Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
Taxes are variable production costs? Farmer's profit is a variable production cost? Outbuildings are a variable production cost? Not likely. BUT IN ANY CASE, the labor in the field is a negligible portion of the price the consumer pays in the store. You, NPR, and that farmer, each for his own reasons, feels the need misinform the American people apparently.It is unbelievable that that is put out by the USDA. This quote alone:
The most recent data from ERS indicate that labor accounted for 42 percent of the variable production expenses for U.S. fruit and vegetable farms, although labor’s share varied significantly depending on the characteristics of the commodity and whether the harvest was mechanized.In the first place, labor doesn't account for 42 percent of the retail consumer cost, it's 42 percent of the "variable production expenses". So that probably doesn't include cost of machinery, cost of storage, cost of transportation, taxes, the farmer's profit, etc. It is likely only the labor, seed, irrigation, fertilizer, and, possibly, tillage, so, yeah, it could be 42 percent, that STILL is a negligible part of what you pay in the store for a box of strawberries.
Actually, machinery, cost of storage, cost of transportation, taxes and more are counted as production expenses. There is a survey of farmers done every year called the Agricultural Resource Management Survey (ARMS) that ask all those and more. This is on top of monthly Ag Labor reports which tracks just the labor.
You really should learn what you are talking about prior to coming on such a forum as this.
42 percent of the variable production expenses for U.S. fruit and vegetable farms
Yes, "variable" as in always changing, not set. Transportation cost change with the cost of fuel, off farm storage cost change based on the demand for the storage and so forth.
Government isn't the problem, some of us are.Don't get your hopes up, republicans aren't really known for cleaning up spending problems.We live in a representative democracy. Of course there was a very long national dialogue surrounding trade liberalization that dates all the way back to GATT. It didn't just begin with NAFTA.I'm not sure who you mean by "rubes", but the free trade true believers are found along K St and in a sprinkling of libertarians around the country. Free trade has never been a "one-issue-voter's kind of issue". In other words, it isn't so much that the "rubes" swallowed anything, but, rather, they weren't asked.Yes, of course I'm talking about NAFTA. NAFTA devastated Mexico's agrarian communities.The biggest economic hit on rural Mexico was NAFTA, and the biggest cultural hit has been mass illegal immigration to the US. The villain is globalism, nationalism is the cure.
And yes I know Clinton signed it into law. But it was years in the making and the outcome was telegraphed from the outset, Reagan laid out the vision and the rubes swallowed his shit and begged for more. Reagan and Bush Sr. did the heavy lifting, Clinton was there in time to get the accolades.
Globalism was sold to the rubes as free market capitalism. Government is the problem they said. We have to allow our corporations to compete globally they said. And the rubes begged for it. Now they wallow in their own stupidity and look for a savior to reverse course. Only their ignorance has led them to the greatest con man we have seen thus far. Trump is not a nationalist, he is an opportunist and a megalomaniac.
Of course Reagan kicked it into high gear. He sold the people on the idea that the government was the problem and business needed to be free from its persuasion. Freeing capital to seek out the cheapest labor, totally ignoring the costs to our society here at home. Yet the idiots that hung on his every word, and do to this day, ignore the fact that in the US we have a people's government. Government isn't the problem, the problem is that globalists are in control of it. Just as they were in control of Reagan. Reagan sold their message and the rubes still hold him up reverentially, seemingly unaware of how they have been played.
GOVT conficates 20% of GDP and spends it poorly (private jets, 6-figure pensions at early age....etc.). GOVT is a problem. Trump elected to attempt a cleanup. We can spend OUR $$$ better than they do. We also can't go into catastrophic debt, not most of us.
Federal Spending Grew More Under Bush and Reagan than Under Obama
We were given about as good a system of government as we could hope for. It is our duty to maintain it. Government isn't the problem, we are.
So it's even less than a nickel? Wow, if it went up to a nickel, that would be the end of salads in America.For lettuce, the field labor represents about a nickel per head. We could pay field hands $40 per hour and the price would rise on a head in the store by 20 cents. I've never calculated strawberries, but there is no reason to believe it would be any different, and if it were, then we would do like Japan does. Build machines to pick strawberries. Do you think it is impossible to get a strawberry in Japan?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
I have a link to what lettuce pickers get paid, and it isn't anywhere near 5 cents a head. I'll try and find it. Their quotas are anywhere from 1 to 2 tons per hour, somewhere in that range, and they slow down a lot as the day goes on.
/----/ Oh for crying out loud Spending went up under Reagan and Bush because they had to rebuild the military after Carter and Clintoon destroyed it. And I bet you already knew thatDon't get your hopes up, republicans aren't really known for cleaning up spending problems.We live in a representative democracy. Of course there was a very long national dialogue surrounding trade liberalization that dates all the way back to GATT. It didn't just begin with NAFTA.I'm not sure who you mean by "rubes", but the free trade true believers are found along K St and in a sprinkling of libertarians around the country. Free trade has never been a "one-issue-voter's kind of issue". In other words, it isn't so much that the "rubes" swallowed anything, but, rather, they weren't asked.Yes, of course I'm talking about NAFTA. NAFTA devastated Mexico's agrarian communities.
And yes I know Clinton signed it into law. But it was years in the making and the outcome was telegraphed from the outset, Reagan laid out the vision and the rubes swallowed his shit and begged for more. Reagan and Bush Sr. did the heavy lifting, Clinton was there in time to get the accolades.
Globalism was sold to the rubes as free market capitalism. Government is the problem they said. We have to allow our corporations to compete globally they said. And the rubes begged for it. Now they wallow in their own stupidity and look for a savior to reverse course. Only their ignorance has led them to the greatest con man we have seen thus far. Trump is not a nationalist, he is an opportunist and a megalomaniac.
Of course Reagan kicked it into high gear. He sold the people on the idea that the government was the problem and business needed to be free from its persuasion. Freeing capital to seek out the cheapest labor, totally ignoring the costs to our society here at home. Yet the idiots that hung on his every word, and do to this day, ignore the fact that in the US we have a people's government. Government isn't the problem, the problem is that globalists are in control of it. Just as they were in control of Reagan. Reagan sold their message and the rubes still hold him up reverentially, seemingly unaware of how they have been played.
GOVT conficates 20% of GDP and spends it poorly (private jets, 6-figure pensions at early age....etc.). GOVT is a problem. Trump elected to attempt a cleanup. We can spend OUR $$$ better than they do. We also can't go into catastrophic debt, not most of us.
Federal Spending Grew More Under Bush and Reagan than Under Obama
We were given about as good a system of government as we could hope for. It is our duty to maintain it. Government isn't the problem, we are.
I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
If illegals are gone and no Americans apply.....then farmers will have to pay more that's all......or the jobs are left unfilled and that's OK is it not?
More recent MJ article.
Trump’s Plan to Make America Great Again Using Cheap Foreign Labor – Mother Jones
Some labor advocates say the shortages are a product of inferior wages. They point to Christopher Ranch, a 4,000-acre farm in Gilroy, California, which at the end of last year was short 50 workers it needed to peel and package garlic. In January, the company announced that it would raise its farmhand wage from $11 to $13 an hour—an 18 percent increase—and boost it to $15 in 2018. Soon it had a waitlist of 150 people. “I knew [the pay raise] would help,” ranch VP Ken Christopher told the Los Angeles Times, “but I had no idea it would solve our labor problem.”
...
But the imbalance of power can also enable horrific abuses. A 2015 investigation by BuzzFeed found that thousands of H-2 visa holders had been badly exploited: deprived of fair pay, imprisoned, starved, beaten, raped, and threatened with deportation if they complained. And guestworkers seldom report labor abuses. When they do, advocates say, they lack the resources to fight for restitution. Former Rep. Charles Rangel once attacked the H-2 program as “the closest thing I’ve ever seen to slavery.”
Of course Democrats like Syriously are just fine with modern slavery, as long as there is a chance they can bleat 'rayciss' 20 times a thread.
These 'labor shortage' claims and visa programs are just scams, period.
With fresh water shortages being claimed all across the country why is anybody wasting water on worthless crap food like iceberg lettuce in the first place??? It has almost no nutritional value and sucks up massive amounts of water.
Haven't looked for the data on how many bail out of the buses overstay their visas and camp out in the barrios on food stamps and public housing there in Cali and 'sanctuary cities' yet.
To be clear, in my scenario, they collectively make $38,400 tax free, for about a $160-$200 investment, if they ONLY go to Oregon! That is equal to a US Citizen making FIFTY thousand.
So it's even less than a nickel? Wow, if it went up to a nickel, that would be the end of salads in America.For lettuce, the field labor represents about a nickel per head. We could pay field hands $40 per hour and the price would rise on a head in the store by 20 cents. I've never calculated strawberries, but there is no reason to believe it would be any different, and if it were, then we would do like Japan does. Build machines to pick strawberries. Do you think it is impossible to get a strawberry in Japan?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
I have a link to what lettuce pickers get paid, and it isn't anywhere near 5 cents a head. I'll try and find it. Their quotas are anywhere from 1 to 2 tons per hour, somewhere in that range, and they slow down a lot as the day goes on.
Gilroy is a Silicon Valley bedroom community (35 miles south of SJ) where median house cost is close to $650K. Rent is close to $2000/mo for almost anything.
Why is it Tax free income? I keep hearing these "workers" pay taxes. They did pay ~$0.50/Gallon when they drove through "uninsured". Does the old Pontiac need tires and brakes? probably. another $1000. The apples are gone in time? Or do they ripen all year long? What do they do? Live in the car? They pull up a Trailer?
I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Make labor expensive enough and it'll be more economical to ship broken robots back to India for repair. So there go the 5,000 jobs that went to some of the 500,000 automation-displaced when those lucky 5,000 retrained to fix robots.
I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Indeed; same for Singapore. As I said earlier, automation goes on regardless of wage levels, and that included fast food chains. Labor costs are a small percentage of costs. Employers would whine and cry over paying 2 cents an hour.
I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Indeed; same for Singapore. As I said earlier, automation goes on regardless of wage levels, and that included fast food chains. Labor costs are a small percentage of costs. Employers would whine and cry over paying 2 cents an hour.
That would depend on the industry. It's the same debate that goes on with minimum wage increases.
If we increased the federal minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, it wouldn't have much effect on fast food chains like McDonald's. That's because they sell thousands of burgers and drinks every day, plus the hundreds of french fries and deserts. So absorbing that increased wage is divided by the thousands and nobody would know the difference.
Not the same for Tom's hardware store. Tom doesn't sell a thousand hammers a day or hundreds of screw drivers. He has to increase the cost of his products much more than Wendy's.
So when we talk about agriculture and increased wages for Americans, I don't think it would be that noticeable because of the amount of crops they pick, sort or package.
Raising the minimum wage may not be necessary if we get rid of all the employed illegal aliens wages will raise out of necessity.I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Indeed; same for Singapore. As I said earlier, automation goes on regardless of wage levels, and that included fast food chains. Labor costs are a small percentage of costs. Employers would whine and cry over paying 2 cents an hour.
That would depend on the industry. It's the same debate that goes on with minimum wage increases.
If we increased the federal minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, it wouldn't have much effect on fast food chains like McDonald's. That's because they sell thousands of burgers and drinks every day, plus the hundreds of french fries and deserts. So absorbing that increased wage is divided by the thousands and nobody would know the difference.
Not the same for Tom's hardware store. Tom doesn't sell a thousand hammers a day or hundreds of screw drivers. He has to increase the cost of his products much more than Wendy's.
So when we talk about agriculture and increased wages for Americans, I don't think it would be that noticeable because of the amount of crops they pick, sort or package.
I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Indeed; same for Singapore. As I said earlier, automation goes on regardless of wage levels, and that included fast food chains. Labor costs are a small percentage of costs. Employers would whine and cry over paying 2 cents an hour.
That would depend on the industry. It's the same debate that goes on with minimum wage increases.
If we increased the federal minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, it wouldn't have much effect on fast food chains like McDonald's. That's because they sell thousands of burgers and drinks every day, plus the hundreds of french fries and deserts. So absorbing that increased wage is divided by the thousands and nobody would know the difference.
Not the same for Tom's hardware store. Tom doesn't sell a thousand hammers a day or hundreds of screw drivers. He has to increase the cost of his products much more than Wendy's.
So when we talk about agriculture and increased wages for Americans, I don't think it would be that noticeable because of the amount of crops they pick, sort or package.
Pretty much. Not much room for small businesses these days, as the big box stores and internet run them out quick. People need to just accept monopolies and duopolies and trusts are the natural end result of competition and learn some way to regulate them, as they're inevitable.
Why is it Tax free income?
But all claim the EIC, apparently.Gilroy is a Silicon Valley bedroom community (35 miles south of SJ) where median house cost is close to $650K. Rent is close to $2000/mo for almost anything.
Yes. I used to live in Sunnyvale doing contract work at a couple of companies near that 'America' something or other amusement park, and from there to Berkeley and Lawrence Livermore for a couple of years, then from there to Portland, Or. for 8 months or so.
Why is it Tax free income? I keep hearing these "workers" pay taxes. They did pay ~$0.50/Gallon when they drove through "uninsured". Does the old Pontiac need tires and brakes? probably. another $1000. The apples are gone in time? Or do they ripen all year long? What do they do? Live in the car? They pull up a Trailer?
The majority are hired by 'labor contractors', not directly by the farmers; these 'contractors' allegedly withhold the payroll taxes and stuff, but it's highly unlikely they ever actually pay a dime to the govt.
They get a fake S.S. number to present to their employer or an ITIN if independent. Fake ID cards, fake birth certificates......Supplying these things is a profitable business. As is moving illegals across the border. Not worth the effort to do regularly if you are here illegally. It's expensive and risky. Even if you are a "tough Mexican". LolHow are you going to pay tax to Uncle Sam unless you have a Social Security number?
Each state has their own AG wage requirements, much like how waiters/waitresses have a lower minimum wage then normal. A state can raise AG minimum wage and have no effect on any other industry. Farmers also have the H2A visa with no annual cap, so they could bring in all the workers they need, but there are requirements for it.I wonder how the Japanese manage to feed themselves at all. High wage country. No immigrants. It must be impossible to get a fruit or vegetable in Japan, huh, strawman?There is no subject on which more people are stupider than on economics.
This farmer cannot find Americans to work for a price he can afford to pay and stay in business.
So if farmers had to hire Americans and the price of milk went from $3.40 to $3.89 per gallon to cover the increase in wages, the farmers would go out of business? All the dairies would shut down and America would be a country without milk for our cereal? Is that what you think?
You keep harping on milk, one of the least labor intensive agricultural products. Why not make this same calculations for lettuce or strawberries or grapes.
Because the argument is a strawman.
This OP is based on a lie about a NPR article about the difficulty finding labor to pick apples. Of course cnelsen would prefer to address his own strawman rather than the topic.
Where agriculture can mechanize and automate- it is doing so as rapidly as it can. Dairy has been mechanized for decades, as has grain and much of livestock production.
It is produce- fruits and vegetables- that are hard to mechanize or automate- and those are the commodities that have the highest labor costs.
Easy enough to see how that affects American produce- compare the price of Chinese garlic to American garlic- almost twice as expensive- almost all due to labor costs- even with the cost of transporting the garlic from China.
Indeed; same for Singapore. As I said earlier, automation goes on regardless of wage levels, and that included fast food chains. Labor costs are a small percentage of costs. Employers would whine and cry over paying 2 cents an hour.
That would depend on the industry. It's the same debate that goes on with minimum wage increases.
If we increased the federal minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, it wouldn't have much effect on fast food chains like McDonald's. That's because they sell thousands of burgers and drinks every day, plus the hundreds of french fries and deserts. So absorbing that increased wage is divided by the thousands and nobody would know the difference.
Not the same for Tom's hardware store. Tom doesn't sell a thousand hammers a day or hundreds of screw drivers. He has to increase the cost of his products much more than Wendy's.
So when we talk about agriculture and increased wages for Americans, I don't think it would be that noticeable because of the amount of crops they pick, sort or package.
