F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[DrainBamage]

Ain't gonna happen. Too much support from congress and DoD.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Ain't gonna happen. Too much support from congress and DoD.

Sounds like Naval version is in real trouble...landing gear needs full rework.....Trump can go Jerry Ford and veto and tweet away......they'll never hold up under the pressure. I wold only buy the Marine version and some for AF.....not a great many just enough to keep up with retirements.....Ad in some of the F-15s we sell to others that are better than ours and move on to next design.......

 

[DrainBamage]

To be fair there have been lots of alarmist calls about whatever version of F-35 is in real trouble because of whatever hardware/software issue, yet the program marches forward with issues being addressed and pilots raving about the capabilities of the plane. No way the nose landing gear issues stops F-35, if I had to bet I'd wager they figure out a fix and have it in place within 18 months and well before F-35C production starts ramping up. Then again what do I know, so just a SWAG.

They spread the pork too far and wide for congress to turn against it. It sucks politics dictates supply chains need to be that way, but that is exactly what will keep congress on board.

 

[westwall]

I have served under Tac Airlift (showing my age a bit), TAC, MAC, AAC (it used to stand for Antique Aircraft Command in my day), 8th AF, USAFE, and more. I was part of the advance that ushered in the brand new F-15A to the first forward operational base. I am well aware of the problems of a new Weapons System. I was sent TDY to help the first forward operational F-16. I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to get a weapons system operational. Our F-15As had a 33% generation record. We found that unacceptable. But the AF said it was good since even Nellis couldn't get that high of a generation on the birds. It wasn't until the early 80s that the F-15A started working towards it's over 70% rate. It wasn't really our fault, it was our problem. They tied everything through the Radar. You lose Radar and you had a single seat grocery getter. The new radar taken from the new C model allowed the guns to be seperate and it released the Aim-9s from it as well. WE were in bad need of better engines. That was cured in the C model. Yes, it took about 10 years to get the F-15 up to speed and then it ruled for the next 30 years.
- Daryl Hunt

I'm not military ... just an oil company geologist
- Westwalll


There appears to be a slight difference in military background here.

Indeed there is. Here is where he worked....

And here is one of the many places i worked....

This is what he can fly

And this is one of the many aircraft I am rated on....I have actually flown this aircraft....

 

[DrainBamage]

He has worked with fighter aircraft operations and served in USAF, you have done neither and think going on business trips in the Sahara Desert makes you Indiana Jones, hell your picture even has a tourist on a camel being led by a guide if I had to guess it is outside Merzouga. You're way too impressed with yourself and show signs of serious self-esteem issues.

Oh and here is my wife on the Morocco/Algeria border area of the Sahara Desert, OH MY GOSH she is so brave and surely knows more about how fighter aircraft work than anyone who have actually worked with fighters in the US Air Force.

 

[westwall]

He has worked with fighter aircraft operations and served in USAF, you have done neither and think going on business trips in the Sahara Desert makes you Indiana Jones, hell your picture even has a tourist on a camel being led by a guide if I had to guess it is outside Merzouga. You're way too impressed with yourself and show signs of serious self-esteem issues.

Oh and here is my wife on the Morocco/Algeria border area of the Sahara Desert, OH MY GOSH she is so brave and surely knows more about how fighter aircraft work than anyone who have actually worked with fighters in the US Air Force.

He flew a desk in a office cubicle. I actually lived and worked in the deserts of Africa. Your wife took a wonderful "adventure trip" (and sometimes they truly can be a real adventure) and had fun for a couple of weeks. Good for her. On the other hand, when you work in an area populated by these sorts it's a tad bit different of an experience.

 

[Manonthestreet]

To be fair there have been lots of alarmist calls about whatever version of F-35 is in real trouble because of whatever hardware/software issue, yet the program marches forward with issues being addressed and pilots raving about the capabilities of the plane. No way the nose landing gear issues stops F-35, if I had to bet I'd wager they figure out a fix and have it in place within 18 months and well before F-35C production starts ramping up. Then again what do I know, so just a SWAG.

They spread the pork too far and wide for congress to turn against it. It sucks politics dictates supply chains need to be that way, but that is exactly what will keep congress on board.

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

 

[DrainBamage]

He flew a desk in a office cubicle. I actually lived and worked in the deserts of Africa. Your wife took a wonderful "adventure trip" (and sometimes they truly can be a real adventure) and had fun for a couple of weeks. Good for her. On the other hand, when you work in an area populated by these sorts it's a tad bit different of an experience.

That's pretty funny, you have googled up a picture of Ansar Dine in 2012. That surely proves you have lived an Indiana Jones like existence by going on business trips to Africa.

I'm thinking you are probably used to throwing you working in Africa around as some trump card to validate your opinions on any subject, but it isn't going to fly here. Being a geologist who has done work in Africa doesn't qualify your expertise on USAF combat jets and operations at all, and I find it hilarious you think it does.

 

[westwall]

He flew a desk in a office cubicle. I actually lived and worked in the deserts of Africa. Your wife took a wonderful "adventure trip" (and sometimes they truly can be a real adventure) and had fun for a couple of weeks. Good for her. On the other hand, when you work in an area populated by these sorts it's a tad bit different of an experience.

That's pretty funny, you have googled up a picture of Ansar Dine in 2012. That surely proves you have lived an Indiana Jones like existence by going on business trips to Africa.

I'm thinking you are probably used to throwing you working in Africa around as some trump card to validate your opinions on any subject, but it isn't going to fly here. Being a geologist who has done work in Africa doesn't qualify your expertise on USAF combat jets and operations at all, and I find it hilarious you think it does.

it was an easy picture to find on the net. I can upload some if you would like later, but more to the point they were the group who was shooting at us back in 1990-91. Like I said, I'm not military but I have been shot at, unlike your non hero.

 

[DrainBamage]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

 

[DrainBamage]

I can upload some if you would like later, but more to the point they were the group who was shooting at us back in 1990-91. Like I said, I'm not military but I have been shot at, unlike your non hero.

Ansar Dine was founded by Iyad Ag Ghaly in 2011 and operates in Mali. It takes a special talent to be shot at by a group 20 years before they even formed.

Being shot at by Muslim extremists in Africa makes one more knowledgeable of combat aircraft operations how exactly?

 

[westwall]

I can upload some if you would like later, but more to the point they were the group who was shooting at us back in 1990-91. Like I said, I'm not military but I have been shot at, unlike your non hero.

Ansar Dine was founded by Iyad Ag Ghaly in 2011 and operates in Mali. It takes a special talent to be shot at by a group 20 years before they even formed.

Being shot at by Muslim extremists in Africa makes one more knowledgeable of combat aircraft operations how exactly?

Yes, but their leader ghauly or whatever his name is, was part of the Tauregs, and thus the connection. Same leadership, same assholes, same area, different name.

 

[DrainBamage]

Quite a life of adventure being shot at so many times and in so many places, but still not sure how this qualifies one as being more knowledgeable about combat aircraft operations.

 

[westwall]

Quite a life of adventure being shot at so many times and in so many places, but still not sure how this qualifies one as being more knowledgeable about combat aircraft operations.

I actually FLY the darned things, unlike your desk jockey. For one. I have more than 3,000 hours as PIC. He has NONE. I have flown over some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world where if I fuck up, I die. He had to worry about if his coffee was too hot. Soooooo, practical flight experience in hostile terrain, or some dude wearing his "CHAIR BORNE" "wing".

And I actually have almost an hour in a MiG-21. So I actually have flown the fast mover that the F-16 was designed to defeat.

 

[DrainBamage]

I actually FLY the darned things, unlike your desk jockey. For one. I have more than 3,000 hours as PIC. He has NONE. I have flown over some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world where if I fuck up, I die. He had to worry about if his coffee was too hot. Soooooo, practical flight experience in hostile terrain, or some dude wearing his "CHAIR BORNE" "wing".

So in other words you have zero experience as a combat pilot. What is interesting is all these REAL combat pilots who have thousands of hours in F-16s, F-15s, and F-18s that have actually flown F-35 have a completely different take on it's capabilities than you do. Why do you think that is?

And I actually have almost an hour in a MiG-21. So I actually have flown the fast mover that the F-16 was designed to defeat.

Ah that's cool, you had some adventure dealie where you get to take the controls of a MIG-21 for a bit. That must be how all your intimate knowledge of CAS operations from fast movers came from. Well along with being constantly shot at in various countries spanning three decades.

 

[westwall]

I actually FLY the darned things, unlike your desk jockey. For one. I have more than 3,000 hours as PIC. He has NONE. I have flown over some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world where if I fuck up, I die. He had to worry about if his coffee was too hot. Soooooo, practical flight experience in hostile terrain, or some dude wearing his "CHAIR BORNE" "wing".

So in other words you have zero experience as a combat pilot. What is interesting is all these REAL combat pilots who have thousands of hours in F-16s, F-15s, and F-18s that have actually flown F-35 have a completely different take on it's capabilities than you do. Why do you think that is?

And I actually have almost an hour in a MiG-21. So I actually have flown the fast mover that the F-16 was designed to defeat.

Ah that's cool, you had some adventure dealie where you get to take the controls of a MIG-21 for a bit. That must be how all your intimate knowledge of CAS operations from fast movers came from. Well along with being constantly shot at in various countries spanning three decades.

Ummmmm, your hero that you've been defending, has no flight experience at all other than what he can get on a flight sim. I'll take mine over his any day of the week.

 

[DrainBamage]

Ummmmm, your hero that you've been defending, has no flight experience at all other than what he can get on a flight sim. I'll take mine over his any day of the week.

You didn't answer the question.

Why do real pilots who flown F-35 and have thousands of hours in F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s have a completely different opinion of the plane than you do? If bragging about being a non-combat pilot with zero military experience gives weight to opinion, how much weight do actual military pilots get?

 

[westwall]

Ummmmm, your hero that you've been defending, has no flight experience at all other than what he can get on a flight sim. I'll take mine over his any day of the week.

You didn't answer the question.

Why do real pilots who flown F-35 and have thousands of hours in F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s have a completely different opinion of the plane than you do? If bragging about being a non-combat pilot with zero military experience gives weight to opinion, how much weight do actual military pilots get?

I have no idea. It must be an absolute hoot to fly. It certainly will have better situational awareness for the pilot when they finally get the helmet to work. But that's not the question for the umpteenth time. That question is the exorbitant cost worth it? I say no. If the pilots were informed of how few were able to be flown they probably would rather have three Block 60 or 61 F-16's that they will actually be able to fly, for the one F-35 that will be spending the majority of its time in the hangar.

That's the ultimate problem for the pilots, having enough aircraft, that are serviceable, for them to accumulate hours.

 

[peach174]

Ummmmm, your hero that you've been defending, has no flight experience at all other than what he can get on a flight sim. I'll take mine over his any day of the week.

You didn't answer the question.

Why do real pilots who flown F-35 and have thousands of hours in F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s have a completely different opinion of the plane than you do? If bragging about being a non-combat pilot with zero military experience gives weight to opinion, how much weight do actual military pilots get?

I have no idea. It must be an absolute hoot to fly. It certainly will have better situational awareness for the pilot when they finally get the helmet to work. But that's not the question for the umpteenth time. That question is the exorbitant cost worth it? I say no. If the pilots were informed of how few were able to be flown they probably would rather have three Block 60 or 61 F-16's that they will actually be able to fly, for the one F-35 that will be spending the majority of its time in the hangar.

That's the ultimate problem for the pilots, having enough aircraft, that are serviceable, for them to accumulate hours.

Not only that but they're so loud.
Three of them flew into Davis Monthan as I was leaving Tucson on Mon.
None of the pilots there like them.

 

[DrainBamage]

That question is the exorbitant cost worth it? I say no. If the pilots were informed of how few were able to be flown they probably would rather have three Block 60 or 61 F-16's that they will actually be able to fly, for the one F-35 that will be spending the majority of its time in the hangar.

Pinning down flyaway unit cost on any aircraft is difficult, but you sure as hell aren't getting three F-16Es for one F-35A. F-35As in the just completed LRIP-9 had a flyaway cost $102 million each, Bogdan has said LRIP-10 will be 95-95 million, with eventual 85 million in full production. I don't know the unit cost of newest F-16 (I'll look later I think UAE bought some recently) but latest F-18s bought by USN were 78 million each.

The plane is only in initial operating capacity, we have no idea what reliability will be so you're basing part of your argument on unfounded conjecture.