Ford losing customers after discontinuing cars.... But I said that

[Frannie]

Wrong again

Ford and Chevy Are Losing Buyers after Discontinuing Compact Cars

Yawning

Wow! What an expert.....

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

 

[Ringel05]

Wow! What an expert.....

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

 

[Frannie]

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

 

[Andylusion]

Those are non-union. The cost of labor is lower, and thus they are able to make smaller cars and still be profitable.

Nope many of those cars are built right here

Yeah, and they are non-union.

Toyota is non-union. Honda is non-union. The costs of union labor is much higher, than that of non-union. This is well documented.

It's a little dated, but still fairly accurate to how different the cost of labor is, between Ford and other Domestic unionized automakers, and the Japanese ones.

But again the point is, with larger, higher value you vehicles, the domestics can still be profitable. But for smaller cheaper cars, the Japanese makers have a huge advantage that they can produce lower value cars, and still make a profit because of the lower labor costs.

No amount of intelligence can change that fact for the domestics.

Can you prove that an american building a honda is paid less than an american building a ford

Need numbers

Do you mean other than the New York Times article directly detailing the difference in labor costs?

Foreign automakers pay from $38 to $65 per hour to non-union workers

As it stands, per-hour labor rates including benefits are $58 at General Motors, $57 at Ford, and $48 at Fiat-Chrysler

The Center for Automotive Research released a study of labor rates (including benefits) that put numbers to what the imports pay: Mercedes-Benz pays the most, at an average of $65 per hour, Volkswagen pays the least, at $38 per hour, and BMW is just a hair above that at $39 per hour. Among the Detroit competitors, Honda workers earn an average of $49 per hour, at Toyota it's $48 per hour, Nissan is $42 per hour, and Hyundai-Kia pays $41 per hour.

There you go.

Toyota to Close Only Union Factory In U.S.

There will be little celebrating come Labor Day for the thousands of union workers who’ve been anxiously waiting for the news they did not want to hear: In March, Toyota will close its New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, California.

It's the company's only unionized plant in the United States.
​

My understanding was that Toyota had no more union plants in North America. In fact, I knew a girl who accidentally said something about unionizing (out of frustration) in a plant in Canada, and was fired the following day.

As far as I understand Toyota is absolutely not Unionized.

Well since ford pays so much perhaps they should hire some Jap engineers who could figure out how Ford can make a profitable car before Ford loses 100 percent of the American car market share.

They can start by putting a muffler on the mustang that is not a thousand dollar option

Lol

See neither you or ford can win as an American by giving away share to Japan and Germany

Well again... if the labor costs too much, there is no way to 'engineer' lower costing labor.

I mean you do realize that tossing expensive engineers at a money losing project, does not always equal making it profitable, right? My uncle was an engineer. He was pulling down $150K a year. You throw multiple teams of engineers on a multi-year project, and that is easily millions or billions of dollars.

Why Does It Cost So Much For Automakers To Develop New Models?

The rough estimates, are that it takes an average of four years, to go from concept to production. Four years, to get a car from a pencil sketch, to a working model.

During that time, the company will spend on average, between $1 Billion at the low end, to $6 Billion at the top end.

And then you have to recoup that cost, by selling a $20,000 car.

Ford's profit margin is barely 8.7%. But I wager that the profit margin on smaller cars is less than half that, because that's the average profit margin, which includes all of Ford's much higher priced vehicles.

But 8.7% of $20K, is a profit of $1,740 per car. How many cars do you need to sell, to make back just a Billion dollars in capital investment? Ford's top selling passenger car, only sold about 100,000 last year. It would take years on years just to break even, and that assumes that the profit margin is 8.7%, which for low end cars I promise you it isn't.

We don't have exact numbers because most manufactures keep that information hidden. You can estimate based on shareholder relations publications, and we can see how much money was spent on R&D, and see profit levels from different divisions. But it's still an estimate.

However, while all this is interesting, it misses a key problem.

The key issue with your logic, is that you are ignoring market reactions.

Let me explain. You are thinking that if they simply hired enough engineers, they could perhaps engineer a cheaper product. Like if you hired engineers, and they designed a cheaper engine, that cost half as much, and still performed as well.

And that is in theory possible.

But the problem, is the market will react to that. The market doesn't just sit there, and let you take over.

Say you open a lemonade stand, and someone opens another stand a block away from you. You are just barely making a profit, and you look down and see they are selling the same lemonade for a $1 less a cup. You start investigating. How are they doing that? You find out that they were buying straws in bulk, while you were buying little 10-packs that are expensive.

What are you going to do? You are going to also start buying in bulk, and then lower your price by $1, so you avoid losing customers and going out of business.

The same is true everywhere. Yeah, you might hire some engineers that design a cheaper engine that is just as good. But the moment you do that, Toyota is going to look over, and investigate this cheaper engine, and then design their own cheaper engine.

Then you are back to the same situation you were in before, where the cost of Union labor, is still higher than the cost of Japanese non-union labor.

Whatever money saving engineering they do at Ford, or GM, or Chrysler, is all going to be looked at, investigated, and designed by the Japanese or other companies.

And in the end, it will be back to a difference in labor costs.

There is only one solution that will allow domestic auto manufacturers to compete with non-union manufacturers.... get rid of the Unions. You have to lower the cost of labor, and then you can compete on equal grounds. No amount of engineering is going to fix that.

 

[Ringel05]

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.

 

[Frannie]

Nope many of those cars are built right here

Yeah, and they are non-union.

Toyota is non-union. Honda is non-union. The costs of union labor is much higher, than that of non-union. This is well documented.

It's a little dated, but still fairly accurate to how different the cost of labor is, between Ford and other Domestic unionized automakers, and the Japanese ones.

But again the point is, with larger, higher value you vehicles, the domestics can still be profitable. But for smaller cheaper cars, the Japanese makers have a huge advantage that they can produce lower value cars, and still make a profit because of the lower labor costs.

No amount of intelligence can change that fact for the domestics.

Can you prove that an american building a honda is paid less than an american building a ford

Need numbers

Do you mean other than the New York Times article directly detailing the difference in labor costs?

Foreign automakers pay from $38 to $65 per hour to non-union workers

As it stands, per-hour labor rates including benefits are $58 at General Motors, $57 at Ford, and $48 at Fiat-Chrysler

The Center for Automotive Research released a study of labor rates (including benefits) that put numbers to what the imports pay: Mercedes-Benz pays the most, at an average of $65 per hour, Volkswagen pays the least, at $38 per hour, and BMW is just a hair above that at $39 per hour. Among the Detroit competitors, Honda workers earn an average of $49 per hour, at Toyota it's $48 per hour, Nissan is $42 per hour, and Hyundai-Kia pays $41 per hour.

There you go.

Toyota to Close Only Union Factory In U.S.

There will be little celebrating come Labor Day for the thousands of union workers who’ve been anxiously waiting for the news they did not want to hear: In March, Toyota will close its New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, California.

It's the company's only unionized plant in the United States.
​

My understanding was that Toyota had no more union plants in North America. In fact, I knew a girl who accidentally said something about unionizing (out of frustration) in a plant in Canada, and was fired the following day.

As far as I understand Toyota is absolutely not Unionized.

Well since ford pays so much perhaps they should hire some Jap engineers who could figure out how Ford can make a profitable car before Ford loses 100 percent of the American car market share.

They can start by putting a muffler on the mustang that is not a thousand dollar option

Lol

See neither you or ford can win as an American by giving away share to Japan and Germany

Well again... if the labor costs too much, there is no way to 'engineer' lower costing labor.

I mean you do realize that tossing expensive engineers at a money losing project, does not always equal making it profitable, right? My uncle was an engineer. He was pulling down $150K a year. You throw multiple teams of engineers on a multi-year project, and that is easily millions or billions of dollars.

Why Does It Cost So Much For Automakers To Develop New Models?

The rough estimates, are that it takes an average of four years, to go from concept to production. Four years, to get a car from a pencil sketch, to a working model.

During that time, the company will spend on average, between $1 Billion at the low end, to $6 Billion at the top end.

And then you have to recoup that cost, by selling a $20,000 car.

View attachment 289978

Ford's profit margin is barely 8.7%. But I wager that the profit margin on smaller cars is less than half that, because that's the average profit margin, which includes all of Ford's much higher priced vehicles.

But 8.7% of $20K, is a profit of $1,740 per car. How many cars do you need to sell, to make back just a Billion dollars in capital investment? Ford's top selling passenger car, only sold about 100,000 last year. It would take years on years just to break even, and that assumes that the profit margin is 8.7%, which for low end cars I promise you it isn't.

We don't have exact numbers because most manufactures keep that information hidden. You can estimate based on shareholder relations publications, and we can see how much money was spent on R&D, and see profit levels from different divisions. But it's still an estimate.

However, while all this is interesting, it misses a key problem.

The key issue with your logic, is that you are ignoring market reactions.

Let me explain. You are thinking that if they simply hired enough engineers, they could perhaps engineer a cheaper product. Like if you hired engineers, and they designed a cheaper engine, that cost half as much, and still performed as well.

And that is in theory possible.

But the problem, is the market will react to that. The market doesn't just sit there, and let you take over.

Say you open a lemonade stand, and someone opens another stand a block away from you. You are just barely making a profit, and you look down and see they are selling the same lemonade for a $1 less a cup. You start investigating. How are they doing that? You find out that they were buying straws in bulk, while you were buying little 10-packs that are expensive.

What are you going to do? You are going to also start buying in bulk, and then lower your price by $1, so you avoid losing customers and going out of business.

The same is true everywhere. Yeah, you might hire some engineers that design a cheaper engine that is just as good. But the moment you do that, Toyota is going to look over, and investigate this cheaper engine, and then design their own cheaper engine.

Then you are back to the same situation you were in before, where the cost of Union labor, is still higher than the cost of Japanese non-union labor.

Whatever money saving engineering they do at Ford, or GM, or Chrysler, is all going to be looked at, investigated, and designed by the Japanese or other companies.

And in the end, it will be back to a difference in labor costs.

There is only one solution that will allow domestic auto manufacturers to compete with non-union manufacturers.... get rid of the Unions. You have to lower the cost of labor, and then you can compete on equal grounds. No amount of engineering is going to fix that.

Abandoning a losing project makes economic sense in the short term, however admitting that a company can not compete and as a result handing untold billions more in profits to foreign competitors is only a long range path to bankruptcy.

What you fail to understand is that if wages are the problem Ford is paying those same wages to those building trucks and Nissan, Toyota and Honda will now have more billions to design Trucks...…. Ford has already given up

You want funny, read this

4 cylinder toy motor and dash rattle included
2019 Ford Ranger Lariat in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford Ranger | Toms Ford Inc

I always wanted a 2.3 liter engine in a pickup

No other option exist

or this for 75 grand

2020 Ford F-150 Limited in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford F-150 | Toms Ford Inc

Crack not included

 

[Frannie]

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.

Yea the FBI said that too...…………….Then disappeared tails between their legs

True story

 

[Ringel05]

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.

Yea the FBI said that too...…………….Then disappeared tails between their legs

True story

Is that why you're a USMB Online Insane Asylum inmate?

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, and they are non-union.

Toyota is non-union. Honda is non-union. The costs of union labor is much higher, than that of non-union. This is well documented.

It's a little dated, but still fairly accurate to how different the cost of labor is, between Ford and other Domestic unionized automakers, and the Japanese ones.

But again the point is, with larger, higher value you vehicles, the domestics can still be profitable. But for smaller cheaper cars, the Japanese makers have a huge advantage that they can produce lower value cars, and still make a profit because of the lower labor costs.

No amount of intelligence can change that fact for the domestics.

Can you prove that an american building a honda is paid less than an american building a ford

Need numbers

Do you mean other than the New York Times article directly detailing the difference in labor costs?

Foreign automakers pay from $38 to $65 per hour to non-union workers

As it stands, per-hour labor rates including benefits are $58 at General Motors, $57 at Ford, and $48 at Fiat-Chrysler

The Center for Automotive Research released a study of labor rates (including benefits) that put numbers to what the imports pay: Mercedes-Benz pays the most, at an average of $65 per hour, Volkswagen pays the least, at $38 per hour, and BMW is just a hair above that at $39 per hour. Among the Detroit competitors, Honda workers earn an average of $49 per hour, at Toyota it's $48 per hour, Nissan is $42 per hour, and Hyundai-Kia pays $41 per hour.

There you go.

Toyota to Close Only Union Factory In U.S.

There will be little celebrating come Labor Day for the thousands of union workers who’ve been anxiously waiting for the news they did not want to hear: In March, Toyota will close its New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, California.

It's the company's only unionized plant in the United States.
​

My understanding was that Toyota had no more union plants in North America. In fact, I knew a girl who accidentally said something about unionizing (out of frustration) in a plant in Canada, and was fired the following day.

As far as I understand Toyota is absolutely not Unionized.

Well since ford pays so much perhaps they should hire some Jap engineers who could figure out how Ford can make a profitable car before Ford loses 100 percent of the American car market share.

They can start by putting a muffler on the mustang that is not a thousand dollar option

Lol

See neither you or ford can win as an American by giving away share to Japan and Germany

Well again... if the labor costs too much, there is no way to 'engineer' lower costing labor.

I mean you do realize that tossing expensive engineers at a money losing project, does not always equal making it profitable, right? My uncle was an engineer. He was pulling down $150K a year. You throw multiple teams of engineers on a multi-year project, and that is easily millions or billions of dollars.

Why Does It Cost So Much For Automakers To Develop New Models?

The rough estimates, are that it takes an average of four years, to go from concept to production. Four years, to get a car from a pencil sketch, to a working model.

During that time, the company will spend on average, between $1 Billion at the low end, to $6 Billion at the top end.

And then you have to recoup that cost, by selling a $20,000 car.

View attachment 289978

Ford's profit margin is barely 8.7%. But I wager that the profit margin on smaller cars is less than half that, because that's the average profit margin, which includes all of Ford's much higher priced vehicles.

But 8.7% of $20K, is a profit of $1,740 per car. How many cars do you need to sell, to make back just a Billion dollars in capital investment? Ford's top selling passenger car, only sold about 100,000 last year. It would take years on years just to break even, and that assumes that the profit margin is 8.7%, which for low end cars I promise you it isn't.

We don't have exact numbers because most manufactures keep that information hidden. You can estimate based on shareholder relations publications, and we can see how much money was spent on R&D, and see profit levels from different divisions. But it's still an estimate.

However, while all this is interesting, it misses a key problem.

The key issue with your logic, is that you are ignoring market reactions.

Let me explain. You are thinking that if they simply hired enough engineers, they could perhaps engineer a cheaper product. Like if you hired engineers, and they designed a cheaper engine, that cost half as much, and still performed as well.

And that is in theory possible.

But the problem, is the market will react to that. The market doesn't just sit there, and let you take over.

Say you open a lemonade stand, and someone opens another stand a block away from you. You are just barely making a profit, and you look down and see they are selling the same lemonade for a $1 less a cup. You start investigating. How are they doing that? You find out that they were buying straws in bulk, while you were buying little 10-packs that are expensive.

What are you going to do? You are going to also start buying in bulk, and then lower your price by $1, so you avoid losing customers and going out of business.

The same is true everywhere. Yeah, you might hire some engineers that design a cheaper engine that is just as good. But the moment you do that, Toyota is going to look over, and investigate this cheaper engine, and then design their own cheaper engine.

Then you are back to the same situation you were in before, where the cost of Union labor, is still higher than the cost of Japanese non-union labor.

Whatever money saving engineering they do at Ford, or GM, or Chrysler, is all going to be looked at, investigated, and designed by the Japanese or other companies.

And in the end, it will be back to a difference in labor costs.

There is only one solution that will allow domestic auto manufacturers to compete with non-union manufacturers.... get rid of the Unions. You have to lower the cost of labor, and then you can compete on equal grounds. No amount of engineering is going to fix that.

Abandoning a losing project makes economic sense in the short term, however admitting that a company can not compete and as a result handing untold billions more in profits to foreign competitors is only a long range path to bankruptcy.

What you fail to understand is that if wages are the problem Ford is paying those same wages to those building trucks and Nissan, Toyota and Honda will now have more billions to design Trucks...…. Ford has already given up

You want funny, read this

4 cylinder toy motor and dash rattle included
2019 Ford Ranger Lariat in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford Ranger | Toms Ford Inc

I always wanted a 2.3 liter engine in a pickup

No other option exist

or this for 75 grand

2020 Ford F-150 Limited in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford F-150 | Toms Ford Inc

Crack not included

Everything you said there, I would agree at some level. I don't think they are 'handing billions in profits to" other companies, only because they were not making billions in profits.

The low end cars were not profitable. So they are not handing a dollar of profits to anyone, because they were losing money, not gaining it.

If you and me are running competing lemonade stands, and I'm losing money on every cup of lemonade sold.... me selling off my money losing stand to you, isn't giving you profits.... because I had no profits. That's why I sold it.

However, I would agree with you that Ford and GM and Chrysler leaving the low end market, is only a temporary fix. In the short term, they stop the money loss, but in the long term, the same problem will simply move up the chain.

The same labor cost issue, that made them noncompetitive in the low end market, will simply move up to the high end market.

Eventually the same cheaper labor that allowed Toyota to defeat Ford in the cheap car market, will also allow them to defeat Ford in the mid-size truck market. It's just a matter of time.

At some point, all these companies will need to face off with the Unions. They either need to close all their union plants, and open all non-union plants.... or they need to directly force the Unions into negotiating their contracts, for much lower benefits and wages.

I don't see that happening. The bottom line is, I don't see the big three being able to shake off the Unions, or getting them to make heavy concessions.

So my long term view on this...... I think that we will someday, and perhaps even soon, see a time where the big three auto makers are no longer dominate in the US market. I think we will see all three of them end up subsidiaries, or perhaps niche players in the market.

Now I don't know when that will happen, but I think that is the future of the US auto market. The only chance is if we have a really bad crash, that causes all of them to file for bankruptcy, and that either forces the Unions out, or forces the Unions into heavy concessions.

And I don't see that as likely either. When GM filed bankruptcy, the Obama Government bent over backwards to help the Unions. The Unions were rewarded for not making the concessions that GM needed to avoid bankruptcy. So there is little incentive for Unions to help Ford stay dominate in the market.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Ford will be just fine. Anyone believing otherwise is an idiot.

Ford can not produce a profitable car and now they think people are all going to buy 50k trucks.

LOL in what world

The F150 is the best selling truck in the country.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Wow! What an expert.....

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

 

[rightwinger]

Seems like it was a good business decision. Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well. If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.

Ford admitting that they are too dumb to compete with nips is certainly not a good business decision

That is not the market they want
No money in compact sedans

 

[Frannie]

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.

Yea the FBI said that too...…………….Then disappeared tails between their legs

True story

Is that why you're a USMB Online Insane Asylum inmate?

Have you been a follower your entire life?

Yea you have

 

[Frannie]

Seems like it was a good business decision. Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well. If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.

Ford admitting that they are too dumb to compete with nips is certainly not a good business decision

That is not the market they want
No money in compact sedans

Toyota Honda and Nissan are making billions in compact sedans.

Ford needs to hire some Japs to run the company

So Ford made compact sedans because it was not the market they wanted.

OKEEDOKEE

Makes sense yupper

 

[Ringel05]

What a friggin' moron......

Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..

I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.

Yea the FBI said that too...…………….Then disappeared tails between their legs

True story

Is that why you're a USMB Online Insane Asylum inmate?

Have you been a follower your entire life?

Yea you have

Wow, like that response wasn't expected........ Or original........

 

[Ringel05]

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

There you go, you've done it now!!! You confused him with reality!!!

 

[Frannie]

Yup car and driver is that

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

The mustang comes stock with a racing muffler that will wake the entire neighborhood. Luckily ford includes a real muffler for another grand...………….

90 percent of people do not want a racing muffler which will wake the entire neighborhood.

This is why Ford is no longer making cars.

I am actually trying to help these morons

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

The mustang comes stock with a racing muffler that will wake the entire neighborhood. Luckily ford includes a real muffler for another grand...………….

90 percent of people do not want a racing muffler which will wake the entire neighborhood.

This is why Ford is no longer making cars.

I am actually trying to help these morons

You do know that auto manufacturers aren't allowed to put overly loud exhausts on their vehicles right?

 

[hjmick]

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

The mustang comes stock with a racing muffler that will wake the entire neighborhood. Luckily ford includes a real muffler for another grand...………….

90 percent of people do not want a racing muffler which will wake the entire neighborhood.

This is why Ford is no longer making cars.

I am actually trying to help these morons

You do know that auto manufacturers aren't allowed to put overly loud exhausts on their vehicles right?

Based on this thread, I'd say no, he is completely ignorant to that fact.

 

[Frannie]

Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao

Sooooo, it's a circle jerk....... Got it.

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias......... And then apply it to yourself.

Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs

I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.

The mustang comes stock with a racing muffler that will wake the entire neighborhood. Luckily ford includes a real muffler for another grand...………….

90 percent of people do not want a racing muffler which will wake the entire neighborhood.

This is why Ford is no longer making cars.

I am actually trying to help these morons

You do know that auto manufacturers aren't allowed to put overly loud exhausts on their vehicles right?

You do know that Ford puts the loudest muffler allowable on GT's and charges another thousand bucks for the real quiet one. I would not mind if this were reversed and the performance user opts for the performance muffler. This egregious error is why Ford is no longer making cars as you can only fu.ck the customer so much then they fu,ck you back