Explosions in Kiev?

[occupied]

I suppose if the North Korean people got tired of being oppressed and erupted into "massively violent protests", tinydancer et al. would be writing emails asking why our government is criticizing the North Korean leader, and wondering aloud if we would put up with that kind of behavior here.

Not at all the same. The Ukrainian president was elected. He is also a sane person.

That remains to be seen, if he refuses to make concessions and loses control of his country he's a megalomaniac. A government must be responsive to it's citizens, in this case it is a Russian speaking asshole, backed up by Russia against native speaking Ukrainians, to them he is an occupation puppet of Russia and not really legitimate.

 

[NightFox]

The conservatives on this board need to take a good look at what tyranny actually looks like and consider that they seem like spoiled infants when they talk of horrible tyranny like taxes and social programs here.

What a ringing endorsement for statism, you can have;

option a.) State thugs butchering it's own citizenry in the streets
-OR-
behind curtain B we have ) theft, forced redistribution and propagandist programming

Statism the freedom to choose your favorite flavors of exploitation and oppression....

"Many now believe that with the rise of the totalitarian State the world has entered upon a new era of barbarism. It has not. The totalitarian State is only the State; the kind of thing it does is only what the State has always done with unfailing regularity, if it had the power to do it, wherever and whenever its own aggrandizement made that kind of thing expedient. Give any State like power hereafter, and put it in like circumstances, and it will do precisely the same kind of thing. The State will unfailingly aggrandize itself, if only it has the power, first at the expense of its own citizens, and then at the expense of anyone else in sight. It has always done so, and always will." --- Albert Jay Nock

 

[whitehall]

Where is the Secretary of State? Is John Kerry really more interested in global warming than terrorism?

 

[occupied]

If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?

The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans. That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.

Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.

 

[tinydancer]

What should happen is a truce. But the protestors broke the truce and stormed the police and captured 67 policemen.

But the ideal solution is a truce and a country wide referendum on joining or not joining the EU to be held as soon as possible.

 

[Katzndogz]

If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?

The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans. That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.

Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.

That IS the situation. You just don't like it.

 

[tinydancer]

If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?

The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans. That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.

Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.

Many people believed the "protests" in Syria were "pro democracy" until it was discovered that the so called rebels were paid mercenaries and AQ was taking over.

I'm not saying it's the same situation in the Ukraine but this is an armed insurrection that must be quelled.

The ballot box with a referendum is the way to settle this.

 

[occupied]

If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?

The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans. That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.

Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.

That IS the situation. You just don't like it.

What you are missing is that the country is controlled by what is essentially an immigrant population of native Russians and they are throwing their weight around and treating the native Ukrainians like second-class citizens. It was primed for civil unrest like no other European country and the president deliberately went ahead and lit the fuse. The Ukrainians know what it means to be subjects of Russian rule and they are pretty damned sick of it by now.

 

[Decus]

The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.

"Transparency International reported on rampant growth of corruption and emergence of "The Family," a new clan of presidential loyalists from Yanukovych's home region headed by his eldest son Oleksandr who, although a dentist by profession, entered the list of the Top 50 wealthiest people in Ukraine. In the former U.S.S.R., only four Central Asian countries had worse levels of corruption than Ukraine, TI said, while the Heritage Foundation ranked Ukraine with the least economic freedom in Europe."

"The image of Yanukovych and his administration dramatically changed to violent kleptocrat after a tally of seven dead (including an Armenian and Belarusian), 2,000 protesters wounded, 136 journalists attacked, 30 protesters kidnapped and 120 detained."

"(Taras Kuzio is a research associate at the Center for Political and Regional Studies, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta.)"

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com
.

 

[emilynghiem]

Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:

""Associated Press journalist Yuras Karmanau describes the carnage in Kiev: "When I walked out into the Maidan, clad in a helmet and a flak jacket, I saw bodies lying on the pavement. Ten in one place, another six a short walk away, five more farther away. The demonstrators were killed with precise shots to their heads or necks, the hallmarks of snipers.""

BBC News - LIVE: Ukraine unrest: Clashes in central Kiev

You could also check out this live feed from the Ukraine. Every 30 minutes or so they show the days' events - one segment is protestors hiding bend homemade shields being picked off by police snipers. Very clear and very graphic so don't watch if this may be upsetting to you.

Live

KyivPost / Independence. Community. Trust is a Ukranian newspaper in English whose editor is American.

The conservatives on this board need to take a good look at what tyranny actually looks like and consider that they seem like spoiled infants when they talk of horrible tyranny like taxes and social programs here.

On the contrary: the conservatives say it's the liberals who need to take a good look at what happens in other countries when you let govt run amok without checks and balances.

the conservatives complain all the time about the "liberal agenda" of politicians keeping people dependent as a bunch of whining victims on welfare, when people in other countries don't make 50 cents a day, and here people protest about not making 15.00 an hour at lower paying jobs that can't be supported at that rate.

we gripe about benefits, when people in other countries would LOVE to be paid NOT to work. what a concept.

yet we fight over extending benefits and wanting govt to make companies pay for this that and the other. wah wah wah. why not build your own company, and try creating jobs for yourself and others? some people don't even have that freedom or ability or access like we do in this country.

yet people whine over here, waiting for GOVT to create jobs and MAKE companies pay better benefits. totally backwards from how our system was designed to REWARD citizens and states with freedom to create and manage our own economy under limited govt.

 

[tinydancer]

Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.

That IS the situation. You just don't like it.

What you are missing is that the country is controlled by what is essentially an immigrant population of native Russians and they are throwing their weight around and treating the native Ukrainians like second-class citizens. It was primed for civil unrest like no other European country and the president deliberately went ahead and lit the fuse. The Ukrainians know what it means to be subjects of Russian rule and they are pretty damned sick of it by now.

Less than 15%. Give me a break. And bottom line the ELECTED government took the sweeter deal. Russia's offers over the EU made the day.

Moments ago, the fight over Ukraine ended. Russia won, and not only pledged $15 billion in future Ukraine investments, but de facto became the lender of last resort for the troubled nation.

PUTIN SAYS RUSSIA-UKRAINE TALKS IN MOSCOW WERE CONSTRUCTIVE

PUTIN SAYS GAZPROM TO SELL GAS TO UKRAINE AT $268.50

PUTIN SAYS UKRAINE BENEFITING FROM DISCOUNT ON RUSSIAN GAS

PUTIN: RUSSIA TO USE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND TO INVEST IN UKRAINE

PUTIN SAYS RUSSIA TO INVEST $15B IN UKRAINIAN SECURITIES

PUTIN SAYS UKRAINE'S MEMBERSHIP IN CUSTOMS UNION NOT DISCUSSED

SILUANOV SAYS UKRAINE TO SELL $15B BONDS TO RUSSIA IN 2013-14

Europe, like a jilted lover, was sad but understood it had been bested.

GERMANY’S STEINMEIER: EU’S OVERTURE TO UKRAINE FELL SHORT
STEINMEIER: EU MAY HAVE UNDERESTIMATED RUSSIA DETERMINATION


Europe Officially Loses Fight For Ukraine, Russia Wins | Zero Hedge

 

[francoHFW]

OP- Possibly because he's a dictator who rigs all his elections period. And yes the networks have footage of POLICE snipers just plain killing people. They're dying for real elections...

 

[tinydancer]

The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.

"Transparency International reported on rampant growth of corruption and emergence of "The Family," a new clan of presidential loyalists from Yanukovych's home region headed by his eldest son Oleksandr who, although a dentist by profession, entered the list of the Top 50 wealthiest people in Ukraine. In the former U.S.S.R., only four Central Asian countries had worse levels of corruption than Ukraine, TI said, while the Heritage Foundation ranked Ukraine with the least economic freedom in Europe."

"The image of Yanukovych and his administration dramatically changed to violent kleptocrat after a tally of seven dead (including an Armenian and Belarusian), 2,000 protesters wounded, 136 journalists attacked, 30 protesters kidnapped and 120 detained."

"(Taras Kuzio is a research associate at the Center for Political and Regional Studies, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta.)"

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com
.

I know who he is.

He has his opinion. I disagree.

 

[tinydancer]

OP- Possibly because he's a dictator who rigs all his elections period. And yes the networks have footage of POLICE snipers just plain killing people. They're dying for real elections...

To my topic in the OP, would or should Obama or Harper allow violent protests on Capitol Hill or Parliament Hill?

They are criticizing the elected government of the Ukraine for responding to an insurrection.

These protestors have started fires, have been bombarding security with molotov cocktails, shooting at them, killing them and kidnapping them.

Seriously, would Obama allow protests like this on Capitol Hill or in front of the White House?

Would Prime Minister Harper allow the RCMP to be firebombed, killed and captured?

That is the question I am asking.

Oh and by the way in both our countries we have citizens who believe both Obama and Harper act like dictators and rig elections so your post regarding your opinion of the Ukrainian Prime Minister really doesn't mean jack shit in the greater comparison.

 

[whitehall]

Do they make golf balls in the Ukraine? Otherwise Barry ain't interested.

 

[Katzndogz]

They had a referendum in 2008. Only 12% supported the EU.

 

[Decus]

The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.

"Transparency International reported on rampant growth of corruption and emergence of "The Family," a new clan of presidential loyalists from Yanukovych's home region headed by his eldest son Oleksandr who, although a dentist by profession, entered the list of the Top 50 wealthiest people in Ukraine. In the former U.S.S.R., only four Central Asian countries had worse levels of corruption than Ukraine, TI said, while the Heritage Foundation ranked Ukraine with the least economic freedom in Europe."

"The image of Yanukovych and his administration dramatically changed to violent kleptocrat after a tally of seven dead (including an Armenian and Belarusian), 2,000 protesters wounded, 136 journalists attacked, 30 protesters kidnapped and 120 detained."

"(Taras Kuzio is a research associate at the Center for Political and Regional Studies, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta.)"

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com
.

I know who he is.

He has his opinion. I disagree.

The article cites several independent institutions that have come to the conclusion that Yanukovych is corrupt. Are institutions like Transparency International also wrong? Please know that I'm not trying to pick a fight but just trying to understand.

"At least 18 Party of Regions deputies have criminal ties, according to Hennadiy Moskal, deputy head of Parliament's Committee on Organized Crime and Corruption."

"The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Council of Europe and Western governments criticized the November 2012 parliamentary elections as not meeting democratic standards."

"This was reinforced by images of Automobile-Maydan leader Dmytro Bulatov who had been kidnapped and tortured in what Amnesty International described as a "barbaric act.""

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com

 

[1776]

The Ukraine president is a Putin puppet, he was bought off to align with Russia and not the EU going against the wishes of the Ukrainians. So he has been trying to stop the protests against his Russia policies like a typical left-wing dictator does.

The deaths of the police are not good...but who says the Russians aren't involved??? Why not plant some Russian goons in the crowd to start a riot/disaster in the Ukraine.....giving Putin a reason to invade Ukraine like he did in Georgia.....

 

[Old Rocks]

The whole of the wingnuts stance on the Ukraine is that the President supports the Ukranian people, so our goose stepping wingnuts feel the need to support a corrupt dicatorship. Idiots acting and speaking truly idiotically.

 

[Katzndogz]

They elected a wingnut president! The elections in the Ukraine has nothing to do with us.

It would be too amusing for obama to invade the Ukraine on behalf of the Ukranian people. He is stupid, but not that stupid. Democrats might want to declare war on Russia over this, and they would deserve absolutely everything that came from it.

obama is gesturing. He has no power. There is nothing he can do. So, twist in the wind, fart in tornados, piss in the ocean thinking it will raise the water level. There is no doubt that President Putin is laughing his ass off at obama and his useless talk of "consequences" as if there would really be any consequences.