CDZ Facts, Fake Facts and Alt-Facts

[JimBowie1958]

There has been some discussion of Alt-Facts lately and of course the media dismisses the whole notion of alt-facts because that is in their interest. And here is why.

'Facts' are things used to form a narrative, strung together by some connecting set of arguments or logic. For example, one can assert that "the best NFL quarterback on record was Peyton Manning because he has the most career passing yardage at 71,940 yards."

A fake fact would be to assert that Dan Marino had the most passing yards at 61,000, and that would be a fake fact simply because it is inaccurate.

An alternative Fact or Alt-Fact would be a fact that is used to build an alternative narrative with different facts and arguments, such as "Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback of all time because he has the best career QBR of 104.1." Still another narrative could be made that "Tom Brady is the best career QB because he has four and soon to be five Super Bowl rings." These are not falsehoods, but simply different facts used in a different narrative than the one used by the people who tend to form a consensus or the predominate opinion.

The major media of the five major news networks and a few newspapers have long held the advantage of being able to set the predominate narrative on events for decades now, nearly a century. And I think it is accurate to say that ever since Edward Bernays influence in the US media, the main goal of the US Oligarchs and their owned press has been to head off populism in just about all its forms and to make the more educated public feel that populism was to be equated with the evil of fascism and the Death Camps.

But we have new voices finally in this country that does not share this fear of the popular will and they unashamedly advocate the Will of the People, unfettered by the blinders of the media or the harness of the Oligarchs. They will now run the government of the USA for the benefit of the people of the USA and none other. This has sent the Oligarchs and their bought and paid for media into deliriums of phantasms of fascism and doom, but so be it. As long as their is no attempt to form a coup that is quite fine, duke it out in the political arena as a democratic process is meant to be done.

When the media crow about Trump having the smallest turnout in his inaugural address in decades, far smaller than Obamas, and show pictures taken nearly an hour before the oath of office was taken by Trump, they are using facts, how ever irrelevant they maybe, to form that narrative that Trump is unpopular.

But when Trumps team comes back with alternative facts, such as his total audience from all forms of media is a record setting audience for his inauguration, it is not a falsehood, it is simply an alternative narrative with its own set of facts, an alternative set of facts to the set of facts the major media want to use to spin their narrative instead of Trumps.

Thus we have Alt-Facts that are not false facts.

 

[Silent Warrior]

Facts can become fake facts while still being true due to intended interpretation.

Example: In a two car race Car A wins and Car B Loses.

Fact: Car A won race and Car B placed second.
Fake fact: Car B placed second while Car A came in next to last.

 

[jwoodie]

Trump is playing the press like a fiddle, goading them into sputtering about trivialities while he implements major policy initiatives. Good for him!

 

[Dragonlady]

Facts can become fake facts while still being true due to intended interpretation.

Example: In a two car race Car A wins and Car B Loses.

Fact: Car A won race and Car B placed second.
Fake fact: Car B placed second while Car A came in next to last.

Wrong:

Fact: Car A won, Car B came second. It can also be said that Car B came second and Car A came second last, which while technically true, is misleading. But it is not a "fake fact".

Fact Fact: Car B won, Car A came last.

A "fake fact" isn't an alternate way of saying something that is true, a fake fact is "FICTION", a LIE, NOT TRUE.

 

[Dragonlady]

Trump is playing the press like a fiddle, goading them into sputtering about trivialities while he implements major policy initiatives. Good for him!

Wrong. He's not initiating anything because he has no staff, in any of the Departments. Without staff, there is no one to implement anything. God help the US if there is a major attack or disaster right now, because Donnie doesn't have a clue what to do.

He's signing Executive Orders like a mad fiend without bothering to find out if they're enforceable. He doesn't even know if he can build a wall (he can't, without asking Congress for an appropriation), so his EO is useless.

He can't slap a tariff on foreign imports either. The President has no power to levy taxes. He should read the Constitution and he'd know that.

He can't repeal Obamacare by EO either. That has to come from Congress and the Senate.

So half the things he said he did, he didn't actually do.

As for the press, his every move is being scrutinized. His every lie is being debunked, and his gross incompetence becomes clearer by the day. The press is on to his deflections, and his lies. He won't be able to get away with lying, or trying to pawn off "alternate facts" because the press is now calling him on all of them.

 

[theHawk]

Trump is playing the press like a fiddle, goading them into sputtering about trivialities while he implements major policy initiatives. Good for him!

Wrong. He's not initiating anything because he has no staff, in any of the Departments. Without staff, there is no one to implement anything. God help the US if there is a major attack or disaster right now, because Donnie doesn't have a clue what to do.

He's signing Executive Orders like a mad fiend without bothering to find out if they're enforceable. He doesn't even know if he can build a wall (he can't, without asking Congress for an appropriation), so his EO is useless.

He can't slap a tariff on foreign imports either. The President has no power to levy taxes. He should read the Constitution and he'd know that.

He can't repeal Obamacare by EO either. That has to come from Congress and the Senate.

So half the things he said he did, he didn't actually do.

As for the press, his every move is being scrutinized. His every lie is being debunked, and his gross incompetence becomes clearer by the day. The press is on to his deflections, and his lies. He won't be able to get away with lying, or trying to pawn off "alternate facts" because the press is now calling him on all of them.

He didn't slap a tariff on imports. He merely said it is one way of doing it. He never implied it would not go through Congress. You loons just jumped to conclusions, as usual.

 

[usmbguest5318]

There has been some discussion of Alt-Facts

One needs to be very imaginative to accept the notion of alternative facts' existentiality. "Facts," in the context meant when we say that one has considered the facts, doesn't even have a antonym. The closest one gets to there even being one is in the sense of a singular piece of information, which either is true or false. If the information is false, one may call it a myth, among other things.

By my observation and in our time, Trump is perhaps the most adept of fabulists. The man surely rivals Aesop. The difference, of course, between Trump and Aesop, is that Aesop knew his tall tales were exactly that, whereas Trump actually believes his are true.

 

[JimBowie1958]

One needs to be very imaginative to accept the notion of alternative facts' existentiality. "Facts," in the context meant when we say that one has considered the facts, doesn't even have a antonym. The closest one gets to there even being one is in the sense of a singular piece of information, which either is true or false. If the information is false, one may call it a myth, among other things.

The use of the phrase "alt-facts" is a reference to facts used in an alternate narrative form the predominant narrative.

The key question is not if the fact is true or not, of course it is or it would not be labeled a 'fact'.

The only real question is if the alternative narrative is legit or not.

If for example measuring the Greatest NFL Quarterback is done by passing yardage, the most commonly used measure, then one quarterback is the decided leader, Peyton Manning. But if it is by Quarterback rating, it is Aaron Rodgers, or if by Super Bowls won, then it is Tom Brady.

But each fact given as support for an alternative narrative for who is the greatest quarterback is an 'Alt-Fact' that shoots down the predominant narrative on the topic.

Same goes with the "Trump is the most unpopular President in history" narrative. The size of the crowd at his inaugural is given as proof of that narrative. That "Trump is less popular than Obama" and support for that narrative is given in the form of comparative crown sizes and TV audience. Those are facts of the predominate media narrative.

An alternative narrative is that Trump is still very popular and supported by the fact that his total audience including online streaming and Twitter is far larger than any other audience for a Presidents inaugural in history. That is an alt-fact.

And these alt-facts are part of the reason that the Establishment media is not in control of the narratives any more, dude.

 

[usmbguest5318]

One needs to be very imaginative to accept the notion of alternative facts' existentiality. "Facts," in the context meant when we say that one has considered the facts, doesn't even have a antonym. The closest one gets to there even being one is in the sense of a singular piece of information, which either is true or false. If the information is false, one may call it a myth, among other things.

The use of the phrase "alt-facts" is a reference to facts used in an alternate narrative form the predominant narrative.

The key question is not if the fact is true or not, of course it is or it would not be labeled a 'fact'.

The only real question is if the alternative narrative is legit or not.

If for example measuring the Greatest NFL Quarterback is done by passing yardage, the most commonly used measure, then one quarterback is the decided leader, Peyton Manning. But if it is by Quarterback rating, it is Aaron Rodgers, or if by Super Bowls won, then it is Tom Brady.

But each fact given as support for an alternative narrative for who is the greatest quarterback is an 'Alt-Fact' that shoots down the predominant narrative on the topic.

Same goes with the "Trump is the most unpopular President in history" narrative. The size of the crowd at his inaugural is given as proof of that narrative. That "Trump is less popular than Obama" and support for that narrative is given in the form of comparative crown sizes and TV audience. Those are facts of the predominate media narrative.

An alternative narrative is that Trump is still very popular and supported by the fact that his total audience including online streaming and Twitter is far larger than any other audience for a Presidents inaugural in history. That is an alt-fact.

And these alt-facts are part of the reason that the Establishment media is not in control of the narratives any more, dude.

Okay. I'm fine with the notion of there being varying metrics by which one can consider a situation. That's never not been so. What matters is the analytical sagacity one exercises when assigning weights to the various factors, facts, that exist. Merely blurting out a fact and asserting that it should be the controlling or predominantly influencing factor is cognitively irresponsible. Individuals doing that and no more do not deserve to be taken seriously because they make no case for the sufficiency of their claim.

The fact(s) itself is plain to see, but its impact must be proven in order to arrive at the offered conclusions, such as "Trump is popular" or "Manning is the greatest quarterback." Absent or unwilling to present the case, one must at least specify the specific fact(s) lead to the conclusion one states in connection with them. Doing that won't make one's case, but it will provide the context others need in order to know one isn't just pulling the conclusion out of thin air. It gives one at least small measure of credibility, integrity and authenticity.

 

[Dragonlady]

Trump is playing the press like a fiddle, goading them into sputtering about trivialities while he implements major policy initiatives. Good for him!

Wrong. He's not initiating anything because he has no staff, in any of the Departments. Without staff, there is no one to implement anything. God help the US if there is a major attack or disaster right now, because Donnie doesn't have a clue what to do.

He's signing Executive Orders like a mad fiend without bothering to find out if they're enforceable. He doesn't even know if he can build a wall (he can't, without asking Congress for an appropriation), so his EO is useless.

He can't slap a tariff on foreign imports either. The President has no power to levy taxes. He should read the Constitution and he'd know that.

He can't repeal Obamacare by EO either. That has to come from Congress and the Senate.

So half the things he said he did, he didn't actually do.

As for the press, his every move is being scrutinized. His every lie is being debunked, and his gross incompetence becomes clearer by the day. The press is on to his deflections, and his lies. He won't be able to get away with lying, or trying to pawn off "alternate facts" because the press is now calling him on all of them.

He didn't slap a tariff on imports. He merely said it is one way of doing it. He never implied it would not go through Congress. You loons just jumped to conclusions, as usual.

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

 

[Dr Grump]

Trump is playing the press like a fiddle, goading them into sputtering about trivialities while he implements major policy initiatives. Good for him!

Wrong. He's not initiating anything because he has no staff, in any of the Departments. Without staff, there is no one to implement anything. God help the US if there is a major attack or disaster right now, because Donnie doesn't have a clue what to do.

He's signing Executive Orders like a mad fiend without bothering to find out if they're enforceable. He doesn't even know if he can build a wall (he can't, without asking Congress for an appropriation), so his EO is useless.

He can't slap a tariff on foreign imports either. The President has no power to levy taxes. He should read the Constitution and he'd know that.

He can't repeal Obamacare by EO either. That has to come from Congress and the Senate.

So half the things he said he did, he didn't actually do.

As for the press, his every move is being scrutinized. His every lie is being debunked, and his gross incompetence becomes clearer by the day. The press is on to his deflections, and his lies. He won't be able to get away with lying, or trying to pawn off "alternate facts" because the press is now calling him on all of them.

He didn't slap a tariff on imports. He merely said it is one way of doing it. He never implied it would not go through Congress. You loons just jumped to conclusions, as usual.

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

This kinda backs up your post...Leaks out of White House cast Donald Trump as a clueless child - World - NZ Herald News

 

[JimBowie1958]

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

You are hilarious.

McConnell and Ryan are having wet dreams now that they finally have a GOP President. The last thing they want is to see Trump leaving office.

ROFLMAO, where do you people get this crazy crap?

 

[theHawk]

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

You are hilarious.

McConnell and Ryan are having wet dreams now that they finally have a GOP President. The last thing they want is to see Trump leaving office.

ROFLMAO, where do you people get this crazy crap?

They're loons. All they can do at this point is fantasize that the GOP is going to destroy itself, since Dems were run out of town.

 

[Dragonlady]

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

You are hilarious.

McConnell and Ryan are having wet dreams now that they finally have a GOP President. The last thing they want is to see Trump leaving office.

ROFLMAO, where do you people get this crazy crap?

You're the fool here.

If they impeach Trump, they still have a Republican President, Mike Pence. The difference being that Pence is a tame Republican that they can manage, and who knows the system.

Admittedly his threat of war against China was a real "Holy shit, did he just SAY that" moment, and then I muttered about him being ever dumber than his boss when it comes to foreign relations. Something I didn't think was remotely possible.

 

[Dragonlady]

The use of the phrase "alt-facts" is a reference to facts used in an alternate narrative form the predominant narrative.

Wrong. Facts are not part of a "narrative". Facts are or they are not.

Opinions form part of a alternative narrative. Facts are not subject to opinion. Opinions are not facts, regardless of how strongly you "feel" that they are.

For example: A crowd estimated at 1.8 million make Obama's the best attended Inauguration in history.

Crowd estimates, supported by photographic evidence indicate that the only Presidential Inauguration with a lower live attendance than Trump's was George H. W. Bush, in 1999.

Trump lost the popular vote by three million. There is no evidence whatsoever that massive voter fraud involving illegal immigrants, or anyone else for that matter, on the scale the President has suggested, is even possible. Every previous investigation of voter fraud involving illegals or people voting twice, comes up empty. There have been fewer than a dozen prosecutions for such attempts over the years.

There is strong evidence of voter suppression though, by agents of the Republican Party. Mass purgings of voter rolls have left many voters frustrated at the polls. These purgings took place, not based on census data, or tax rolls, but rather based on the number of people living in one residence. If there were several of a different last name, it was assumed that not all of these people lived there, and most of the names were purged.

Yes the dead used to vote in Chicago back when Daley was mayor and nobody had to present ID to vote, but that was 50 years ago, when the voting lists were maintained and checked manually.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The use of the phrase "alt-facts" is a reference to facts used in an alternate narrative form the predominant narrative.

Wrong. Facts are not part of a "narrative". Facts are or they are not.

Lol, that is simply laughably wrong.

Facts are used to construct the vast majority of narratives, and you stamping your foot and saying otherwise is meaningless.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No I listened when Mitch McConnell said that the US does not want a trade war with Mexico, and Trump has no power to levy taxes. No jumping involved.

The story being quietly passed around Washington by Republicans is that Trump will be given enough rope to hang himself with while the party builds a strong case for impeachment.

There's his refusal to divest, his corporations making money from foreign governments booking events at his hotels which violates the Constitution, and his Executive Orders. McConnell is also supporting the full out investigation of Russian influence in the US election, and TrumpleThinSkin is very vulnerable on all scores.

McConnell hates Trump, and Paul Ryan has little use for him either. Trump is incompetent and unprepared. He still hasn't given the appropriate officials the names of his administration hires so that they can fill out the paperwork and the conflict of interest documentation in advance of their confirmation hearings.

So far, Trump has paraded a bunch of trust fund babies and Republican contributors, with few qualifications or experience, to form his cabinet. They're the richest, and least qualified cabinet in history. Trump put a guy who didn't graduate college in charge of the country's nuclear arsenal. Obama hired a nuclear physicist with a PHD. Big difference.

You are hilarious.

McConnell and Ryan are having wet dreams now that they finally have a GOP President. The last thing they want is to see Trump leaving office.

ROFLMAO, where do you people get this crazy crap?

You're the fool here.

If they impeach Trump, they still have a Republican President, Mike Pence. The difference being that Pence is a tame Republican that they can manage, and who knows the system.

Admittedly his threat of war against China was a real "Holy shit, did he just SAY that" moment, and then I muttered about him being ever dumber than his boss when it comes to foreign relations. Something I didn't think was remotely possible.

roflmao, Pence is not tame by any means.

Do a google search, anyone, to see what I mean.

 

[Dragonlady]

roflmao, Pence is not tame by any means.

Do a google search, anyone, to see what I mean.

Pence may be an idiot, but from the Republican perspective, he is a Republican Tea Party idiot, not a demogogue or an authoritarian, and unlike Trump, he can be managed or at least held in check. Trump is a loose cannon who starts more fires than he puts out.

Trump's EO banning Muslim immigration, entry of refugees to the US, and "extreme vetting" is already the subject of a class action law suit on behalf of those with valid visas who were detained at the airport upon arrival.

I don't think there is anything more craven and cowardly than refusing refugees safety. It violates every principle upon which your nation was founded, not to mention the teachings of Jesus Christ which so many right-wingers claim to follows.

The words on the Statue of Liberty ring hollow today.

Home of the brave, land of the free. Hardly. Home of the fearful, land of the cowards!

 

[jwoodie]

I don't think there is anything more craven and cowardly than refusing refugees safety.

I don't think there is anything more idiotic than admitting unvetted potential terrorists into our country. Are you aware of the havoc they are causing in Europe?

P.S. Are you a Christian? If not, why do you extol "the teachings of Jesus Christ?"

 

[Dragonlady]

Facts are used to construct the vast majority of narratives, and you stamping your foot and saying otherwise is meaningless.

I didn't say "facts aren't used to form narratives", I said "narratives are opinions, not facts". That you say that facts are used to form narratives proves that narratives aren't facts. You acknowledge that they are separate and distinct things.

Fact: Two jetliners were high-jacked and flown into the World Trade Centre in New York City on September 11, 2001. Thousands of people died. The jet liners were flown by middle-eastern men who had trained in the USA with visas. Al Qaeda, a Middle-Eastern terrorist group headed by Osama Bin Laden, claimed responsibility for the attack.

These are the facts not in dispute. Then we have conspiracy theorists who come along with this narrative: The government of the United States, under George W. Bush wanted an excuse to go to war, and so they planned an executed an attack on the World Trade Centre in New York, and made it look like the work of Middle-Eastern terrorists so they had an excuse to start a wars in the Middle East to further their geo-political goals. The towers were brought down by installed demolition devices planted by the government.

This is a narrative which is based on "alternative facts", or as I prefer to refer to them "conjecture and lies".

Right wingers are very fond of conspiracy theories, however convoluted, but then they also have penchant for rejecting the obvious and completely buying into a ridiculous narrative that can't possibly be true - like birtherism, or the fiction that Obama is a Muslim.

Such ignorance is laughable.