fascism, does it exist in 21st Century America?

[Mr.Fitnah]

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next."

I believe this Statement of Principles is a prima facia example of American fascism. Posted below are a list of those who signed this document. For further information google each and PNAC.

Holy crap crapperson! these people are monstrous!

 

[Wry Catcher]

riter Dina Cappiello, Associated Press Writer
Tue Oct 13, 10:00 pm ET

WASHINGTON – A controversial e-mail message buried by the Bush administration because of its conclusions on global warming surfaced Tuesday, nearly two years after it was first sent to the White House and never opened.

The e-mail and the 28-page document attached to it, released Tuesday by the Environmental Protection Agency, show that back in December of 2007 the agency concluded that six gases linked to global warming pose dangers to public welfare, and wanted to take steps to regulate their release from automobiles and the burning of gasoline.

The document specifically cites global warming's effects on air quality, agriculture, forestry, water resources and coastal areas as endangering public welfare.

That finding was rejected by the Bush White House, which strongly opposed using the Clean Air Act to address climate change and stalled on producing a so-called "endangerment finding" that had been ordered by the Supreme Court in 2007.

As a result, the Dec. 5 e-mail sent by the agency to Susan Dudley, who headed the regulatory division at the Office of Management and Budget was never opened, according to Jason Burnett, the former EPA official that wrote it.

The Bush administration, and then EPA administrator Stephen Johnson, also refused to release the document, which is labeled "deliberative, do not distribute" to Democratic lawmakers. The White House instead allowed three senators to review it in July 2008, when excerpts were released.

The Obama administration in April made a similar determination, but also concluded that greenhouse gases endanger public health. The EPA is currently drafting the first greenhouse gas standards for automobiles, and recently signaled it would attempt to reduce climate-altering pollution from refineries, factories and other large industrial sources.

In response, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Republican lawmakers have criticized the EPA's reasoning and called for a more thorough vetting of the science. An internal review by a dozen federal agencies released in May also raised questions about the EPA's conclusion, saying the agency could have been more balanced and raising questions about the difficulty in linking global warming to health effects.

The agency released the e-mail and documents after receiving requests under the Freedom of Information Act.

Adora Andy, a spokeswoman for EPA administrator Lisa Jackson, said Tuesday that the draft shows the science in 2007 was as clear as it is today.

"The conclusions reached then by the EPA scientists should have been made public and should have been considered," she said.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

We also have a tyranny of Junk science .

 

[Charles Stucker]

I will argue it does, and that fascism is the greatest threat to our republic in this, the first decade of the new century.
But first, before the debate begins, how do YOU define fascisim (small 'f')?

A Brief Discourse on Fascism in America by Charles Stucker

The term Fascism, due to long association with Hitler and his genocidal pogroms, is so value laden that great care must be taken in defining it to avoid false negative in use of the label. Reducing to the absurd, consider the definition “Fascism is a Government with no redeeming qualities.” We can then use the (presumably) indisputable postulate “Mars is uninhabited” to easily prove the Government of Mars is Fascist. Thusly; mars has no people hence Mars has no government, hence the Government of Mars has no qualities, hence it has no redeeming qualities, hence “The Government of Mars is Fascist.”

Let us define fascism more completely than just “centralized power and nationalism” as that is again a misleading for such a simple definition might make Tokugawa era Japan “fascist,” when it was truly a feudal hierarchy. First expand the term Centralized Power with the inclusion of extreme State control of economic transactions normally handled efficiently by the private sector, and a general loss of individual freedoms. Second expand “Nationalism” to include equating a single party with national identity and a restriction or elimination of parties with opposing philosophies. This then forms a reasonable basis for judging fascism in a nation.

When asking if the United States of America is fascist we can now gauge our response based on something more than a trivial observation of yes or no backed by a diatribe to support the position.

Does the USA have centralized power? Yes, and it is arguably far more powerful than envisioned by the framers of the Constitution. However, every time someone goes to the grocery, they engage in free market activity which if regulated (by the FDA) to assure health/quality is not under price controls set by the central government. Are individual freedoms curtailed? Obviously any law curtails the “freedom” to ignore it, but here I am speaking of rights to free speech, property ownership and justice, among others. While it is easy to see “justice” is more “just” for the rich and while uneven property taxes make ownership of a home more stressful than needed, there still exist enough rights that are observed in the USA (as opposed to those honored primarily by Breach rather than Observance) that loss of freedoms is not strong enough to compare with those of Nazi Germany or Mussolini’s Italy. The unconstitutional attempt to control guns by treaty rather than constitutional amendment is a step toward fascism, but it has yet to be enacted.

Does the USA have Nationalism? Certainly, I personally know an enormous number of people whose favorite quote seems to be “Our Government may not be Perfect, but it is the best ever, and nothing will ever be this good again.” However we have two major and numerous minor parties (including a Fascist Party) and even the most conservative Republican I know admits that there exists a huge difference between the Republican Party and the USA - he even admits that a person can be a patriot without necessarily being a conservative Republican.

In conclusion I find that the United Sates of America is not fascist when a reasonably complete definition of fascism is applied to the question.

Permission to reproduce this is granted to anyone who so wishes as long as nothing is changed (excerpts may be used only if accompanied by a note that it IS an incomplete excerpt) and my name, Charles Stucker, is retained as author

 

[Wry Catcher]

A thougtful response without the (unfortuante) emotional response loaded with logiical fallacies, and in particular an ad hominem attack. Thank you, Mr. Stucker, sir.

My question in the first post on this thread is: "fascism, does it exist in 21st Century America?". As noted Charles Stucker (CS) fascism is generally equated with Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy during the decade before the outbreak of WW II.
I suggest that fascism includes, generally, the fourteen characteristics as listed here:

"Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. "

If these 14 points accurately describe fascism, I'm convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt that the neoconservative movement in the US today is fascist, and answers the original question as I promised.
Furthermore, the 'conservative chic', those who parrot the talking points of the right wing media as if the words they post are their own, enable those who believe in thier dark hearts that the end justifies the means and that might makes right.
That fascism exists is no surprise, what is suprising is that so many on this message board, and others, the teabaggers, the birthers and those who pretend to be "independent" have no idea that IT can happen here, and some who hope it does.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Well, seems as if everyone agrees with me and that fascisim exists in America today as a fringe element of the Republican Party.
Now, what do we do about it?
In particular, what do traditional Republicans do to take back their party?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Well?

 

[Charles Stucker]

Well?

I have to disagree with your conclusion based on your fourteen points. I cannot accept that some resemblance, or even adherence in a portion of the points equates with true fascism.
Point 1 - Nationalism - I have not seen anything remotely approaching the degree of "Flag Display" which is pretty common in pictures and film from Nazi Germany. When I see a parade I tend to see shriners and floats with pretty girls, not ranks of soldiers with guns. The national Anthem is heard only at ball games. Do I need to go on?

Point 2 - I'll concede that the Bush administration had a pretty terrible record on this one

Point 3 - Despite a lot of finger pointing (which seems endemic anytime things go wrong) I've yet to notice a unifying patriotic frenzy

Point 4 - "People join the military because they can't get real jobs" - I hear this one a lot and it does not sound glamorous. Welfare, Social Security Reform, Education reform, National Health Care - all these domestic issues get a fair bit of attention.

Point 5 - Hillary Clinton. Sure some republicans are Homophobic, as I presume are some democrats, but the current administration seems pretty tolerant of it.

Point 6 - Concede
Point 7 - Certainly they attempt to use fear. FRD used reverse psychology fear to get re-elected a lot, but I'm not quite to the point of conceding this one.

Point 8 - No, just no.

Point 9 - Concede, but it also seems a common meme throughout history - wealthy business owners had extreme levels of influence in Classical Rome for example

Point 10 - No, the unions still seem very strong, and run by the Mob in a lot of cases.

Point 11 - When did they start arresting professors? Sure there exists a strong set of Know Nothings who believe ignorance is superior, but they've been around throughout history. see most Illiterate medieval Knights for an example.

Point 12 - Concede, even though I don't see it as from Patriotism as much as Apathy.

Point 13 - Partially concede; I don't see evidence of national treasures being looted. Again Cronyism is a recurring theme through history and hardly evidence of anything more sinister than human greed.

Point 14 - Were it not for the "Smear Campaign" aspect I would absolutely reject this, and once more smear campaigns exist throughout the history of democracy for the sole purpose of getting elected.

So I only see four of the fourteen points as clearly indicated. The worst is the abuses associated with Point 2, but all the other concede points apply equally well to the liberals as the conservatives. If we accept DR Britt who seems, by your posting to posit that Fascists have all the characteristics, then I can only conclude, from your own definitions and my personal experience, that America is not currently fascist. I cannot rule out the possibility that we could become so in the future, but some of the points cannot occur without radical reinterpretation of the constitution and that is a trait (reinterpretation) I find more often in liberals.

 

[Si modo]

Well, seems as if everyone agrees with me and that fascisim exists in America today as a fringe element of the Republican Party.
Now, what do we do about it?
In particular, what do traditional Republicans do to take back their party?

If you get no response your mind allows you to think that you must be right?

How bizarre that your mind works that way. The non sequitur gene is strong in you.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Again, a thoughtful reply. My take with examples:

1. Our national Anthem has been part of sporting events for many decades. Today games in the NFL begin with the NA and many times with our flag displayed by scores of service personnel, a flag stretching from side line to side line and covering 60% of the fields length; all this followed up by a fly over of fighter jets at low altitude. In baseball the seventh inning was once a time to stretch, now it's a time to hear "America the Beautiful"; a big controversy arose over the current president not wearing a flag pin or raising his had over his heart when "America the Beautiful" played.
Many times a fair assessment of American foreign policy deserves to be questioned and debated, but such discourse is stifled by the cry from the right wing that to do so is un-American.
Flag display in the background of most politicians making national addresses is common, but George W. Bush was the first POTUS to appear in a military uniform on the day he declared "Mission Accomplished".

2. Not only the Bush Administration. Consider the remarks by 'ordinary' Americans such as those who post on this message board.

3. "Freedom Fries", the right wing attack on the Dixie Chicks; use of the political term "liberal" as a pejorative, the entire body of 'work' of Rush Limbaugh; calling the president a Communist, a Socialist, even a Nazi; the use of made up terms "Islamo Nazi"; Bush&Co using hate and fear to stir support for the war in Iraq - sending Rice, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld out to the Sunday Morning talk shows to raise fear with the image of mushroom clouds.

4. According to my 2008 Almanac; we spend 3% of our GNP on the military, the world wide average is 3%. And, of course, our GNP is huge compared to most other nations.
People join the military for many reasons; I joined the Navy in 1967 for two reasons: I didn't want to be drafted and I wanted to see the world. Today everyone in our service branches is called a hero; in my time we were ordinary people, some good, some bad, some smart, some stupid. There were acts of extreme bravery, but heros were quite rare.


5. Anti-gay and lesbian rhetoric is common place, especially among the group of neoconservatives who post on anonymous message boards; the religious community benefits from tax exempt income but continues to collude with right wing politicians in suppressing the rights of some Americans. Consider the issue of Prop 8 in California and the ludicrous calls to defend marriage.

6. Fox News, The Washington Times, and other Murdoch holdings, Rush Limbaugh, et al, who profit by lies, half-truths, rumor and innuendo have become ubiquitous; and seem to be immune from libel and slander laws. Censorship exists, though not codified. One of the best examples occured this summer as hundreds of teabaggers shouted down anyone, elected official or otherwise. The constant banter that the media is biased and liberal is absurd, given that the most outspoken are themselves members of the media (Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck).

7. This is self evident. Hate and fear are the hallmarks of Bush&Co and the foundation upon which Wm. Kristol and others if his kind proselytize the neoconservative cause (for others of his 'kind' google PNAC and read the names signed to their principles).

8. Again, self-evident for those who follow current events. Consider the influence of Falwell and Robertson as well as those who graduated from the Liberty University and Regent University who entered into government service. Does the name Monica Goodling ring any bells?

9. One wrong, or dozens of others, doesn't make right what has gone so badly since 1981.

10. Unions are under attack, and have been under attack since 1981 with the ideological firing of the Air Traffic Controllers by RR. Consider the amount of non union illegal immigrants which flooded the US during the first decade of this century. Largely ignored by Bush&Co and the Republican Congress - remember, they were in total control of Congress from 1995 until 2007 and of the White House from 2001 to 2007 - little effort was made to stop this flood which held wages down for working Americans and benefited business and industry.

11. Professors do not need to be arrested, the constant talking points repeated ad naseau about liberal professors and liberal universities as somehow evil has an effect on how people behave.

12. Habeas Corpus completely ignored and an American citizen held in violation of all of our rights by the Justice Dept in reacton to 9/11.

13. Partially concede? Bush was the poster child for such cronyism.

14.. Obama has been the victim of a smear campaign since before the election of 2008; birthers, truthers, teabaggers, etc. all hope our president fails. Yea, fascisim does exist in our time, and it not only can, it has happened here. Pogo was right, we are the people are parents warned us about.

 

[Si modo]

I'm loving this thread.

Wry makes an OP without stating an opinion or even stating reasons for an opinion. He gets nabbed on that and FINALLY gives his opinon that fascism means what the GOP does.

Then he concludes that the GOP is fascist.

BGG knew the outcome of this thread from the start.

The lack of logic is amazing. Wry's fallacies abound - burden, non sequiturs, ad hominems, begging the question, etc.

I'll keep pointing those out until some logic actually gets into this thread.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I'm loving this thread.

Wry makes an OP without stating an opinion or even stating reasons for an opinion. He gets nabbed on that and FINALLY gives his opinon that fascism means what the GOP does.

Then he concludes that the GOP is fascist.

BGG knew the outcome of this thread from the start.

The lack of logic is amazing. Wry's fallacies abound - burden, non sequiturs, ad hominems, begging the question, etc.

I'll keep pointing those out until some logic actually gets into this thread.

Be my guest. An honest person would point out each logical fallacy. You play little games Si, but never say anything. You also lie. I did not, have not, and never will equate the Republican Party with fascism. My point, which you ignore solely for convenience, and in the hope some will believe you are well educated and smart (lol) was, is, and always has been that the far right fringe of the Republican Party, and many who today call themselves independents, are characteristic of those who are fascist, or hold fascist views.
Now, I admit the word fascist is used by me and many others as a pejorative. That is legit criticism, but given the bs written by right wing trolls, I feel entitled.

 

[Charles Stucker]

1. Our national Anthem has been part of sporting events for many decades. Today games in the NFL begin with the NA and many times with our flag displayed by scores of service personnel, a flag stretching from side line to side line and covering 60% of the fields length; all this followed up by a fly over of fighter jets at low altitude. In baseball the seventh inning was once a time to stretch, now it's a time to hear "America the Beautiful"; a big controversy arose over the current president not wearing a flag pin or raising his had over his heart when "America the Beautiful" played.
Many times a fair assessment of American foreign policy deserves to be questioned and debated, but such discourse is stifled by the cry from the right wing that to do so is un-American.
Flag display in the background of most politicians making national addresses is common, but George W. Bush was the first POTUS to appear in a military uniform on the day he declared "Mission Accomplished".

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that you are looking too hard for "similarities" and thus seeing what you concluded from the outset. You might be better served looking for differences and then running through the list and seeing what is left over.
I've chosen to only look at one point this time - the first point, though several others might serve as well for this example.
Baseball is arguably the most conservative sport in the USA; it is losing young audience to "Xtreme" sports and has an increasingly elderly demographic. Thus it is hardly surprising that they are using flag waving and other appeals to appeal to what has become their target demographic. I'm certain that if they believed they would get more money by having Paris Hilton (with apologies in advance to Ms. Hilton) mangle the national anthem while letting her dress slip and expose a nipple, or the slit in her skirt be high enough that a quick turn revealed she had chosen not to wear undergarments, then she might appear at every game.
A walk around my neighborhood shows ONE flag flying, I reached 200 houses before I stopped counting which did not have a flag, and I live in Texas a bastion of conservatism. I had a teacher once who had been a young girl in Nazi Germany; Hitler Youth was like the Scouts - every child belonged to it, every house flew a German flag, and everywhere you went there was something put up to glorify Hitler, exhort greater effort for the war, or remind readers to watch everyone for seditious behavior. Not a few signs here and there, but every single street corner.

Stifling opposition goes back to Hamilton in the US, and I recall a lot of discourse about the problems in the Bush administration. I sent a letter to the White house warning them they were making a strategic error in moving against Iraq (because it exhausted our last reserves of troops, everything was in the field at that point and any true emergency would have seen us stretched too thin for a timely response) - and if I got no return letter, I also did not get brown shirted goons showing up to arrest me for treason in suggesting the president made an error.
As for politicians wrapping themselves in the flag - that's as old as politicians and flags. Andrew Jackson capitalized on his military past, repeatedly bringing up the Battle of New Orleans, but that hardly makes him a fascist does it? JFK turned his status as (legitimate) war hero (ever hear of a book called PT 409?) into a political career.
Bush Junior had no legitimate military past, but wanted to avoid the doubts (of military people) which plagued the pot smoking draft dodging POTUS which had been Clinton.

Slightly OT - Bush Junior and Clinton were both travesties as presidents. Clinton's claim about the economy was absolute nonsense - the internet revolution buoyed the economy despite, not because of, the actions of the Clinton Administration. After 9/11 Bush Junior got caught up in his military role and allowed everything to fall apart. So far Obama seems just another smarmy politician pushing his "goals" with a primary eye for getting re-elected. He needs aother technological economic miracle to avoid having the situation decline further. I doubt one is forthcoming. All this is naturally my view of things.

 

[Wry Catcher]

1. Our national Anthem has been part of sporting events for many decades. Today games in the NFL begin with the NA and many times with our flag displayed by scores of service personnel, a flag stretching from side line to side line and covering 60% of the fields length; all this followed up by a fly over of fighter jets at low altitude. In baseball the seventh inning was once a time to stretch, now it's a time to hear "America the Beautiful"; a big controversy arose over the current president not wearing a flag pin or raising his had over his heart when "America the Beautiful" played.
Many times a fair assessment of American foreign policy deserves to be questioned and debated, but such discourse is stifled by the cry from the right wing that to do so is un-American.
Flag display in the background of most politicians making national addresses is common, but George W. Bush was the first POTUS to appear in a military uniform on the day he declared "Mission Accomplished".

I hate to say it, but it seems to me that you are looking too hard for "similarities" and thus seeing what you concluded from the outset. You might be better served looking for differences and then running through the list and seeing what is left over.
I've chosen to only look at one point this time - the first point, though several others might serve as well for this example.
Baseball is arguably the most conservative sport in the USA; it is losing young audience to "Xtreme" sports and has an increasingly elderly demographic. Thus it is hardly surprising that they are using flag waving and other appeals to appeal to what has become their target demographic. I'm certain that if they believed they would get more money by having Paris Hilton (with apologies in advance to Ms. Hilton) mangle the national anthem while letting her dress slip and expose a nipple, or the slit in her skirt be high enough that a quick turn revealed she had chosen not to wear undergarments, then she might appear at every game.
A walk around my neighborhood shows ONE flag flying, I reached 200 houses before I stopped counting which did not have a flag, and I live in Texas a bastion of conservatism. I had a teacher once who had been a young girl in Nazi Germany; Hitler Youth was like the Scouts - every child belonged to it, every house flew a German flag, and everywhere you went there was something put up to glorify Hitler, exhort greater effort for the war, or remind readers to watch everyone for seditious behavior. Not a few signs here and there, but every single street corner.

Stifling opposition goes back to Hamilton in the US, and I recall a lot of discourse about the problems in the Bush administration. I sent a letter to the White house warning them they were making a strategic error in moving against Iraq (because it exhausted our last reserves of troops, everything was in the field at that point and any true emergency would have seen us stretched too thin for a timely response) - and if I got no return letter, I also did not get brown shirted goons showing up to arrest me for treason in suggesting the president made an error.
As for politicians wrapping themselves in the flag - that's as old as politicians and flags. Andrew Jackson capitalized on his military past, repeatedly bringing up the Battle of New Orleans, but that hardly makes him a fascist does it? JFK turned his status as (legitimate) war hero (ever hear of a book called PT 409?) into a political career.
Bush Junior had no legitimate military past, but wanted to avoid the doubts (of military people) which plagued the pot smoking draft dodging POTUS which had been Clinton.

Slightly OT - Bush Junior and Clinton were both travesties as presidents. Clinton's claim about the economy was absolute nonsense - the internet revolution buoyed the economy despite, not because of, the actions of the Clinton Administration. After 9/11 Bush Junior got caught up in his military role and allowed everything to fall apart. So far Obama seems just another smarmy politician pushing his "goals" with a primary eye for getting re-elected. He needs aother technological economic miracle to avoid having the situation decline further. I doubt one is forthcoming. All this is naturally my view of things.

As is mine regarding the threat the right represents to our Constitution.
Clinton may have smoked pot, back in the day, as did the boomers you suggest are the demographic for baseball today. On that point, maybe geography plays a role, but as a long time volunteer coach here in the Bay Area I can assure you my sons (31 & 26) are both avid fans as are their friends. But, as for being a draft dodger, I find that at best disingenuous; Cheney took deferments and Libby, Krystol, Wolfowitz and other neocons did too. Bush, Jr. failed in his committment to the National Guard (though I understand, when my oldest considered joining up I encouraged him not too, my own experience -1967 - 1969 - was a lesson learned. Maybe daddy Bush gave the same insight to his sons I gave mine).
We can agree to disagree, and I respect your opinion and the manner in which you expresss it. My simple hope is, that it doesn't happen here.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Gleeeeenn Beck

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Or is the tip of the spear.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

obsession with indoctrination no interest in education history is replaced by social studies science with environmentalism

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVf8b0JSGsE]YouTube - Obamas Civil Defense Program Resembles Domestic Draft[/ame]

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Obama Taps More Big Donors for Ambassadorships - ABC News

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. "

Just picked some of the low hanging fruit.

 

[Charles Stucker]

As is mine regarding the threat the right represents to our Constitution.
Clinton may have smoked pot, back in the day,

Both sides threaten the constitution. Hillary Clinton's move to outlaw guns using a treaty (which I understand may happen) is blatantly unconstitutional as it directly contradicts our bill of rights. To take away private gun ownership constitutionally would necessitate an amendment, and circumventing this with a treaty opens the door to any right being remover in that fashion.
I had referred to Clinton as a Pot Smoking Draft Dodger because the Military did just that. The only reason they didn't also append the label Womanizer is that such is oft seen in military circles as a positive trait. You are also quite correct - Bush Jr was not a true military man, that was his father. Notice which one actually kept his war short, even if doing so lost him an election.