"Give me Liberty Or Give Me Death"

[Book of Jeremiah]

Question to the board. Did Patrick Henry speak out against evil and defend his country because he was a Christian or because he was an Amerian Patriot who loved his country?

What motivated him and would he be accused today of being a bad christian because he spoke up?

Yes or no?

Thank you in advance for your answers. - Jeri

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Patrick Henry was an inveterate and voracious engrosser of land lying beyond the deadline set by the British State; later he was heavily involved in the affairs of one of the notorious Yazoo companies, operating in Georgia. He seems to have been most unscrupulous. His company's holdings in Georgia, amounting to more than 10 million acres, were to be paid for in Georgia scrip, which was much depreciated. Henry bought up all these certificates that he could get his hands on, at ten cents on the dollar, and made a great profit on them by their rise in value when Hamilton put through his measure for having the central government assume the debts they represented. Undoubtedly it was this trait of unrestrained avarice which earned him the dislike of Mr. Jefferson, who said, rather contemptuously, that he was "insatiable in money."[/FONT]

Albert J. Nock - Our Enemy the State (1935)
Excerpt regarding the causes of the Revolution here

Another revisionist. Do you write history books for Houghton - Mifflin by any chance?

 

[JWBooth]

Question to the board. Did Patrick Henry speak out against evil and defend his country because he was a Christian or because he was an Amerian Patriot who loved his country?

What motivated him and would he be accused today of being a bad christian because he spoke up?

Yes or no?

Thank you in advance for your answers. - Jeri

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Patrick Henry was an inveterate and voracious engrosser of land lying beyond the deadline set by the British State; later he was heavily involved in the affairs of one of the notorious Yazoo companies, operating in Georgia. He seems to have been most unscrupulous. His company's holdings in Georgia, amounting to more than 10 million acres, were to be paid for in Georgia scrip, which was much depreciated. Henry bought up all these certificates that he could get his hands on, at ten cents on the dollar, and made a great profit on them by their rise in value when Hamilton put through his measure for having the central government assume the debts they represented. Undoubtedly it was this trait of unrestrained avarice which earned him the dislike of Mr. Jefferson, who said, rather contemptuously, that he was "insatiable in money."[/FONT]

Albert J. Nock - Our Enemy the State (1935)
Excerpt regarding the causes of the Revolution here

Another revisionist. Do you write history books for Houghton - Mifflin by any chance?

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Patrick Henry would be considered a terrorist today, and the sheeple would applaud his crucifixion.

 

[Nosmo King]

Patrick Henry would have thrown off the political correctness and been far more blunt about it, Sir. Patrick Henry would have shouted from the rooftops that the founding fathers never meant Islam when they were addressing freedom of Religion. So much for your understanding of who Patrick Henry was and what he stood for. Michele Bachmann does indeed stand 4 square in the company of men such as Patrick Henry.

If you were a patriot, you'd recognize the obvious resemblance. - Jeremiah

Isn't it funny that Conservatives would willingly throw off the protections of the first amendment while defending what they consider 'freedom'?

you are an idiot.

 

[MondoBongo]

Question to the board. Did Patrick Henry speak out against evil and defend his country because he was a Christian or because he was an Amerian Patriot who loved his country?

What motivated him and would he be accused today of being a bad christian because he spoke up?

Yes or no?

Thank you in advance for your answers. - Jeri

You certainly seem to have the "persecution complex" down pat.

 

[MondoBongo]

Leddley made a comment to tipofthespear poster that Christians on this board are not Christians because of what they write. To the best of my knowledge I don't see any Christians here cursing their heads off, insulting people calling them stupid, whackos, etc so I must assume Leddley believes it isn't alright for a Christian to speak up for their country - or participate in any political discussion.

According to another writer - Deidre - Christians are haters if they speak out against evil or despise evil that is done. Deidre believes any Christian or Jew who opposes him in written word is a bad example for Christianity and Judaism. So where are these people coming up with this?

Should Patrick Henry have kept quiet because he was a Christian? Yes or no?

No

The bible accurately predicted that the whole world will hate Christians during tribulation.
Why is that?
Because Christianity is against immorality and unethical behavior.
The left do not like the ideology that the individual is responsible for their own behavior.
You as a person should be responsible for your own actions.
This ideology goes against the lefts agenda of taking care of everyone because they can't do it. They are not capable of doing it so Big Brother must do it for them.With this lefty ideology you can then have the one world government which will promise lies of peace in the world and equality for all, when in reality it is about control over all of the citizens of the world.

That's bullshit. Oh and "that which you do to the least of us, you do to me." I can't remember who said that, but it seems appropriate.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Leddley made a comment to tipofthespear poster that Christians on this board are not Christians because of what they write. To the best of my knowledge I don't see any Christians here cursing their heads off, insulting people calling them stupid, whackos, etc so I must assume Leddley believes it isn't alright for a Christian to speak up for their country - or participate in any political discussion.

According to another writer - Deidre - Christians are haters if they speak out against evil or despise evil that is done. Deidre believes any Christian or Jew who opposes him in written word is a bad example for Christianity and Judaism. So where are these people coming up with this?

Should Patrick Henry have kept quiet because he was a Christian? Yes or no?

You’re either not very observant or none of the conservative posters in the forum are Christian.

Otherwise, the issue isn’t Christians expressing themselves with regard to political or social issues per se, but Christians exhibiting their ignorance and hate with regard to other persons in violation of fundamental Christian tenets.

Tenets such as tolerance, forbearance, ‘turn the other cheek,’ ‘let he among you without sin,’ ‘we’re all god’s children,’ ‘love others as one loves himself,’ etc, etc.

In this very forum we have Christians making ignorant, hateful statements concerning gay boy scouts; in this very thread we have Christians exhibiting ignorance and hate for the ‘left,’ accusing liberals of being ‘intolerant,’ ‘attacking’ and ‘demonizing’ others, and lying as to liberals advocating ‘big government’ over individual liberty. The last time anyone checked lying about others is a sin, or at least it doesn’t comport with Christian dogma.

Christians need to realize that what they might perceive to be ‘evil’ is indeed not, homosexuals are not ‘evil,’ undocumented immigrants are not ‘evil,’ women who seek abortions are not ‘evil.’ And the lame contrivance of ‘hate the sin, love the sinner,’ is just a cop-out, as the message is clear that the ‘sin’ cannot be separated from the person.

Perhaps if Christians exhibited the same ‘outrage’ at actual evil such as poverty, unsafe working conditions, poor pay, and lack of health insurance, as they do homosexuals and abortion, they might be taken a bit more seriously and perceived less as hypocrites.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The only two early American Fathers that would go even distantly be compared as having similarities in doctrine with the heresies of evangelicalism and fundamentalism today would be John Jay and Patrick Henry, and even then it is a stretch. Washington, Madison, Franklin, Jefferson, Morris, Rush, etc., would listen to the likes of the far right social traditionalists today and go .

However, on this Board we have some lefties and atheists and libertarians who are very bit of wack as those of the far right.

 

[MondoBongo]

Patrick Henry would have thrown off the political correctness and been far more blunt about it, Sir. Patrick Henry would have shouted from the rooftops that the founding fathers never meant Islam when they were addressing freedom of Religion. So much for your understanding of who Patrick Henry was and what he stood for. Michele Bachmann does indeed stand 4 square in the company of men such as Patrick Henry.

If you were a patriot, you'd recognize the obvious resemblance. - Jeremiah

Link, please. Or were you using your ass as a point of reference?

 

[peach174]

There are no actual points here, Jeri. The Constitution is a secular document. End of story.

Then why does it say in our Constitution in Article 1 Sec. 7 that congress can't do business on Sundays.
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)
Our Constitution is signed in the Year of Our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven.
Our Declaration of Independence is signed, with a firm Reliance of the Protection of divine Providence (God)
They broke away from the King of England and put their faith in God and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor. Had they lost the Revolutionary War they would have been hung as traitors and would have lost all of their money and land.
Notice they all put their faith in God first and they all believed that they won the war because of their faith in God. They won against all of the odds being against them.
They had no Army at the time, then a very untrained army and less than the troops of England, yet they won.
Everyone thought it was a miracle at the time and God had his hand in it.
We have always opened each and every day of Congress and the supreme court with prayers.
We have always had a congress appointed Chaplain.
Most legal documents before America was founded were signed, reign of your majesty

Our Constitution is not secular.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Question to the board. Did Patrick Henry speak out against evil and defend his country because he was a Christian or because he was an Amerian Patriot who loved his country?

What motivated him and would he be accused today of being a bad christian because he spoke up?

Yes or no?

Thank you in advance for your answers. - Jeri

What does Christianity have to do with politics? Are you trying to hammer the round peg of Christianity into the square hole of American patriotism?

The left has made it an issue. Look at how you have treated Michele Bachmann!

Nonsense.

Bachmann has only herself to blame, she alone made statements ignorant and hateful as to homosexuals, as well as advocating the due process rights of immigrants be violated as well as statements contrary to the Constitution’s requirement that church and state remain separate.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There are no actual points here, Jeri. The Constitution is a secular document. End of story.

Then why does it say in our Constitution in Article 1 Sec. 7 that congress can't do business on Sundays.
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)
Our Constitution is signed in the Year of Our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven.
Our Declaration of Independence is signed, with a firm Reliance of the Protection of divine Providence (God)
They broke away from the King of England and put their faith in God and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor. Had they lost the Revolutionary War they would have been hung as traitors and would have lost all of their money and land.
Notice they all put their faith in God first and they all believed that they won the war because of their faith in God. They won against all of the odds being against them.
They had no Army at the time, then a very untrained army and less than the troops of England, yet they won.
Everyone thought it was a miracle at the time and God had his hand in it.
We have always opened each and every day of Congress and the supreme court with prayers.
We have always had a congress appointed Chaplain.
Most legal documents before America was founded were signed, reign of your majesty

Our Constitution is not secular.

You are among the most consistently wrong posters on this forum.

 

[peach174]

The only two early American Fathers that would go even distantly be compared as having similarities in doctrine with the heresies of evangelicalism and fundamentalism today would be John Jay and Patrick Henry, and even then it is a stretch. Washington, Madison, Franklin, Jefferson, Morris, Rush, etc., would listen to the likes of the far right social traditionalists today and go .

However, on this Board we have some lefties and atheists and libertarians who are very bit of wack as those of the far right.

Wanting our government to adhere to the Constitution of which they wrote is being cuckoo?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Let me see if I have all of Jeri's points correct:

1) Michelle Bachmann is an inspirational leader in the vein of Patrick Henry

2) The Christian members of the USMB are all very well spoken, calm and polite in their
debating style. Unlike the non-Christians who curse and insult all the time.

3) The founders were talking about every religion except Islam when they spoke of freedom
of religion.

Do I have that all right?

 

[Nosmo King]

We enjoy, by the grace of God, a secular form of government. The congress cannot establish a religion. Our laws are designed to protect religious freedom, not to promote one religion over any other.

If an ecclesiastical form of government is something that appeals, try Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Vatican City. There, one's faith is rewarded by protections of the state or punished by the whims of the state.

Fortunately the founding fathers were much brighter than the ideologues of today's Conservative movement. They would not tolerate the outrageous calls of anti-Islam that seem to be the hallmark of the contemporary Conservative movement. In fact, today's Conservative who thinks Islam is something to be purged would find themselves more comfortable among the European Fascists of the 20th century. So much for 'defending liberty'.

 

[peach174]

There are no actual points here, Jeri. The Constitution is a secular document. End of story.

Then why does it say in our Constitution in Article 1 Sec. 7 that congress can't do business on Sundays.
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)
Our Constitution is signed in the Year of Our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven.
Our Declaration of Independence is signed, with a firm Reliance of the Protection of divine Providence (God)
They broke away from the King of England and put their faith in God and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor. Had they lost the Revolutionary War they would have been hung as traitors and would have lost all of their money and land.
Notice they all put their faith in God first and they all believed that they won the war because of their faith in God. They won against all of the odds being against them.
They had no Army at the time, then a very untrained army and less than the troops of England, yet they won.
Everyone thought it was a miracle at the time and God had his hand in it.
We have always opened each and every day of Congress and the supreme court with prayers.
We have always had a congress appointed Chaplain.
Most legal documents before America was founded were signed, reign of your majesty

Our Constitution is not secular.

You are among the most consistently wrong posters on this forum.

You really should read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.
It wouldn't hurt for you to read some of our early history too.
Everything I just said in the above is accurate and true.

"If I shall be able to rise superior to these and many other difficulties, which might be enumerated, I shall most religiously believe, that the finger of Providence (God) is in it, to blind the eyes of our enemies; for surely if we get well through this month, it must be for want of their knowing the disadvantages we labour under." - General George Washington's Letter to Joseph Reed, January 14, 1776.

Benjamin Franklin
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." - Letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University, March 9, 1790

Both of these letters are in the Library of Congress

 

[MondoBongo]

Then why does it say in our Constitution in Article 1 Sec. 7 that congress can't do business on Sundays.
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)
Our Constitution is signed in the Year of Our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven.
Our Declaration of Independence is signed, with a firm Reliance of the Protection of divine Providence (God)
They broke away from the King of England and put their faith in God and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor. Had they lost the Revolutionary War they would have been hung as traitors and would have lost all of their money and land.
Notice they all put their faith in God first and they all believed that they won the war because of their faith in God. They won against all of the odds being against them.
They had no Army at the time, then a very untrained army and less than the troops of England, yet they won.
Everyone thought it was a miracle at the time and God had his hand in it.
We have always opened each and every day of Congress and the supreme court with prayers.
We have always had a congress appointed Chaplain.
Most legal documents before America was founded were signed, reign of your majesty

Our Constitution is not secular.

You are among the most consistently wrong posters on this forum.

You really should read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.
It wouldn't hurt for you to read some of our early history too.
Everything I just said in the above is accurate and true.

"If I shall be able to rise superior to these and many other difficulties, which might be enumerated, I shall most religiously believe, that the finger of Providence (God) is in it, to blind the eyes of our enemies; for surely if we get well through this month, it must be for want of their knowing the disadvantages we labour under." - General George Washington's Letter to Joseph Reed, January 14, 1776.

Benjamin Franklin
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." - Letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University, March 9, 1790

Both of these letters are in the Library of Congress

Could you point me to the parts of the constitution where those quotes are found? kthx

 

[peach174]

We enjoy, by the grace of God, a secular form of government. The congress cannot establish a religion. Our laws are designed to protect religious freedom, not to promote one religion over any other.

If an ecclesiastical form of government is something that appeals, try Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Vatican City. There, one's faith is rewarded by protections of the state or punished by the whims of the state.

Fortunately the founding fathers were much brighter than the ideologues of today's Conservative movement. They would not tolerate the outrageous calls of anti-Islam that seem to be the hallmark of the contemporary Conservative movement. In fact, today's Conservative who thinks Islam is something to be purged would find themselves more comfortable among the European Fascists of the 20th century. So much for 'defending liberty'.

Belief in God is not secular.
Congress can not promote any one type of religion but belief in God and the conduct of Americans in morals and ethics, is not establishing one religion.

 

[peach174]

You are among the most consistently wrong posters on this forum.

You really should read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.
It wouldn't hurt for you to read some of our early history too.
Everything I just said in the above is accurate and true.

"If I shall be able to rise superior to these and many other difficulties, which might be enumerated, I shall most religiously believe, that the finger of Providence (God) is in it, to blind the eyes of our enemies; for surely if we get well through this month, it must be for want of their knowing the disadvantages we labour under." - General George Washington's Letter to Joseph Reed, January 14, 1776.

Benjamin Franklin
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." - Letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University, March 9, 1790

Both of these letters are in the Library of Congress

Could you point me to the parts of the constitution where those quotes are found? kthx

What part of this did you not read.
Then why does it say in our Constitution in Article 1 Sec. 7 that congress can't do business on Sundays.
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted)
Our Constitution is signed in the Year of Our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven.
Our Declaration of Independence is signed, with a firm Reliance of the Protection of divine Providence (God)
They broke away from the King of England and put their faith in God and pledged their lives, their fortunes and their honor.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The DoI recognizes a Creator but flatly does not identify Him or Her as Christian.

The U.S. Constitution is secular. A legal attestation does not make the document religious. In fact, the document bars Test Oaths, the document bars a National Church. Whenever folks try to prove otherwise (David Barton, the great Oz of the movement comes to mind), they burn themselves. The Bible is not the Constitution.

Our government is governed by the charter of The Founders.