Free will? or god's will?

[Luddly Neddite]

You have free will to choose god or not, but if you don't choose god, you burn for all eternity.
Yeah, Some choice!

ISIL burns people to death ONCE and its over quickly and we hate them for it.

God burns people forever and we worship him for it.

Blatant blackmail of the worse kind - You bow down to me or I'll fry you for all of eternity.

WTF?

Your perception is all messed up. Its okay though because most who claim to know and understand the Bible won't hear either and theirs is messed up too.

God does not burn humans. It is the spiritual hosts within that burn eternally when their own evil is chosen.

The Lord does not force anyone. Again this is a false precept among many. You are given choices, "choose that which is good". If you do not and choose evil rather than good you put yourself into subjection. No blackmail to it. Pretty basic, if you have chosen to be a druggy or a theif or whatever you decide, you choose your own path. If you choose to deny truth when it finds you then you remain asleep 'dead' to the spirit of that portion in yourself (the soul in you) which is created to grow, learn and become an eternal being. If you deny, don't believe or mistreat that portion within yourself it is through your own choice. If you can't find a portion of it to believe in you simply remain as a dead spiritual soul being.

Thank you for being civil, but that's not what I learned in Sunday school.

So that I am sure I understand what you wrote, I"m going to say it back to you ...

If I do not believe in a god, there is something within me that will cause me to "burn eternally".

Is that what you said?

And, just to let you know, I"m logging off soon but I will come back to this thread tomorrow.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good. Very Good. Keep trying a civil discussion, LN.

 

[RandomVariable]

What ever maks you thing a god is nice, LN?

The Greeks, Romans, and Vikings, among others, knew what you don't.

Where did I EVER say I think god is "nice"?

What I believe is that those who made up this god are monsters. But, if they didn't make him a monster who threatens eternal hellfire, who would be dumb enough to buy it?

And I use the word "buy" on purpose.

The whole legend and myth of a god comes from things like a failed crop, a long hungry winter, still born babies. Pray to the skies and when your crops produce or a baby lives, you thank your god. If the crops fail again, if the next baby dies, ""its god's will".

I'm reading an interesting history of the 14-16th century ... it is thought that Anne Bolelyn had only one baby that lived because she was Rh Neg but at that time, they believed it was because she consorted with witches.

You would make a great North Korean.

Why? Because I'm daring to actually ask a question?

Someone wants you to hate someone else and you are eating it up. You would be the star of the Communist Party. Ranting about the wicked, wicked West.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

You have free will to choose god or not, but if you don't choose god, you burn for all eternity.
Yeah, Some choice!

ISIL burns people to death ONCE and its over quickly and we hate them for it.

God burns people forever and we worship him for it.

Blatant blackmail of the worse kind - You bow down to me or I'll fry you for all of eternity.

WTF?

Your perception is all messed up. Its okay though because most who claim to know and understand the Bible won't hear either and theirs is messed up too.

God does not burn humans. It is the spiritual hosts within that burn eternally when their own evil is chosen.

The Lord does not force anyone. Again this is a false precept among many. You are given choices, "choose that which is good". If you do not and choose evil rather than good you put yourself into subjection. No blackmail to it. Pretty basic, if you have chosen to be a druggy or a theif or whatever you decide, you choose your own path. If you choose to deny truth when it finds you then you remain asleep 'dead' to the spirit of that portion in yourself (the soul in you) which is created to grow, learn and become an eternal being. If you deny, don't believe or mistreat that portion within yourself it is through your own choice. If you can't find a portion of it to believe in you simply remain as a dead spiritual soul being.

RodISHI

"choosing good or evil"

The concept as well as the reality of "sin" is another area I'm very curious about and honestly do not understand.

I believe that most people do not "sin". For the most part, people live within the law though I guess that's not necessarily what is meant by sinning.

Believers say 'we all sin" but I just don't see it. Day to day, I don't sin. I don't harm others and in fact go out of my way not to harm others. How do I sin? How do YOU sin?

For that matter, what is "sin" as opposed to breaking the law?

 

[RandomVariable]

 

[RodISHI]

You have free will to choose god or not, but if you don't choose god, you burn for all eternity.
Yeah, Some choice!

ISIL burns people to death ONCE and its over quickly and we hate them for it.

God burns people forever and we worship him for it.

Blatant blackmail of the worse kind - You bow down to me or I'll fry you for all of eternity.

WTF?

Your perception is all messed up. Its okay though because most who claim to know and understand the Bible won't hear either and theirs is messed up too.

God does not burn humans. It is the spiritual hosts within that burn eternally when their own evil is chosen.

The Lord does not force anyone. Again this is a false precept among many. You are given choices, "choose that which is good". If you do not and choose evil rather than good you put yourself into subjection. No blackmail to it. Pretty basic, if you have chosen to be a druggy or a theif or whatever you decide, you choose your own path. If you choose to deny truth when it finds you then you remain asleep 'dead' to the spirit of that portion in yourself (the soul in you) which is created to grow, learn and become an eternal being. If you deny, don't believe or mistreat that portion within yourself it is through your own choice. If you can't find a portion of it to believe in you simply remain as a dead spiritual soul being.

RodISHI

"choosing good or evil"

The concept as well as the reality of "sin" is another area I'm very curious about and honestly do not understand.

I believe that most people do not "sin". For the most part, people live within the law though I guess that's not necessarily what is meant by sinning.

Believers say 'we all sin" but I just don't see it. Day to day, I don't sin. I don't harm others and in fact go out of my way not to harm others. How do I sin? How do YOU sin?

For that matter, what is "sin" as opposed to breaking the law?

Maybe we should discuss what is "sin" or "a sinful nature" in a thread of itself. It is late in the evening for today but I'll discuss this with Rod and if we can I will start a thread on the subject tomorrow.

 

[onefour1]

Satan is a being who, in the pre-mortal existence, presented a plan to rule by force. It was rejected by God. Satan rebelled and was cast into the earth along with his followers. They were denied the opportunity to receive bodies. They exist only as spirits.

Link?

Moses 4:1-4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

2 Nephi 2:17
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Abraham 3:25-28
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

those who didn't keep their first estate in the pre-mortal existence were denied the opportunity to have a body when we came to this earth or second estate. For this reason evil spirit try to possess the bodies of those who have bodies.

 

[Pogo]

Sorry -- I meant a credible link.

Preferably one that isn't 2500 years old and then edited in the fourth century by an emperor building a propaganda machine to run a theocracy. You know, like an actual quote from "Satan"?

 

[September]

Satan is a being who, in the pre-mortal existence, presented a plan to rule by force. It was rejected by God. Satan rebelled and was cast into the earth along with his followers. They were denied the opportunity to receive bodies. They exist only as spirits. Those of us who have bodies in this life were valiant followers of the Father and his son Jesus Christ. However, after coming to this life and having a veil placed over our minds, many of us on earth have moved over to the other side being deceived and not truly knowing who they once were.

DA FUQ???​

 

[September]

Link?

Moses 4:1-4
2 Nephi 2:17
Abraham 3:25-28

 

[September]

 

[JakeStarkey]

Satan is a being who, in the pre-mortal existence, presented a plan to rule by force. It was rejected by God. Satan rebelled and was cast into the earth along with his followers. They were denied the opportunity to receive bodies. They exist only as spirits. Those of us who have bodies in this life were valiant followers of the Father and his son Jesus Christ. However, after coming to this life and having a veil placed over our minds, many of us on earth have moved over to the other side being deceived and not truly knowing who they once were.

DA FUQ???​

Standard Mormonism, Goddess.

 

[Bonzi]

How can anyone worship a god who drowns all of humankind and all but two each non-human animals?

How can anyone worship a god who gives babies diseases? Causes babies to be shot and killed by other babies?

If there is a god, he obviously does not value life at all. More than that, he purposely causes the most innocent among us incredible pain.

Because God is perfect and is our creator. The clay does NOT instruct the potter.
If you think you know better than God and have a better moral compass, you have a right to live that way, but I don't think it will pan out well for you...........

God love you more than any human being ever could. He came down in human form and suffered immeasurably so we can have a place with Him.

Pain, suffering, disease, natural disasters were not in God's original plan. The introduction of sin into the world brought this about.

Lastly, this life, on Earthy is like a millisecond compared to eternity.
We place too much emphasis on THIS part of our existence. Living on this planet, in these bodies that most won't survive even 100 years....

Again, you have a right to blow all this off as nonsense, but if you want to understand a true Christian, you need to have an open mind, and to become one, an open heart.

 

[Bonzi]

You have free will to choose god or not, but if you don't choose god, you burn for all eternity.
Yeah, Some choice!

Submission to God is not about avoiding hell.
It's about choosing Life!

"Submission"? Brah, that ain't happening. You can kiss as many carpets a day that you want, but I tell ya, it ain't going down over here. Ever.

He loves you - he wants you to love Him too.
He wants you to willingly submit to Him, because He love you - unconditionally.... in a way no other can ever love you.....

That is the key word, submit or else...(thunder clasps)How else can He show love but through submission?

You are to submit to Him willingly. It means nothing with that kind of attitude!
Think of it like raising a child. A child wants their own way, but, as parents, we have to try to teach them (and stop them) from doing things that are detrimental to themselves. The child thinks they know best or that their parents are just being "meanies, trying to hold them down" or "don't want them to enjoy life" etc etc.

God is not our "parent" waiting to bring the hammer down.
God is the PERFECT parent, wanting only the BEST for us. We have to TRUST Him!

 

[Moonglow]

You have free will to choose god or not, but if you don't choose god, you burn for all eternity.
Yeah, Some choice!

Submission to God is not about avoiding hell.
It's about choosing Life!

"Submission"? Brah, that ain't happening. You can kiss as many carpets a day that you want, but I tell ya, it ain't going down over here. Ever.

He loves you - he wants you to love Him too.
He wants you to willingly submit to Him, because He love you - unconditionally.... in a way no other can ever love you.....

That is the key word, submit or else...(thunder clasps)How else can He show love but through submission?

You are to submit to Him willingly. It means nothing with that kind of attitude!
Think of it like raising a child. A child wants their own way, but, as parents, we have to try to teach them (and stop them) from doing things that are detrimental to themselves. The child thinks they know best or that their parents are just being "meanies, trying to hold them down" or "don't want them to enjoy life" etc etc.

God is not our "parent" waiting to bring the hammer down.
God is the PERFECT parent, wanting only the BEST for us. We have to TRUST Him!

So now you are a child, as an adult? Normally parents do not threaten their children with death if they do something wrong....Should God be prosecuted for child endangerment?

 

[Bonzi]

Submission to God is not about avoiding hell.
It's about choosing Life!

"Submission"? Brah, that ain't happening. You can kiss as many carpets a day that you want, but I tell ya, it ain't going down over here. Ever.

He loves you - he wants you to love Him too.
He wants you to willingly submit to Him, because He love you - unconditionally.... in a way no other can ever love you.....

That is the key word, submit or else...(thunder clasps)How else can He show love but through submission?

You are to submit to Him willingly. It means nothing with that kind of attitude!
Think of it like raising a child. A child wants their own way, but, as parents, we have to try to teach them (and stop them) from doing things that are detrimental to themselves. The child thinks they know best or that their parents are just being "meanies, trying to hold them down" or "don't want them to enjoy life" etc etc.

God is not our "parent" waiting to bring the hammer down.
God is the PERFECT parent, wanting only the BEST for us. We have to TRUST Him!

So now you are a child, as an adult? Normally parents do not threaten their children with death if they do something wrong....Should God be prosecuted for child endangerment?

It was just an example of how, regardless of what you think, he is our creator and eternal Father.
You don't have to believe that. You don't even have to "agree" with His ways, but they are perfect whether you agree (or understand) or not.

Your lack of belief don't change eternal truths.
Your lack of faith doesn't change eternal truths.
Your lack of understanding doesn't change eternal truths.

I am a witness to my Faith. I am not a Biblical scholar or theologian.

 

[RandomVariable]

I am beginning to believe if one is searching for God scripture is a terrible place to start. It is the place to come to but starting out I think there are much better places to find God than in His word.

 

[Bonzi]

I am beginning to believe if one is searching for God scripture is a terrible place to start. It is the place to come to but starting out I think there are much better places to find God than in His word.

I don't think there is any one place to find God. Some find Him in scripture.... some in nature .... some find Him on something scribbled on a subway wall.... but he will reveal himself to you, some how, some way, at some time, and all you have to do is say yes.........

 

[Taz]

"Submission"? Brah, that ain't happening. You can kiss as many carpets a day that you want, but I tell ya, it ain't going down over here. Ever.

He loves you - he wants you to love Him too.
He wants you to willingly submit to Him, because He love you - unconditionally.... in a way no other can ever love you.....

That is the key word, submit or else...(thunder clasps)How else can He show love but through submission?

You are to submit to Him willingly. It means nothing with that kind of attitude!
Think of it like raising a child. A child wants their own way, but, as parents, we have to try to teach them (and stop them) from doing things that are detrimental to themselves. The child thinks they know best or that their parents are just being "meanies, trying to hold them down" or "don't want them to enjoy life" etc etc.

God is not our "parent" waiting to bring the hammer down.
God is the PERFECT parent, wanting only the BEST for us. We have to TRUST Him!

So now you are a child, as an adult? Normally parents do not threaten their children with death if they do something wrong....Should God be prosecuted for child endangerment?

It was just an example of how, regardless of what you think, he is our creator and eternal Father.
You don't have to believe that. You don't even have to "agree" with His ways, but they are perfect whether you agree (or understand) or not.

Your lack of belief don't change eternal truths.
Your lack of faith doesn't change eternal truths.
Your lack of understanding doesn't change eternal truths.

I am a witness to my Faith. I am not a Biblical scholar or theologian.

Your lack of proof of god make your supposed eternal truths meaningless.

 

[Bonzi]

Your lack of proof of god make your supposed eternal truths meaningless

Proof can be construed in many ways.
What your "demands" are doesn't change ANY truth.
If you are your own God anyway, what difference does it matter what anyone else thinks or believes to you?