F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

Apparently this is a plane flying 3i software, so limited to 7.5gs yet still dancing around. Maybe we can get one more "can't turn can't climb" chant from the resident dumbass.

Block 3F later this year = 9gs limit.

They are already slowly installing the 3F package. When you know a F-35A is in the area, guess you just have to roll the dice whether you are facing a F-35A or F-35C or F-35B.

The max g limits on the C is 7.5 just like the F-18. While the B is limited to 6.5. Meanwhile, the A has a 9+ G limit. This is in the 3I software.

The 3F software was 100% written as of October 2016. It has more to do with the ground attack weapons than the Air to Air. It has nothing to do with the G limits imposed on the 3 versions.

The F-35B is the heaviest of the 3. It has the lowest G rating. Next is the F-35C and it has to limited exactly like the F-18 is. The lightest is the F-35A and it has the same G loading as the F-16.

What some use for the G capability is Sustained. The F-35A, in a quick turn, will pull up to 9.99 Gs. But in order to sustain the turn, it will have to back off to about 6.5 to 7.5. It's not the airframe that requires this, it's the pilot. If a Pilot were to keep doing 9.99 Gs in a sustained turn he would be out cold right after the initial turn started. So, like the F-22, the F-35A has a lower sustained G rating.

 

[DrainBamage]

The biggest additions to weapons in 3F includes support for AIM-9X for air to air, and SDB for ground attack.

F-35A with 3i software cannot pull 9Gs, that comes in block 3F.

 

[longknife]

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The biggest additions to weapons in 3F includes support for AIM-9X for air to air, and SDB for ground attack.

F-35A with 3i software cannot pull 9Gs, that comes in block 3F.

Care to give me an idea where you came up with that? Considering, in 2012, the F-35A was certified for Max 1.61 and 9.9Gs.

 

[DrainBamage]

Sure, it's right in the slides they have released detailing software versions:

F-35 Air Demo Debut Highlighted Combat Maneuvering
Gunn and Alan Norman, Lockheed’s chief test pilot, were repeatedly asked about the F-35’s dogfighting capabilities and limitations, given past reports that claimed the new strike fighter was not as capable as some legacy aircraft in short-range engagements. Both stayed positive, noting the F-35 is already highly capable and getting better all the time. For example, jets are currently limited to 7G turns with Block 3I mission software, but the next software block, which will begin rolling out in August, allows for 9G turns.

F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
The F-35 at the show is flying with Block 3i software, meaning it is limited to 7g. However, it can fly to above 50 degrees AoA.

Block 3F software aids F-35 weapons test
With its current Block 3I software, the F-35A is limited to 7g manoeuvres, rather than the 9g loads it is expected to handle with Block 3F.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Sure, it's right in the slides they have released detailing software versions:

F-35 Air Demo Debut Highlighted Combat Maneuvering
Gunn and Alan Norman, Lockheed’s chief test pilot, were repeatedly asked about the F-35’s dogfighting capabilities and limitations, given past reports that claimed the new strike fighter was not as capable as some legacy aircraft in short-range engagements. Both stayed positive, noting the F-35 is already highly capable and getting better all the time. For example, jets are currently limited to 7G turns with Block 3I mission software, but the next software block, which will begin rolling out in August, allows for 9G turns.

F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
The F-35 at the show is flying with Block 3i software, meaning it is limited to 7g. However, it can fly to above 50 degrees AoA.

Block 3F software aids F-35 weapons test
With its current Block 3I software, the F-35A is limited to 7g manoeuvres, rather than the 9g loads it is expected to handle with Block 3F.

Good reporting. But I know that the F-35A at Nellis has been recorded pulling at least one 9.99 G rate. You have to understand the way the Flyers of Fighters use terminology. Limited to means not supposed to go over. Our F-15As were "Limited to" 8.5 Gs. If you went over that you noticed that the G Meter would stick on your highest pulled G. The G Meter was conveniently placed where you had access to it by your boot. You just put your boot into it hard and wrote it up as a faulty G meter.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

This is from another area. And it makes good sense. In order to the F-16 and others to be combat ready and do the job the F-35A does, it has to be heavily loaded including at least two drop tanks. The Turn Rate is drastically reduced and the maximum allowable Gs degrades fast. A Fully loaded F-16 can't manage even a 6 g turn rate. In the Air Shows, the F-16 is completely clean and with just enough gas to do the show and a bit more. The F-35A is combat ready for the Air Show and can still get this type of performance. The F-35A with it's 7 G turn rate vs a F-16 combat loaded at 5 or 6 Gs, which would be the winner. You see, at combat rate, the F-35A still has a better than 1:1 thrust ratio. But a fully loaded out F-16C has about a .85:1 thrust to weight ratio. Here is another persons opinion.

(this area has many retired veteran flyers)

Airyx wrote:

We've gone to a lot of effort to develop off-boresight weapons
precisely so that aircraft don't have to engage in high-AOA maneuvers
to try to get a shot.

True. Most air show maneuvers will never be used anywhere BUT, at an airshow..AA is now a totally different kind of fight, and has been four about 25 years. F-16 pilots who have transitioned have to be retrained. They are conditioned to have to rapidly point the nose to shoot, now they can just shoot over their shoulder without making a turn at all.

Even though turning ACM will probably never happen again, some level of agility is still needed to try and get outside of the field of view of an inbound missile.


Actual flying says that the F-35A (the most agile of the three
variants) is limited to 7g instantaneous maneuvers. The F/A-18 is
7.5g and the F-16 is 9g. The F-35 is supposed to eventually have the
envelope opened to allow 9g instantaneous turns, but it'll never get
any better at continuous turns than it is right now.

One point on this...

Air show F-16s are totally cleaned-up for the show.

An F-35A, with 4 Aim-120s, 2 Aim-9s, and enough fuel to be on CAP station 250nm out for 3 hours can still make those same turns.

An F-16 can't do that mission without in-flight refueling, but you can put a pair of 370gal tanks, and an AN/ALQ-184 on it along with the same weapons to get pretty close. With that load, the F-16 can no longer pull 9g, nor can it stay on station for much more than an hour.

The bottom line is, once you put the gear onto an F-16 to make it actually capable of doing something, its air show performance is nullified...but an F-35As is not.

 

[DrainBamage]

It is the software that limits it to 7G turns right now, 3F will allow 9G.

This pilot mentions it a couple times, at 2:55 and 5:20.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It is the software that limits it to 7G turns right now, 3F will allow 9G.

This pilot mentions it a couple times, at 2:55 and 5:20.

Yet it's been reported by the Nellis Pilots that they can do and have done a 9.99 g turn. Officially, it's limited to 7 but Pilots are a stubborn lot. They look at 7 gs like it was a challenge to get more out of it

 

[Manonthestreet]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

 

[Daryl Hunt]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

One man's opinion and he isn't even a fighter pilot. Try again, skippy.

 

[Manonthestreet]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

One man's opinion and he isn't even a fighter pilot. Try again, skippy.

Not an opinion.....and since they all need repair good luck. Still wont risk one in ME even for a pr victory.......tells ya something

 

[Daryl Hunt]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

One man's opinion and he isn't even a fighter pilot. Try again, skippy.

Not an opinion.....and since they all need repair good luck. Still wont risk one in ME even for a pr victory.......tells ya something

Normally, the F-35A is at over 70%. The F-35B is usually higher than that. You take one week where some (notice the word some) are grounded for safety reasons and you think it's a license to use those figures for every day. Why aren't you dogging the F-18 that is much, much worse.

What use would the F-35 have in the ME when even the F-22 is just there right now. The two kills go to the F-18E and the F-15E. Unless they fire up and start locking on with their new S400 Radar. At that point, the F-22 and the F-35A get jobs. The F-35 is to busy scaring the hell out of the North Koreans and the Russians.

 

[Manonthestreet]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

One man's opinion and he isn't even a fighter pilot. Try again, skippy.

Not an opinion.....and since they all need repair good luck. Still wont risk one in ME even for a pr victory.......tells ya something

Normally, the F-35A is at over 70%. The F-35B is usually higher than that. You take one week where some (notice the word some) are grounded for safety reasons and you think it's a license to use those figures for every day. Why aren't you dogging the F-18 that is much, much worse.

What use would the F-35 have in the ME when even the F-22 is just there right now. The two kills go to the F-18E and the F-15E. Unless they fire up and start locking on with their new S400 Radar. At that point, the F-22 and the F-35A get jobs. The F-35 is to busy scaring the hell out of the North Koreans and the Russians.

but...but close air support chAMPion ....uuummmmm ummmmmm
all of need fixing right out of the factory.......and continue to need fixing as more crap is found

 

[Daryl Hunt]

F-35 Unreliability Risks Strain on Pentagon Budget, Tester Says

One man's opinion and he isn't even a fighter pilot. Try again, skippy.

Not an opinion.....and since they all need repair good luck. Still wont risk one in ME even for a pr victory.......tells ya something

Normally, the F-35A is at over 70%. The F-35B is usually higher than that. You take one week where some (notice the word some) are grounded for safety reasons and you think it's a license to use those figures for every day. Why aren't you dogging the F-18 that is much, much worse.

What use would the F-35 have in the ME when even the F-22 is just there right now. The two kills go to the F-18E and the F-15E. Unless they fire up and start locking on with their new S400 Radar. At that point, the F-22 and the F-35A get jobs. The F-35 is to busy scaring the hell out of the North Koreans and the Russians.

but...but close air support chAMPion ....uuummmmm ummmmmm
all of need fixing right out of the factory.......and continue to need fixing as more crap is found

Out of all the Attack or Fighter CAS, your vaunted A-10 is probably the worst in the ME right now. In order to get it into position, it's going to take a tanker just to get it 150 miles onto target. And since it has no choice but to stay at least 10k in altitude, it must loft in it's weapons. Just like the F-16, F-18, F-15. And it's a fair weather bird. Unlike the F-15E.

The baddest CAS is still and always has been the AC-130. You don't hear much about them since they are attached to special operations. But they are busy each and every day. Did you know (I doubt you do) that the original intent of the AC-130 was for CAS? Yes, way back in the late 60s. But they worked so well at night (overcast, etc.) that they also used it for enemy supply lines. But if you are going to try to do an overrun then an AC-130 would stop it cold.

Today, the AC-130U/J can attack at an altitude that AAA and ground fired weapons just can't reach it. Go ahead, bring your Tanks, Artillery and more. For the next 4 hours, death will come reigning down on your ranks.

The F-35A can already carry and deliver SBDs right on target from almost any altitude. And hit within a couple of feet from center. And in all sorts of bad weather. The F-35A will never be the best at it. The Best is still the AC-130 and has been for 50 years. But being second ain't so bad.

 

[longknife]

Just saw a squadron from another base out at Nellis AFB yesterday.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Five Signs the F-35 Fighter Is a Smashing Success | RealClearDefense

Five Signs the F-35 Fighter Is a Smashing Success


By Loren Thompson
June 20, 2017
This week's performance by the F-35 fighter at the Paris Air Show is a turning point for the world's most advanced multi-role fighter, demonstrating that even when fully loaded with combat gear, it can out-perform the tactical aircraft of every other country. Although prime contractor Lockheed Martin has always professed confidence F-35 would prove itself, a dwindling collection of critics continues to attack the plane citing outdated or simply erroneous arguments.

The critics fail to grasp that F-35 is one of the greatest technological achievements of this generation, a program that will assure global air dominance for the U.S. and its allies through mid-century. It also will help assure that aerospace remains America's most dynamic export sector. F-35 will generate tens of billions of dollars in trade earnings, and tens of thousands of jobs, from over a dozen foreign customers. The plane has never lost a competition in which it went head-to-head with other fighters.

However, the triumph of the F-35 is obscured by the way in which news is reported. Program coverage often highlights the latest development, good or bad, without capturing the steady progress made over 16 years since the development contract was first awarded, nor the high priority that three U.S. military services have continuously assigned the program through multiple presidencies. What follows, therefore, is a concise review of five areas of accomplishment that collectively demonstrate the F-35 program has become a smashing success.

Testing. This year the F-35 program will wrap up the most comprehensive flight test program in aviation history. The three variants of the fighter being built for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps have undergone 8,000 flights to gauge their performance without identifying a single show-stopper. Each of the variants has met all its "signature" specifications for stealthiness, making F-35 by far the most survivable fighter being built anywhere. Sensor fusion, networked operations, and other features have been thoroughly tested and retested, assuring the planes will always see first and fire first in aerial engagements. Tests of the Navy version were the most successful at-sea trials the service has ever conducted.

Operations. The Marine Corps version of the F-35 has been operational for two years and the Air Force version for one year. F-35s have deployed to Japan (from which they recently engaged in exercises with South Korea's military) and Europe (where they participated in exercises across the continent). Israel, the only Middle Eastern country approved to buy F-35, is also operating the plane. Over 200 F-35s have been delivered, with the number expected to rise to 600 in 2020. Over 400 pilots and 4,000 maintainers have been trained at 12 operating bases. In recent Red Flag exercises, the Air Force variant achieved a kill ratio of better than 20-to-1 against adversary aircraft while being available over 90% of the time.

Cost. The Air Force version of F-35, the one being bought by most allies, is projected to cost $85 million in 2019. That's about what the latest version of legacy fighters like the F-16 cost, equivalent to roughly ten minutes of federal spending at current rates. It is also less than what a 737 MAX, Boeing's smallest next-generation jetliner, lists for. The peak year for F-35 production is scheduled in 2026, at which point all the fighters for all three domestic military services will cost less than a single day's worth of federal spending ($13.6 billion versus $17.5 billion). If current trends hold up, the planes could be even cheaper: the price-tag for the Air Force version of F-35 fell 12% over the last two production lots.

Demand. Washington has not wavered from its plan to buy 2,457 F-35s since development began in 2001. Obviously, that would not be the case if the program had encountered major problems. It is unusual for three services to stick with a plan through multiple presidencies covering 16 years. Equally striking, almost all of the original international partners have stuck with the program, and several new players have signed on -- Denmark, Israel, Japan and South Korea. Canada is the only country that has wavered, and in all likelihood, it will return to the fold once it sees the advantages of buying a highly survivable fighter operated by most of its key allies. F-35 has emerged as the global gold standard of next-gen air power.

Pilots. The most telling testimonials to F-35 excellence come from the pilots who have flown the plane. The Navy reported after the first at-sea trials of the carrier version that "the aircraft demonstrated exceptional performance throughout its initial sea trials." More recently, a squadron commander who participated in last year's Northern Lightning exercise told an in-house Air Force publication, "I couldn't ask for anything better. It's like fighting somebody with their hands tied behind their backs." Another pilot flying adversary aircraft in the exercise remarked, "We just can't see them like they can see us. It can feel like you are out there with a blindfold on." Pilots generally say F-35 is far superior to legacy fighters.

If you are searching for a metaphor that captures what F-35 delivers to America's military, consider the example of two prize fighters. The next-generation contender has a stronger punch, a longer reach, and superior situational awareness. But he also has something else that transforms the fight -- he is invisible to his adversary. Whatever the other fellow's training might be, he can't see his rival to land a punch. So he's down before the first round is over. That's what makes the F-35 a game-changing aircraft, the one plane that can keep America's enemies at bay for another generation. It isn't just the best air power option the joint force has -- it's the only one that works in places like Eastern Europe and Northeast Asia.

Loren Thompson is chief operating officer of the Lexington Institute and taught nuclear strategy at Georgetown University.

 

[DrainBamage]

all of need fixing right out of the factory.......and continue to need fixing as more crap is found

As opposed to every other fighter aircraft in modern history...

Oh wait, this single engine aircraft has 90k hours without a crash, something we've never seen before.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Someone asked what the purpose of the Paris Airshow was about? I think it is quite apparent now. Do an outstanding job in your demonstrations and the orders come flying in. The F-35 did an outstanding flight and here comes the orders around the world (or at least the countries we will allow to have them). The only country left on the fence right now is Canada. NO big loss there since they will still be buying F-18E/Fs.

 

[Mushroom]

Someone asked what the purpose of the Paris Airshow was about? I think it is quite apparent now. Do an outstanding job in your demonstrations and the orders come flying in.

From it's founding, the Paris Air Show was always a trade show, just like the Paris Auto Show that it spun off of. A place for designers to show their newest equipment and concepts, in the hopes that somebody will buy it.

Not unlike Le Mans. Yes it is an auto race, but it is also an endurance contest that since the start car makers have prized to show the durability of their creations.