Fried Birds are only “Streamers”

Wiki vs all those published studies????...I am laughing out loud at you thunder....you are truly laughable....and pathetic at the same time. Cant say that I really blame you this time....must be disconcerting to have that much blood on your hands.

You are really laughing because you're so stupid and clueless, SSoooDDuuumb. You are apparently so retarded you don't realize that everything stated in that Wikipedia article is referenced to supporting scientific studies.

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  142. Kamolratanakul P, Butraporn P, Prasittisuk M, Prasittisuk C, Indaratna K (2001). "Cost-effectiveness and sustainability of lambdacyhalothrin-treated mosquito nets in comparison to DDT spraying for malaria control in western Thailand". American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene 65 (4): 279–84. PMID 11693869.
  143. Goodman CA, Mnzava AE, Dlamini SS, Sharp BL, Mthembu DJ, Gumede JK (2001). "Comparison of the cost and cost-effectiveness of insecticide-treated bednets and residual house-spraying in KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa". Trop. Med. Int. Health 6 (4): 280–95. doi:10.1046/j.1365-3156.2001.00700.x. PMID 11348519.
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We've been over this ground a dozen times before.. The kill rate of windmills and these Solar Death rays are NOT the issue. The issue is DENIAL OF HABITAT zones and the SPECIFIC species that are experiencing genocide in the proximity of these installations. Greens think they can place these sketchy ideas anywhere they damn please with impugnity. And WITHOUT the same due dilligience as we apply to any other development issue. In fact, I think they view these items as a holy and above their enviro sensibilities. They are SO DAMN arrogant about it, that they SALIVATE over putting these wildlife cuisinarts on the ocean floor in the most sensitive tidal basins on the planet without so much as THOUGHT to the carnage that will occur..

It's bad enough that so much money is being on wasted on part-time unreliable power systems without the arrogance and the double standards.
 
We've been over this ground a dozen times before.. The kill rate of windmills and these Solar Death rays are NOT the issue. The issue is DENIAL OF HABITAT zones and the SPECIFIC species that are experiencing genocide in the proximity of these installations. Greens think they can place these sketchy ideas anywhere they damn please with impugnity. And WITHOUT the same due dilligience as we apply to any other development issue. In fact, I think they view these items as a holy and above their enviro sensibilities. They are SO DAMN arrogant about it, that they SALIVATE over putting these wildlife cuisinarts on the ocean floor in the most sensitive tidal basins on the planet without so much as THOUGHT to the carnage that will occur..

It's bad enough that so much money is being on wasted on part-time unreliable power systems without the arrogance and the double standards.
More delusional babble...

The relative "kill rate" compared to all of the other human related causes of bird mortality is exactly the issue here, as is the relative indifference of you rightwingnuts to the far greater numbers of birds that are killed by fossil fuel production and use.
 
We've been over this ground a dozen times before.. The kill rate of windmills and these Solar Death rays are NOT the issue. The issue is DENIAL OF HABITAT zones and the SPECIFIC species that are experiencing genocide in the proximity of these installations. Greens think they can place these sketchy ideas anywhere they damn please with impugnity. And WITHOUT the same due dilligience as we apply to any other development issue. In fact, I think they view these items as a holy and above their enviro sensibilities. They are SO DAMN arrogant about it, that they SALIVATE over putting these wildlife cuisinarts on the ocean floor in the most sensitive tidal basins on the planet without so much as THOUGHT to the carnage that will occur..

It's bad enough that so much money is being on wasted on part-time unreliable power systems without the arrogance and the double standards.
More delusional babble...

The relative "kill rate" compared to all of the other human related causes of bird mortality is exactly the issue here, as is the relative indifference of you rightwingnuts to the far greater numbers of birds that are killed by fossil fuel production and use.


It's good to have an enviro issue that demonstrates how little some folks understand about conservation. You can have a MASSIVE kill rate from drunk robins running into buildings, but it doesn't deny them HABITAT because they move on. Whereas a moderate kill rate for a couple dozen raptors in the vicinity of a wind farm will decimate the territorial population and effectively wipe them off the map in that area.

Just take a map -- put a big red circle around every wind and solar death ray installation and all the territoritorial species that call that home will be gone in a few years..

Denier..
 
"It doesn't deny them habitat because they move on".


Re-reading that, does it make sense to you?
 
We've been over this ground a dozen times before.. The kill rate of windmills and these Solar Death rays are NOT the issue. The issue is DENIAL OF HABITAT zones and the SPECIFIC species that are experiencing genocide in the proximity of these installations. Greens think they can place these sketchy ideas anywhere they damn please with impugnity. And WITHOUT the same due dilligience as we apply to any other development issue. In fact, I think they view these items as a holy and above their enviro sensibilities. They are SO DAMN arrogant about it, that they SALIVATE over putting these wildlife cuisinarts on the ocean floor in the most sensitive tidal basins on the planet without so much as THOUGHT to the carnage that will occur..

It's bad enough that so much money is being on wasted on part-time unreliable power systems without the arrogance and the double standards.
More delusional babble...

The relative "kill rate" compared to all of the other human related causes of bird mortality is exactly the issue here, as is the relative indifference of you rightwingnuts to the far greater numbers of birds that are killed by fossil fuel production and use.


It's good to have an enviro issue that demonstrates how little some folks understand about conservation. You can have a MASSIVE kill rate from drunk robins running into buildings, but it doesn't deny them HABITAT because they move on. Whereas a moderate kill rate for a couple dozen raptors in the vicinity of a wind farm will decimate the territorial population and effectively wipe them off the map in that area.

Just take a map -- put a big red circle around every wind and solar death ray installation and all the territoritorial species that call that home will be gone in a few years..

Denier..
And still more delusional babble...

Fossil fuel production and use kills far more birds by several orders of magnitude than all of the solar plants and wind turbines combined, but you rightwingnut hypocrites ignore that fact because your phony concern for the birds killed at solar plants and wind farms is part of the fossil fuel industry's propaganda campaign against their competitors. Oil spills and oil refinery wastewater pits kill over 2,000,000 birds a year and those aren't all "drunk robins running into buildings". You try to act sooooo concerned about eagles and other raptors but you totally ignore the facts -
"Over 30,000 bird carcasses were recovered, including 250 Bald Eagles (Haliaeetus leucocephalus) following the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill in Prince William Sound Alaska, but between 100,000 and 300,000 birds of all species were estimated to have died (Piatt et al. 1990)."
(source - A Summary and Comparison of Bird Mortality from Anthropogenic Causes with an Emphasis on Collisions)

And that's just ONE oil spill.
 
You are quoting from an unpublished propaganda piece paid for by tax dollars..

Acknowledgments
The effort to gather and summarize much of the literature
in this document was funded by DOE, with
direction and support from the Wildlife Working
Group of the National Wind Coordinating Committee.

Most of the collision mortality information was first
reported in the NWCC Resource Document entitled
“Avian collisions with wind turbines: A summary of
existing studies and comparisons to other sources of
avian collision mortality in the United States”
(Erickson et al. 2001). We appreciate the comments
from the reviewers of that report, including K. Sinclair
(National Renewable Energy Laboratory), A. Manville
(USFWS), P. Kerlinger (Curry and Kerlinger), S.
Ugoretz (Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources),
T. Gray (American Wind Energy Association),
and J.
Stewart (FPL Energy). We also appreciate the comments
on this manuscript from C. J. Ralph.

Cut to the chase.. HOW BIG a pile of fried birds do YOU NEED at IvanPah before you give a damn TinkerBelle?
 
You are quoting from an unpublished propaganda piece paid for by tax dollars..
LOLOLOL....so pathetic....I quoted some information about the birds killed in the Exxon Valdez oil spill contained in a USDA Forest Service document that referenced a scientific study of the effects of the spill on wildlife - (Piatt et al. 1990) - that has nothing to do with bird collisions with wind turbines.







Cut to the chase.. HOW BIG a pile of fried birds do YOU NEED at IvanPah before you give a damn TinkerBelle?

More BS. Oil and coal production and usage, and now fracking for gas, kill many, many times as many birds as solar and wind. The more solar and wind energy production we have, the less fossil fuels we need to use, so fewer birds are killed overall.

Your odious hypocrisy is in your efforts, at the behest of your puppetmasters in the fossil fuel industry, to denigrate solar and wind for killing birds while deliberately ignoring the much, much greater number of birds killed by oil spills and oil wastewater pits and other hazards of fossil fuel production and usage. And in ignoring the fact that far fewer birds would be killed if we got off of using fossil fuels and switched over to renewables like solar and wind. Your concern for the birds is obviously very phony.
 
Longknife: Your pic is from a wind farm, not a solar farm. Look at the windmills in the background.

Solar-powered scarecrows protecting harvests, saving money and labor
Mon, Aug 25, 2014 - Chirping sparrows are a constant headache for farmers, who fear more than anything that the birds will pilfer their rice paddy and millet farm harvests. The Taitung District Agricultural Research and Extension Station has come up with a “solar-powered dummy bird repellent.” Experimental farmland using the repellent had a 30 percent higher harvest rate than the average farm. Other advantages include protecting the environment by saving energy and economizing on labor.
Tseng Hsiang-en, an assistant researcher at the station, says that Taitung County has the greatest amount of farmland devoted to the cultivation of millet in all of Taiwan. Millet is also a special traditional crop among Aborigines, Tseng says. During the month before harvest, however, millet is often picked at by birds, Tseng says, adding that if no preventative measures are taken as much as 95 percent of the harvest can be lost.

Conventional farmers can only hire workers to physically drive away the birds, which Tseng says can cost up to NT$39,000 for each worker per hectare during a single harvest. Tseng says it is excruciating labor because each worker must stand under the sun for at least eight hours every day. Hopefully the new device will help lessen the burden for farmers, Tseng says. In three consecutive experimental millet harvests, the station discovered that preventative measures during the spring harvest for Asian rice were highly effective, Tseng says, adding that rice farms using the repellent had a 30 percent greater harvest than farms using only humans to drive away birds.

p11-140825-a1.jpg

A solar-powered scarecrow is pictured on an experimental farm at the Taitung District Agricultural Research and Extension Station in Taitung County

The bird repellent uses a solar-powered panel as its power source and stores power in an accumulator, allowing the device to run autonomously in the field. As soon as the first rays of sunlight hit at dawn, the circuit board detects even the slightest bit of power being generated in the solar-powered panel, and immediately flips a switch to start up a DC motor to power the scarecrow’s mechanized arms. A conducting wire is wrapped around the ends of the arms, which pulls on a noisemaker that makes sounds to imitate the way a human would try to scare off birds. At dusk the electricity switches off and the devices stops running.

In the event of unremitting cloudy or rainy conditions, Tseng says that, if the solar-powered panel does not produce enough electricity, an internal battery system provides a continuous power source. A utility model patent was acquired for the technology, which has been transferred to manufacturers, Tseng says.

Solar-powered scarecrows protecting harvests saving money and labor br - Taipei Times
 
Last edited:
Longknife: Your pic is from a wind farm, not a solar farm. Look at the windmills in the background.
]

I noted and tried to explain that it was the first image I found on a Bing search. Will be more careful in the future.
 
Instead of bickering, cant we make it work? make it safe... wind and solar, safer? There are wind designs that don't decapitate eagles, and we could be just a few modifications away from making these beams of hear or rays ( sorry I am not real clear on what the process is, I just know to singe feathers takes heat), less flammable?
Just a thought, I am for Green power, but not killing birds to get it, specially protected birds. Yes we know about cats and windows and DDT, but does that just mean keep doing it with newer technologies? Great debate here, We are presenting these arguments in a few different arenas and groups both Pro's and con's. It is neat to see so much passion on both sides of the issue. thank - you for your insight and information. Lec.
 
The only real issue here is this one....
Oil and coal production and usage, and now fracking for gas, kill many, many times as many birds as solar and wind. The more solar and wind energy production we have, the less fossil fuels we need to use, so fewer birds are killed overall.

The odious hypocrisy of you anti-environmental rightwingnuts is in your efforts, at the behest of your puppetmasters in the fossil fuel industry, to denigrate solar and wind for killing birds while deliberately ignoring the much, much greater number of birds killed by oil spills and oil wastewater pits and other hazards of fossil fuel production and usage. And in ignoring the fact that far fewer birds would be killed if we got off of using fossil fuels and switched over to renewables like solar and wind. Your concern for the birds is obviously very phony.

 
But they still want to use DDT.
Tens of thousands of people dies every year from mosquito-borne diseases. All that could be stopped by spraying DDT on the habitats of the insects.

DDT killed exponentially more birds than solar and wind power plants combined.

DDT almost completely wiped out the Bald Eagle, the Golden Eagle, the Peregrine Falcon, and countless other birds of prey.



The Altamont wind farm near Livermore has cut the endangered raptor population by half in 20 years.

Link? Or more 'facts' you have pulled out of your ass.
 
DDT is still used in places where malaria in endemic. In some places, it has been overused to the extent that the mosquito populations have developed an immunity to it.

It is simply a rightwingnut myth that millions of people have died because it is not allowed to be used in Africa. A rightwingnut myth spread by an obese junkie on the radio.
 
DDT and Birds

Birds played a major role in creating awareness of pollution problems. Indeed, many people consider the modern environmental movement to have started with the publication in 1962 of Rachel Carson's classic Silent Spring, which described the results of the misuse of DDT and other pesticides. In the fable that began that volume, she wrote: "It was a spring without voices. On the mornings that had once throbbed with the dawn chorus of robins, catbirds, doves, jays, wrens, and scores of other bird voices there was now no sound; only silence lay over the fields and woods and marsh." Silent Spring was heavily attacked by the pesticide industry and by narrowly trained entomologists, but its scientific foundation has stood the test of time. Misuse of pesticides is now widely recognized to threaten not only bird communities but human communities as well.

The potentially lethal impact of DDT on birds was first noted in the late 1950s when spraying to control the beetles that carry Dutch elm disease led to a slaughter of robins in Michigan and elsewhere. Researchers discovered that earthworms were accumulating the persistent pesticide and that the robins eating them were being poisoned. Other birds fell victim, too. Gradually, thanks in no small part to Carson's book, gigantic "broadcast spray" programs were brought under control.

But DDT, its breakdown products, and the other chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides (and nonpesticide chlorinated hydrocarbons such as PCBs) posed a more insidious threat to birds. Because these poisons are persistent they tend to concentrate as they move through the feeding sequences in communities that ecologists call "food chains." For example, in most marine communities, the living weight (biomass) of fish-eating birds is less than that of the fishes they eat. However, because chlorinated hydrocarbons accumulate in fatty tissues, when a ton of contaminated fishes is turned into 200 pounds of seabirds, most of the DDT from the numerous fishes ends up in a relatively few birds. As a result, the birds have a higher level of contamination per pound than the fishes. If Peregrine Falcons feed on the seabirds, the concentration becomes higher still. With several concentrating steps in the food chain below the level of fishes (for instance, tiny aquatic plants crustacea small fishes), very slight environmental contamination can be turned into a heavy pesticide load in birds at the top of the food chain. In one Long Island estuary, concentrations of less than a tenth of a part per million (PPM) of DDT in aquatic plants and plankton resulted in concentrations of 3-25 PPM in gulls, terns, cormorants, mergansers, herons, and ospreys.

"Bioconcentration" of pesticides in birds high on food chains occurs not only because there is usually reduced biomass at each step in those chains, but also because predatory birds tend to live a long time. They may take in only a little DDT per day, but they keep most of what they get, and they live many days.

SSo fucking DDumb, here are the facts.
 

So say workers at the Mojave Desert solar farm outside Vegas for the smoke from birds caught in the intense heat of mirrors. No big deal. After all, Green Power is far more important than migratory routes or the extinction of bird species.
Read more of this disgusting story @ http://www.rightwingnews.com/environment/brightsource-solar-plant-workers-have-a-name-for-birds-streamers/

Actually, this thread sounds (or smells) like another fossil fuel industry propaganda induced rightwingnut brainfart.

Emerging solar plants scorch birds in mid-air
IVANPAH DRY LAKE, Calif. (AP) — Workers at a state-of-the-art solar plant in the Mojave Desert have a name for birds that fly through the plant's concentrated sun rays — "streamers," for the smoke plume that comes from birds that ignite in midair. Federal wildlife investigators who visited the BrightSource Energy plant last year and watched as birds burned and fell, reporting an average of one "streamer" every two minutes....


So....some perspective.....an average of one bird "every two minutes", or 30 birds an hour are supposedly dying at this plant, but only during the full daylight hours when the sun's energy is strong enough, so no early mornings or evenings....to be generous, call it 10 hours a day although it would usually be less than that....so that makes it about 300 birds a day....times 365 days per year equals 109,500 bird deaths per year....an unfortunately high number that everyone hopes can be reduced through better designs and technological tricks to keep the birds away.....and seemingly a large amount until you consider the numbers involved in all of the other ways that human activities, structures and pets are killing birds in America.....

* Striking windows is estimated to kill close to 975 million birds per year.
* As many as 50 million bird deaths are estimated to occur from collisions with communication towers (cell phone and digital TV).
* Collisions with high tension power lines (and electrocutions) are estimated to kill around 175 million birds per year.
* Collisions with cars, trucks and other vehicles are believed to kill about 60 million birds a year.
* Hunters kill about 15 million birds per year in North America.
* "Pesticides may kill 72 million birds per year or possibly many more. The sub lethal effects of pesticides may also make the birds more susceptible to predators or unable to reproduce, essentially killing them."
* "Oil spills kill hundreds of thousands of birds a year or more."
* "Oil and wastewater pits may kill up to 2 million birds per year."
* Lead in the form of bullets and shot and fishing sinkers is ingested by the birds, ground up in the gizzard and absorbed by the body and causes a large but unknown number of bird deaths per year, perhaps as much as 4% of the total waterfowl population.
* All of the wind turbines in the country are estimated to kill about 33 thousand birds a year.

(source - Sibley Guides - Causes of Bird Mortality)

*** AND THEN there's the cats that people keep or have let escape to live wild...

Cats kill more than one billion birds each year
New estimate suggests hunting felines take bigger bite than expected out of wildlife

ScienceNews
BY SUSAN MILIUS
JANUARY 29, 2013
Domestic cats kill many more wild birds in the United States than scientists thought, according to a new analysis. Cats may rank as the biggest immediate danger that living around people brings to wildlife, researchers say. Cats may be killing far more birds each year than previously thought, as well as substantial numbers of mammals, says a new analysis based on hunting studies from around the world. America’s cats, including housecats that adventure outdoors and feral cats, kill between 1.3 billion and 4.0 billion birds in a year, says Peter Marra of the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute in Washington, D.C., who led the team that performed the analysis.

975 million
50 million
175 million
60 million
15 million
72 million
2 million
Call it 2 billion
Adds up to about
3,349,000,000 birds killed per year by human activities and structures
Or, if the upper range of the housecat caused deaths is true, possibly as high as
5,349,000,000 dead birds per year in just the USA because of humans.


But the anti-environmental, "coal-rolling", rightwingnuts have their panties in a twist over 110,000 possible bird deaths per year at a solar plant??? LOL. All of the other human related causes of bird deaths amount to almost that many (110,000) bird deaths every six hours.

Or could it be that their puppetmasters, the billionaire owners of the fossil fuel industry who oppose solar power as a threat to their profits, have filled their heads with meaningless nonsense propaganda about a relatively insignificant number of bird deaths in order to denigrate solar power? Oil spills and oil drilling and oil refining wastewater pits kill several million birds a year so the hypocrisy of these rightwingnut AGW deniers stinks to high heaven.




I love how un precise this ridiculous study is. There is nothing more than large scale hand waving trying to obfuscate the fact that these wind farms are destroying endangered birds. Cats can't catch an endangered bird idiot.

I find it interesting that these cats are so destructive and yet we don't see the carcasses all over the place like we do with wind farms and solar farms. There aren't piles of dead birds around the buildings that so aggressively leap out and kill the birds flying around.

I will grant you that cars and other vehicles do indeed kill birds, I've even hit one. One...in nearly 60 years of driving with well over a million and a half miles driven.
 
But they still want to use DDT.
Tens of thousands of people dies every year from mosquito-borne diseases. All that could be stopped by spraying DDT on the habitats of the insects.

DDT killed exponentially more birds than solar and wind power plants combined.

DDT almost completely wiped out the Bald Eagle, the Golden Eagle, the Peregrine Falcon, and countless other birds of prey.



The Altamont wind farm near Livermore has cut the endangered raptor population by half in 20 years.

Locally, possibly. Nationally, certainly not.




I disagree. Raptors have fairly well known flyways and those are the very areas that they wish to build wind farms at.
 

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