F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[westwall]

That question is the exorbitant cost worth it? I say no. If the pilots were informed of how few were able to be flown they probably would rather have three Block 60 or 61 F-16's that they will actually be able to fly, for the one F-35 that will be spending the majority of its time in the hangar.

Pinning down flyaway unit cost on any aircraft is difficult, but you sure as hell aren't getting three F-16Es for one F-35A. F-35As in the just completed LRIP-9 had a flyaway cost $102 million each, Bogdan has said LRIP-10 will be 95-95 million, with eventual 85 million in full production. I don't know the unit cost of newest F-16 (I'll look later I think UAE bought some recently) but latest F-18s bought by USN were 78 million each.

The plane is only in initial operating capacity, we have no idea what reliability will be so you're basing part of your argument on unfounded conjecture.

All up cost for a Block 60 is 55 million (it helps that over 4500 of them have been built) The best estimate for the F-35 is 176 million. So a little bit better than 3 F-16's for one F-35. Numbers don't lie.

 

[westwall]

Ummmmm, your hero that you've been defending, has no flight experience at all other than what he can get on a flight sim. I'll take mine over his any day of the week.

You didn't answer the question.

Why do real pilots who flown F-35 and have thousands of hours in F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s have a completely different opinion of the plane than you do? If bragging about being a non-combat pilot with zero military experience gives weight to opinion, how much weight do actual military pilots get?

I have no idea. It must be an absolute hoot to fly. It certainly will have better situational awareness for the pilot when they finally get the helmet to work. But that's not the question for the umpteenth time. That question is the exorbitant cost worth it? I say no. If the pilots were informed of how few were able to be flown they probably would rather have three Block 60 or 61 F-16's that they will actually be able to fly, for the one F-35 that will be spending the majority of its time in the hangar.

That's the ultimate problem for the pilots, having enough aircraft, that are serviceable, for them to accumulate hours.

Not only that but they're so loud.
Three of them flew into Davis Monthan as I was leaving Tucson on Mon.
None of the pilots there like them.

They're no louder than a F-15. The vectored thrust will concentrate it into a smaller area, but the sound level is basically the same. We had two of them fly in to the Reno Air Races where they were supposed to do the Heritage Flight. Both broke down on landing and weren't able to fly out till the next wednesday.

 

[DrainBamage]

All up cost for a Block 60 is 55 million (it helps that over 4500 of them have been built) The best estimate for the F-35 is 176 million. So a little bit better than 3 F-16's for one F-35. Numbers don't lie.

Numbers don't lie, but you sure do.

I already posted the LRIP-9 information, it isn't an estimate it is a contract to buy F-35s with flyaway cost of 102 million. Your response was a three year blog post making estimates and to scream that the update information actually provided by DoD is lies. When you say "best estimate" what you really mean is a three year old one that paints the situation the way you want it to.

Do you have a source for your F-16 Block 60 numbers? Given you tendency to make false claims I think providing a source should be a requirement.

 

[DrainBamage]

We had two of them fly in to the Reno Air Races where they were supposed to do the Heritage Flight. Both broke down on landing and weren't able to fly out till the next wednesday.

Another lie from Westwall, F-35s were always intended for static display at Reno Air Races.

hhttp://www.nvracingnews.com/2016/09/17/air-race-update-saturday-sept-17/
This year’s static display area is a great chance to see F-18’s, F-35’s as well as an F-15 and both Phantoms.

High speeds in the sky at Reno Air Races
“We are also excited that on its first-ever tour of air show performances, Reno will see two F-35s in the line of static displays,” Crowell said.

You just kind of say whatever pops into your head don't you?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Invalid when you are setting records in fail

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I actually FLY the darned things, unlike your desk jockey. For one. I have more than 3,000 hours as PIC. He has NONE. I have flown over some of the most inhospitable terrain in the world where if I fuck up, I die. He had to worry about if his coffee was too hot. Soooooo, practical flight experience in hostile terrain, or some dude wearing his "CHAIR BORNE" "wing".

So in other words you have zero experience as a combat pilot. What is interesting is all these REAL combat pilots who have thousands of hours in F-16s, F-15s, and F-18s that have actually flown F-35 have a completely different take on it's capabilities than you do. Why do you think that is?

And I actually have almost an hour in a MiG-21. So I actually have flown the fast mover that the F-16 was designed to defeat.

Ah that's cool, you had some adventure dealie where you get to take the controls of a MIG-21 for a bit. That must be how all your intimate knowledge of CAS operations from fast movers came from. Well along with being constantly shot at in various countries spanning three decades.

With his disposition, he probably gets shot at at Starbucks. I know it would be tempting when he started in on the Baristas.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Invalid when you are setting records in fail

It's all part of bringing a new modern front lined fighter to do it's job. The Complexity of the F-15 and the F-16 brought us into a new way of thinking and developing fighters. The F-35 has done the same but at a much higher level.

BTW, I spent more than my fair share of time in parameter bunkers manning an M-16. Have you ever vectored in an F-4 onto a bad guy knowing that you are going to lose your eyebrows to the heat, I have.

I have first hand knowledge about what it takes to vector in a CAS. And I didn't give a damned on what type of aircraft doing the drop was. Just get the damned drop done and do it right. The Birds depended more on the guy vectoring them in than whether they were popular with the grunts or not. When your butts on the line, you can't afford to be picky. Radio Transmission "Hell, I don't want your stinking F-16 to do the job so I will wait until I can get the next available A-10 because well all............" Transmission abruptly ended due to the radio being melted down. Mission failure.

Just because a person sits at a desk doesn't mean that's all they are or have been. I have some pretty nasty memory lapses that I don't care to revisit. The Scrap book is full.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Invalid when you are setting records in fail

If you are such an Expert, tell me which AC that those two terms comes from?

 

[westwall]

All up cost for a Block 60 is 55 million (it helps that over 4500 of them have been built) The best estimate for the F-35 is 176 million. So a little bit better than 3 F-16's for one F-35. Numbers don't lie.

Numbers don't lie, but you sure do.

I already posted the LRIP-9 information, it isn't an estimate it is a contract to buy F-35s with flyaway cost of 102 million. Your response was a three year blog post making estimates and to scream that the update information actually provided by DoD is lies. When you say "best estimate" what you really mean is a three year old one that paints the situation the way you want it to.

Do you have a source for your F-16 Block 60 numbers? Given you tendency to make false claims I think providing a source should be a requirement.

It's a blog post written by experts in the field, who are not beholding to LM, and which is ACTUAL cost. Not an "estimate" which is what you have presented. An estimate that doesn't take into account the fact that the aircraft is STILL in development, which means, to a thinking person at least, that the estimate is crap.

F-16 cost « Defense Issues

 

[westwall]

We had two of them fly in to the Reno Air Races where they were supposed to do the Heritage Flight. Both broke down on landing and weren't able to fly out till the next wednesday.

Another lie from Westwall, F-35s were always intended for static display at Reno Air Races.

hhttp://www.nvracingnews.com/2016/09/17/air-race-update-saturday-sept-17/
This year’s static display area is a great chance to see F-18’s, F-35’s as well as an F-15 and both Phantoms.

High speeds in the sky at Reno Air Races
“We are also excited that on its first-ever tour of air show performances, Reno will see two F-35s in the line of static displays,” Crowell said.

You just kind of say whatever pops into your head don't you?

I don't lie dummy. Here is the RARA announcement. Funny how you avoided going to the source.... Dumbshit.


"F-35

For the first time ever, an F-35 fighter jet, piloted by Maj. William Andreotta, USAF, and assigned to Luke Air Force Base in the Phoenix suburb of Glendale will visit air shows across the country this year.

The jet will make its first appearance as part of the Air Force Heritage Flight program at Luke’s air show on April 2nd and 3rd and then travel to air shows nationwide, including Reno.

The heritage flight program, of which the F-35 is a part, teams up current Air Force fighters with planes from the World War II, Korean and Vietnam eras in a dynamic display of our nation’s airpower history.

Tickets are on sale for the 53rd Annual National Championship Air Races held September 14-18, 2016 at Reno Stead Airport. For more information, or to volunteer, visit http://airrace.org.

 

[westwall]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Hell, why not mention the "Wobblin Gobblin" too......

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Hell, why not mention the "Wobblin Gobblin" too......

Translation from Westwall: I have no idea so I will try and reflect my way out of yet another series of lies.

 

[westwall]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Hell, why not mention the "Wobblin Gobblin" too......

Translation from Westwall: I have no idea so I will try and reflect my way out of yet another series of lies.

Poor daryl, no, I know them, just wanted to see if you were as "expert" as you claim and you failed yet again. The Lawn Dart sobriquet was given to two aircraft, the F-16 and the B1. The Fiscal Fiasco never made it into general enough usage to be known by more than a few people the more common form of it being FRED, Fantastic Ridiculous Economic Disaster which was applied to the C5 Galaxy.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The pork will kill it......In 18 months how many more problems will be Id'd.....At current rate could be half dozen.....After fix is found then you have to mod all production planes which means what.....Another 12 to 24 months......By that time new design may be rdy to prototype.....f-35 is entering stopgap twilight to be ashcanned asap

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Hell, why not mention the "Wobblin Gobblin" too......

Translation from Westwall: I have no idea so I will try and reflect my way out of yet another series of lies.

Poor daryl, no, I know them, just wanted to see if you were as "expert" as you claim and you failed yet again. The Lawn Dart sobriquet was given to two aircraft, the F-16 and the B1. The Fiscal Fiasco never made it into general enough usage to be known by more than a few people the more common form of it being FRED, Fantastic Ridiculous Economic Disaster which was applied to the C5 Galaxy.

You are 1/3rd right. It's the F-16 that is nicked the lawn dart, not the B-1. The B-1 is nicked The Bone. And the fiscal fiasco went to the F-15. So much for you displaying your huge brain. Instead you display your little itty bitty manhood for all to see.

 

[there4eyeM]

Small, numerous and deadly is the formula. 'Big and expensive' is dangerous. Even WWII showed that to a great extent. Lots of little swarming airplanes sank four Japanese aircraft carriers in something like five minutes, changing the tactical situation immediately and finally, strategically.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Small, numerous and deadly is the formula. 'Big and expensive' is dangerous. Even WWII showed that to a great extent. Lots of little swarming airplanes sank four Japanese aircraft carriers in something like five minutes, changing the tactical situation immediately and finally, strategically.

True for then. Now, the small and numerous goes to missiles. Those have to be stopped. The F-35 has the ability to see them and direct war ships into picking them up at a safe distance. In order to stop this, the enemy must kill all the F-35s. Meanwhile, they are losing 4 to one to the F-35 and getting slaughtered by the surface ships. When it's all over, the F-18 can safely operate.

 

[DrainBamage]

I don't lie dummy. Here is the RARA announcement. Funny how you avoided going to the source.... Dumbshit.

I provided two links specific to Reno events saying it would be TWO F-35s on static display.

You dug up some general describing what a Heritage Flight is and the ONE F-35 that will be doing it. Can you explain why program guides for Reno say static display? Nope. Because you lied. Again.

Reno Championship Air Races | U.S. Navy Blue Angels to Headline 2016 RARA Performers List


RARA President and CEO Mike Crowell said. “We are also excited that on its first ever tour of air show performances, Reno will see an F-35 in the line of static displays

You were claiming they were supposed to fly in the show but broke on landing is a classic Westwall off the cuff lie.

 

[westwall]

I'm sure they'll find more problems, happens with every new fighter aircraft. They lost ten F-15s in the 1970s, the first from an electrical fire before Eagle even entered service. Plenty of F-16s went down, everything from engine failures to landing gear issues to sensors. I lost count of how many major incidents with F-18s happened last year, the last was in December that grounded them to investigate canopy.

Modern fighter aircraft are complex systems and have problems, if anything F-35 is remarkable as a single engine fighter with zero crashes after over 60,000 flight hours.

Obviously I have no idea how long it will take to design a fix for the F-35C nose gear issue, but after the engine problem that caused the fire in 2015 they developed a fix fairly quickly and were rolling it out to 130 aircraft by early 2016. There aren't many F-35Cs out there right now and USN was only planning on buying four more in 2017, so I can't imagine this issue having that big an impact on the F-35 program.

Ah, remember the term "Lawn Dart". or how about "Fiscal Fiasco". Welcome to the humble beginnings of a new Weapons System.

Hell, why not mention the "Wobblin Gobblin" too......

Translation from Westwall: I have no idea so I will try and reflect my way out of yet another series of lies.

Poor daryl, no, I know them, just wanted to see if you were as "expert" as you claim and you failed yet again. The Lawn Dart sobriquet was given to two aircraft, the F-16 and the B1. The Fiscal Fiasco never made it into general enough usage to be known by more than a few people the more common form of it being FRED, Fantastic Ridiculous Economic Disaster which was applied to the C5 Galaxy.

You are 1/3rd right. It's the F-16 that is nicked the lawn dart, not the B-1. The B-1 is nicked The Bone. And the fiscal fiasco went to the F-15. So much for you displaying your huge brain. Instead you display your little itty bitty manhood for all to see.

Sure thing "dude" It seems that MIT disagree's with you....


Flying Gas Station Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker
Flying Prostitute Martin B-26 Marauder
Flying Potato Martin-Marietta X-24A
Flying Flatiron Martin-Marietta X-24B
Flying Shithouse Kaman HH-43 Huskie
Flying Suitcase Handley Page Hampden
Flying Speed Brake Lockheed Constellation
Flying Washboard Ford Trimotor
FOD Vacuum Northrop F-89 Scorpion
Ford Douglas F4D Skyray
Fork-tailed Devil Lockheed P-38 Lightning
FRED Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
(Fantastic Ridiculous Economic Disaster)
Fritz Messerschmitt Bf 109F
Frog Martin P5M Mariner


Kobry ("Cobra") Bell P-39 Airacobra
Kraft Ei (power egg) Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet
Kukuruznik Antonov An-2
Lanc Avro Lancaster
Lawn Dart General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
Lawn Dart Rockwell B-1 Lancer
Lead Sled McDonnell F3H Demon
Lead Sled Republic F-84 Thunderjet
Lead Sled Republic F-105 Thunderchief



Aircraft Nicknames

 

[westwall]

I don't lie dummy. Here is the RARA announcement. Funny how you avoided going to the source.... Dumbshit.

I provided two links specific to Reno events saying it would be TWO F-35s on static display.

You dug up some general describing what a Heritage Flight is and the ONE F-35 that will be doing it. Can you explain why program guides for Reno say static display? Nope. Because you lied. Again.

Reno Championship Air Races | U.S. Navy Blue Angels to Headline 2016 RARA Performers List


RARA President and CEO Mike Crowell said. “We are also excited that on its first ever tour of air show performances, Reno will see an F-35 in the line of static displays

You were claiming they were supposed to fly in the show but broke on landing is a classic Westwall off the cuff lie.

And I provided you the OFFICIAL announcement. How ignorant are you trying to be?