom the instruction in the law was given.

And I'm not talking about jumping off a cliff, I am saying the exact opposite, clear your head from all assumptions and read the Bible with a discerning rational and intelligent mind. If you get to a place where there is a fantastical story like a talking serpent, don't let that be a cause for stumbling, Take the three seconds it takes to realize the talking serpent represents a type of human being, otherwise you risk being diverted into some superstitious laa laa land right off the bat.

And no, do you really think that you would ever become self deluded especially if you are seeking the truth? I'm not suggesting that you should look for something to believe in, I'm talking about seeking and then finding the truth. You're not looking to escape from reality are you?


If you follow kosher law intelligently with a rational mind you will vigilantly discern between what teaching you will or will not allow into your thoughts and your mind will remain pure and you will become holy as God is holy.

You want proof of God? Thats the only way to get it.

Its as simple as that.

 

[alang1216]

I thought the most logical approach would be to start at the beginning with Moses through whom the instruction in the law was given.

And I'm not talking about jumping off a cliff, I am saying the exact opposite, clear your head from all assumptions and read the Bible with a discerning rational and intelligent mind. If you get to a place where there is a fantastical story like a talking serpent, don't let that be a cause for stumbling, Take the three seconds it takes to realize the talking serpent represents a type of human being, otherwise you risk being diverted into some superstitious laa laa land right off the bat.

And no, do you really think that you would ever become self deluded especially if you are seeking the truth? I'm not suggesting that you should look for something to believe in, I'm talking about seeking and then finding the truth. You're not looking to escape from reality are you?

If you follow kosher law intelligently with a rational mind you will vigilantly discern between what teaching you will or will not allow into your thoughts and your mind will remain pure and you will become holy as God is holy.

Its as simple as that.

When you say "Bible" it seems you refer to the Jewish Bible. What about the New Testament and the Koran, should I read them too? What do I do when they contradict each other?

 

[hobelim]

I thought the most logical approach would be to start at the beginning with Moses through whom the instruction in the law was given.

And I'm not talking about jumping off a cliff, I am saying the exact opposite, clear your head from all assumptions and read the Bible with a discerning rational and intelligent mind. If you get to a place where there is a fantastical story like a talking serpent, don't let that be a cause for stumbling, Take the three seconds it takes to realize the talking serpent represents a type of human being, otherwise you risk being diverted into some superstitious laa laa land right off the bat.

And no, do you really think that you would ever become self deluded especially if you are seeking the truth? I'm not suggesting that you should look for something to believe in, I'm talking about seeking and then finding the truth. You're not looking to escape from reality are you?

If you follow kosher law intelligently with a rational mind you will vigilantly discern between what teaching you will or will not allow into your thoughts and your mind will remain pure and you will become holy as God is holy.

Its as simple as that.

When you say "Bible" it seems you refer to the Jewish Bible. What about the New Testament and the Koran, should I read them too? What do I do when they contradict each other?

Yes OT and NT and then the koran.

If a contradiction cannot be resolved then you have to make a decision.

For instance if kosher law given directly from God forbids eating the flesh of teeming vermin who go down on all fours and then you read that mohammed teaches people to get down on all fours then he was a false prophet whose teachings should be execrated and extirpated..

If you read that Paul taught people to expect to float up into the sky one day then he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.

Whats the problem?

Anyone can do this anytime, anywhere, even in the most brutally oppressed places on earth, in secret, by thinking, and God who sees what is done in secret will reward you openly.

Remember Abraham, like the original atheist, started off not believing in any gods or any religion. He cleansed his mind from it all and rejected it all as irrational gobbledygook. Then his mind was opened.....

 

[alang1216]

Yes OT and NT and then the koran.

If a contradiction cannot be resolved then you have to make a decision.

For instance if kosher law given directly from God forbids eating the flesh of teeming vermin who go down on all fours and then you read that mohammed teaches people to get down on all fours then he was a false prophet whose teachings should be execrated and extirpated.

Cows go around on all fours as do pigs so that wasn't God's criteria. Therefore what you said about Mohammed sounds irrational and absurd.

If you read that Paul taught people to expect to float up into the sky one day then he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.

If I shouldn't take the story about a talking snake literally why should I have to take Paul's teachings literally?

Remember Abraham, like the original atheist, started off not believing in any gods or any religion. He cleansed his mind from it all and rejected it all as irrational gobbledygook. Then his mind was opened.....

My understanding of Abraham's story is that he decided that idols did not equal gods and he established a covenant with one god of the many gods available. Their arrangement was mutually exclusive but that didn't mean Abraham didn't believe other gods didn't exist. Only much later did that concept creep into Judaism.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Sorry, I missed the day in physics where this super being just went 'bam' and everything just fell into place.

And we are the only life in the universe. Finding life won't stop the God debate but it will put a kabosh on all organized religions who say we are alone

Where does it say in the Bible we are the only ones out there?
The Bible records a lot of different life forms out there.
Are there different kinds of angels in the Bible?

Why does the idea of life on other planets seem to bother theists then?

I know hundreds of theists, not aware of anyone bothered. Most I know are sci fi fans.

Well the old testament must have said we were alone because for thousands of years theists have believed this. Still do. You're a cherrypicker

No, you're the one cherry picking. Link to one Church claiming we are alone. One. No Angels, no Marvin the Martians. I'm not aware of one out of the hundreds of thousands.