F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[I amso IR]

F35 is not the greatest program ever endeavored.

It's not a total bust, either, so somewhere in-between I suppose, slightly above fair-to-middling.

What then is one of the greatest endeavored.

The one that's been the most combat tactically successful.

Umh!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Military procurement bureaucrats listened to generals who wanted too much for too little. They wanted a stealth version of the Osprey that could do the VTOL stuff while flying at Mach+ speeds carrying a huge variety of armaments and payloads.

I think you mean the Harrier (AV8B), not the Osprey (OV-22).

And I for one have long recognized that the first run of just about any military equipment does not perform exactly as advertised. The M-16 was not reliable until the A1, the Arleigh Burke class destroyers were not really world class until the last of the first gens were launched, and the F-18 was originally rejected by the Navy, only being accepted after many years of upgrades and modifications.

And yes, a replacement for the Harrier is badly needed. An upgrade of the Vietnam era Harrier, even the youngest Marine Harrier II is over a decade old, and it is time to start seriously working on their replacement.

And yes, it is still needed. For a Marine Amphibious Force, this is often their only air to air defense when they are separated from a Carrier Battle Group.

I have worked with a great many pieces of equipment in the military over the years, and it had always gone through many modifications, so that it barely resembled the original models. And if somebody has a good eye, they can spot them.

That is a First Generation PATRIOT Missile launcher, a piece of equipment I am very familiar with. That one happens to be a the museum at the White Sands Missile Range (where I have inspected it in detail).

And there is a PAC III 3rd generation launcher. I can spot at least 7 differences in a 1 second glance to tell one from the other. Could the original shoot down an inbound ballistic missile? No. Could the original be rapidly emplaced with the entire Battery ready to fight in less then an hour? No. Was it able to do it's original job and shoot down enemy aircraft within 2 hours? Yes.

In short, I do not see this as a boondoggle. I simply see it as a program that is badly needed, to replace equipment that is dangerously close to the end of it's lifespan.

I am all for upgrading military equipment, and yes, nothing performs as advertised. However, the amount of money being squandered on the F-35 is horrific. That money could be used to upgrade small arms, artillery and other essential equipment that will actually get use in a low intensity warfare arena. The F-35 was designed to fight the Soviet Union and I would rather have the 14 A-10's that the money for a single F-35 would buy.

To be honest I am rather jaundiced when it comes to "stealth" aircraft. You simply don't need all aircraft to be stealthy. There are few operators with the capability to deal with 4th Gen aircraft as they stand now. Even more ridiculous is the stealthy Littoral Combat Vessel. I have never seen a stealth ship operating off shore, hide from the trusty old MK I eyeball.

You can see in the dark?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Put simply, improve the engine, avionics and weapons fit, and the Harrier will continue to be THE top of the line V/STOL aircraft in the world. There is nothing the F-35 can do that the Harrier can't do, other than fly at supersonic speeds, and be stealthy....which is a capability of dubious need when your mission is moving mud from low altitude.

What?

So the harrier will be superior despite the F-35 being able to fly much faster, have a superior combat radius, far better sensor suite and situational awareness, low observable allowing sorties in more heavily contested airspace, a larger weapons payload, and can function as a true air superiority fighter.

How will the Harrier continue to be the top V/STOL aircraft in the world?

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

 

[westwall]

Put simply, improve the engine, avionics and weapons fit, and the Harrier will continue to be THE top of the line V/STOL aircraft in the world. There is nothing the F-35 can do that the Harrier can't do, other than fly at supersonic speeds, and be stealthy....which is a capability of dubious need when your mission is moving mud from low altitude.

What?

So the harrier will be superior despite the F-35 being able to fly much faster, have a superior combat radius, far better sensor suite and situational awareness, low observable allowing sorties in more heavily contested airspace, a larger weapons payload, and can function as a true air superiority fighter.

How will the Harrier continue to be the top V/STOL aircraft in the world?

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Put simply, improve the engine, avionics and weapons fit, and the Harrier will continue to be THE top of the line V/STOL aircraft in the world. There is nothing the F-35 can do that the Harrier can't do, other than fly at supersonic speeds, and be stealthy....which is a capability of dubious need when your mission is moving mud from low altitude.

What?

So the harrier will be superior despite the F-35 being able to fly much faster, have a superior combat radius, far better sensor suite and situational awareness, low observable allowing sorties in more heavily contested airspace, a larger weapons payload, and can function as a true air superiority fighter.

How will the Harrier continue to be the top V/STOL aircraft in the world?

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

 

[westwall]

Put simply, improve the engine, avionics and weapons fit, and the Harrier will continue to be THE top of the line V/STOL aircraft in the world. There is nothing the F-35 can do that the Harrier can't do, other than fly at supersonic speeds, and be stealthy....which is a capability of dubious need when your mission is moving mud from low altitude.

What?

So the harrier will be superior despite the F-35 being able to fly much faster, have a superior combat radius, far better sensor suite and situational awareness, low observable allowing sorties in more heavily contested airspace, a larger weapons payload, and can function as a true air superiority fighter.

How will the Harrier continue to be the top V/STOL aircraft in the world?

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

What?

So the harrier will be superior despite the F-35 being able to fly much faster, have a superior combat radius, far better sensor suite and situational awareness, low observable allowing sorties in more heavily contested airspace, a larger weapons payload, and can function as a true air superiority fighter.

How will the Harrier continue to be the top V/STOL aircraft in the world?

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

Why do you think you can pull off that bullshit story? If you are seeing jet exhaust, you need to lay off the drugs while flying lest you be a hazard to yourself and others.

I am constantly around jet aircraft even now and have never seen what you claim. At night, a Blackhawk helicopter without running lights is damned near invisible flying 100 feet in the air, from any aspect. BTW, it has two great big jet engines on it!

Why don't you admit you exaggerated?

The next thing you will tell me is that you see the jet exhaust from gas turbine ship's engines.

 

[westwall]

You can retrofit all of the new avionics and situational awareness hardware (cameras mainly) onto a Harrier. You can stretch the airframe and reprofile the wings (aero already done) to improve the range and loiter time, the only thing the Harrier can't do that the F-35 can do, is go supersonic which for a CAS aircraft isn't necessary anyway. As far as the stealthy bit, show me how that prevents the MK I eyeball from spotting you?

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

Why do you think you can pull off that bullshit story? If you are seeing jet exhaust, you need to lay off the drugs while flying lest you be a hazard to yourself and others.

I am constantly around jet aircraft even now and have never seen what you claim. At night, a Blackhawk helicopter without running lights is damned near invisible flying 100 feet in the air, from any aspect. BTW, it has two great big jet engines on it!

Why don't you admit you exaggerated?

The next thing you will tell me is that you see the jet exhaust from gas turbine ship's engines.

You really love comparing apples to boulders don't you. Blackhawks have special baffles to prevent IR missiles from locking on to them. See that big piece that covers the engine exhaust in the picture below? Yes, that one. Go pound sand silly girl.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Night.

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

Why do you think you can pull off that bullshit story? If you are seeing jet exhaust, you need to lay off the drugs while flying lest you be a hazard to yourself and others.

I am constantly around jet aircraft even now and have never seen what you claim. At night, a Blackhawk helicopter without running lights is damned near invisible flying 100 feet in the air, from any aspect. BTW, it has two great big jet engines on it!

Why don't you admit you exaggerated?

The next thing you will tell me is that you see the jet exhaust from gas turbine ship's engines.

You really love comparing apples to boulders don't you. Blackhawks have special baffles to prevent IR missiles from locking on to them. See that big piece that covers the engine exhaust in the picture below? Yes, that one. Go pound sand silly girl.

You are the one smoking dope or something even harder!

You still haven't answered the question. What is it you are "seeing" on these F-18s? When they flew around my carrier and ships you don't see shit.

 

[DrainBamage]

2? Oh wow....bet they could shott down entire Russian AF by themself and never be seen........LLMMAAOOOOO Nothing but a sales pitch....

Feeble attempt at misdirection.

You said the plane didn't work and wasn't operational, clearly both wrong.

 

[DrainBamage]

F22 much better plane than f35 which everyone admits is not an air supe platform....meaning they cant clear the skies of aggressors.....meaning they will get shot down

As with most things you type on this forum, this is incorrect.

F-35 was designed to be and is the second best air superiority fighter in the world. You have been babbling about how they will get shot down since before they dominated every exercise they participated in, and here you are still babbling about getting shot down despite 20-1 kill ratio in Red Flag. Makes you look like a stubborn demagogue.

 

[DrainBamage]

Look at its own designation...strike fighter.......that aint air supe

Well that makes a lot of sense... let's judge whether the plane can dominate other aircraft by the name, instead of the actual air-to-air dominance it has been exhibiting. Let's ignore that poll of actual pilots on which plane they'd rather have that weighed so heavily in favor of F-35, and go with yet another article by random blogger.

The longer you stubbornly cling to your ideas that have been clearly proven wrong, the more foolish you look.

 

[DrainBamage]

meaning they will get shot down

“Red Flag confirmed F-35 dominance with a 20:1 kill ratio” U.S. Air Force says

Indeed, while early reports suggested a 15-1 kill ratio recent Air Force testimony by Lt. Gen. Jerry D. Harris, Vice Commander of Air Combat Command characterized the kill ratio as “20-1” meaning that, for one F-35A “lost” in simulated combat in a high threat environment that the aircraft destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft. During the same testimony, U.S. Marine Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, Deputy Commandant for Aviation, related a 24-0 kill ratio for U.S. Marine F-35B aircraft during a different exercise.

Can you look any more like a dumbass? I think not.

 

[westwall]

Good luck with that. Plenty of people can see the aircraft at night. Those jet exhausts are pretty freaking obvious. I'm a pilot, I fly at night not infrequently, and you can spot the F-18s from Fallon NAS from miles away at night.

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

Why do you think you can pull off that bullshit story? If you are seeing jet exhaust, you need to lay off the drugs while flying lest you be a hazard to yourself and others.

I am constantly around jet aircraft even now and have never seen what you claim. At night, a Blackhawk helicopter without running lights is damned near invisible flying 100 feet in the air, from any aspect. BTW, it has two great big jet engines on it!

Why don't you admit you exaggerated?

The next thing you will tell me is that you see the jet exhaust from gas turbine ship's engines.

You really love comparing apples to boulders don't you. Blackhawks have special baffles to prevent IR missiles from locking on to them. See that big piece that covers the engine exhaust in the picture below? Yes, that one. Go pound sand silly girl.

You are the one smoking dope or something even harder!

You still haven't answered the question. What is it you are "seeing" on these F-18s? When they flew around my carrier and ships you don't see shit.

It depends on where I am at the time. If I am over the desert and high I will see their shadow tracking over the ground before I see them. If I am flying over a city or town and high i will see their Nav lights first, then I will make out the silhouette. If I am lowdown over the desert I will spot them against the moon, or their Nav lights. And I don't have access to FLIR, where they show up like this....

Most military's have FLIR now, so, yet again, the MK I eyeball ignores Stealth tech.

 

[Manonthestreet]

meaning they will get shot down

“Red Flag confirmed F-35 dominance with a 20:1 kill ratio” U.S. Air Force says

Indeed, while early reports suggested a 15-1 kill ratio recent Air Force testimony by Lt. Gen. Jerry D. Harris, Vice Commander of Air Combat Command characterized the kill ratio as “20-1” meaning that, for one F-35A “lost” in simulated combat in a high threat environment that the aircraft destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft. During the same testimony, U.S. Marine Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, Deputy Commandant for Aviation, related a 24-0 kill ratio for U.S. Marine F-35B aircraft during a different exercise.

Can you look any more like a dumbass? I think not.

Indeed,,,its why Navy is alrdy working on its replacement before it gets into service....theres a first to be proud of.

 

[DrainBamage]

Indeed,,,its why Navy is alrdy working on its replacement before it gets into service....theres a first to be proud of.

So let's all try to follow Manonthestreet's logic here.... because the US Navy is pursuing development for the replacement of their F-18 wings (that is what F/A-XX is intended to replace) down the road, we can conclude that all this air-to-air dominance exhibited by F-35s in the air is false and they will get shot down as he claims. Manonthestreet believes all these pilots that actually fly in and against the F-35 are wrong, and he as the keyboard warrior with wonderful insight into US Navy motivations is right.

That is about as retarded as Manonthestreet saying F-35 isn't an air superiority fighter because it's name has the word "strike" in it.

Derp.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Bullshit! Unless those jets are in afterburner you won't see shit! Especially the F-22 and F-35 which are specifically designed to reduce their IR signature. Visual is impossible.

Go try that "I am a pilot so I know what I am talking about" line somewhere else, like maybe in a kindergarten class.

I specifically stated the F-18 silly girl and yes, they are easy to spot unless they are nose on. Let me know when you graduate to First Grade.

Why do you think you can pull off that bullshit story? If you are seeing jet exhaust, you need to lay off the drugs while flying lest you be a hazard to yourself and others.

I am constantly around jet aircraft even now and have never seen what you claim. At night, a Blackhawk helicopter without running lights is damned near invisible flying 100 feet in the air, from any aspect. BTW, it has two great big jet engines on it!

Why don't you admit you exaggerated?

The next thing you will tell me is that you see the jet exhaust from gas turbine ship's engines.

You really love comparing apples to boulders don't you. Blackhawks have special baffles to prevent IR missiles from locking on to them. See that big piece that covers the engine exhaust in the picture below? Yes, that one. Go pound sand silly girl.

You are the one smoking dope or something even harder!

You still haven't answered the question. What is it you are "seeing" on these F-18s? When they flew around my carrier and ships you don't see shit.

It depends on where I am at the time. If I am over the desert and high I will see their shadow tracking over the ground before I see them. If I am flying over a city or town and high i will see their Nav lights first, then I will make out the silhouette. If I am lowdown over the desert I will spot them against the moon, or their Nav lights. And I don't have access to FLIR, where they show up like this....

Most military's have FLIR now, so, yet again, the MK I eyeball ignores Stealth tech.

You are simply full of shit! With no moon, no nav lights, and no FLIR, you can't see!

Don't be such a dumbass trying to defend an indefensible position.

I'm done playing your stupid games.

 

[DrainBamage]

Most military's have FLIR now, so, yet again, the MK I eyeball ignores Stealth tech.

Most militaries including Aggressor Squadron at Red Flag, the ones consistently at the receiving end of ass whuppins by stealthy 5th gen aircraft who are still learning how to best employ them to advantage.

IRST/FLIR is no panacea for detecting and tracking stealth aircraft. It is a big sky and they can't search it very efficiently.

 

[DrainBamage]

Germany asks U.S. for classified briefing on Lockheed's F-35 fighter

Germany asks U.S. for classified briefing on Lockheed's F-35 fighter
In the letter, the Air Force said a small team of air force officers was gathering data to prepare for a detailed analysis of alternatives for a new warplane. The group was working closely with the ministry's "Task Force Future Air Combat System," which aims to make a recommendation for a political decision in mid-2018, the letter said. "In order to understand (the) F-35's cutting-edge technologies, the German Air Force is requesting a classified brief of the F-35's capabilities in general and especially concerning sensor suites, information management and operational capabilities," the letter said. The letter said a video conference suggested by U.S. officials in Bonn would help speed up the process. A source familiar with U.S. weapons programs said the classified briefing requested by Germany would likely last around eight hours.

This is in addition to the interest expressed by Switzerland, Belgium and Finland. Just as the village idiot Manonthestreet predicted, no international interest.

 

[DrainBamage]

Air Force: F-35 3F software drop challenges resolved -- Defense Systems
The Air Force expects to operationalize the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s latest “3F” software iteration by September or October of this year, a development which will integrate additional technology and equip the stealth aircraft with a wider range of weapons, service leaders said.

Block 3F includes internal carriage of eight SDBs, so much for the oft-repeated "can't carry enough weapons" argument.