EU: the European Union, a unified state in the making

Munin

I fully accept that I am not an expert my intention is to get alternative perspectives upon the future of the EU military alliances as EU integration evolves, the impact of these upon the future of NATO within Europe and whether unilateral actions of individual members of NATO who are not European is rising tensions unnecessarily within the EU members. I have my own perspectives, they may be naive but I need to have them challenged to further my own understanding.

If we look to the evolving nature of the EU, it is clear as you indicate, that there is clear evidence centralisation of key areas of decision making in Europe and away from the national parliaments, I believe that ultimately this will include national defense assets. When it comes to defense decision making I believe that ultimately all countries are self interested to this end I believe that the US placement of elements of the anti ICBM shield in countries which border Russia was in the interests of the US and not in the collective interests of the European. This has been suggested by some as being provocative and unnecessarily raising tensions.

Russia has historically posed a major threat however, post cold war, their military resources are underfunded with many assets unusable and no longer fit for purpose. I would suggest that the threat from Russia is not as high upon the European agenda as that of the US and would cite the drawdown of UK standing forces in Germany to support this. 20 Years ago the UK had 4 major airstations; Wildenrath, Bruggen, Laarbruch and Gutersloh which based Tornado and Harrier aircraft specifically to address the Russian threat, today there are no RAF strike aircraft on mainland europe. The drawdown of british army elements continues apace with the british lead Joint Headquarters which has been based at Rhiendahlen since the war downsizing and relocating. I would also suggest that the relocation of the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC), deployed under NATO, EU, coalition or national auspices, from Germany back to the UK would indicate that the collective belief is that no viable threat to continental Europe from Russia.

The invasion of Georgia was indicated as an example of Russian aggressive posturing, this was not a flash in the pan with a long history of tensions between the two countries. There is a historical element to this with Russian troops already based in Georgia "protecting" ethnic russians in the disputed breakaway states, or perhaps Russia needed to show NATO that the fats tracking of Georgia into NATO was a step to far.

The lackluster response to calls for assistance from NATO members fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan from certain European NATO member nations has done little to suggest that the organisation has a future other than its historical cold war focus. In the present financial climate perhaps its time that the US reconsiders the cost of supporting such a large standing force on the European continent in what appears to be a rather one sided relationship.

Just my thoughts.
 
I suspect that ultimately the EU will become the defacto government of Europe.

I also suspect that the nations will become more like the state of the US in that they will have local authority, but their economies will be dominated by the EU.
 
Munin
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The invasion of Georgia was indicated as an example of Russian aggressive posturing, this was not a flash in the pan with a long history of tensions between the two countries. There is a historical element to this with Russian troops already based in Georgia "protecting" ethnic russians in the disputed breakaway states, or perhaps Russia needed to show NATO that the fats tracking of Georgia into NATO was a step to far.

The lackluster response to calls for assistance from NATO members fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan from certain European NATO member nations has done little to suggest that the organisation has a future other than its historical cold war focus. In the present financial climate perhaps its time that the US reconsiders the cost of supporting such a large standing force on the European continent in what appears to be a rather one sided relationship.

Just my thoughts.

Yes it is true that British forces no longer are in Europe, but the American forces still have bases all over Europe that are there for historic reasons and still remain there. Unofficially the americans also have warheads in a number of European nations, one example is Belgium (http://www.motherearth.org/nuke/dossierkb.php) which is officially not seen a nation with nuclear weapons (the UK & France are the only european nations that officially have nuclear weapons List of states with nuclear weapons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). I m sure that other bases in other European countries also have these unofficial nuclear weapons, which probably are a result of the NATO defense cooperation.

About Russia: Ossetians are not ethnic Russians. South Ossetia is a territorial part of Georgia (not Russia), Russia however has been violating the sovereignty of Georgia by deliberately giving away a very big number of Russian passports to South-Ossetian citizens and this probably with the purpose of annexing South Ossetia in the future (something that already has been the reality for several years, South-Ossetia was already annexated by russia although officially it is not). The currency of South Ossetia is the Russian ruble , which then again shows the imperialistic behavior of Russia in this issue. The administrative language in South Ossetia is russian although only 2,1% of South Ossetia are ethnic russians and the vast majority (66.2%) are Ossetians whose language normally is Ossetian.

And the way Russia abuses its gas as a geopolitical weapon also shows that Europe is not completely safe from russia even though Europe is able to defend itself militarily.

What I m worried about is how the Russians will react towards Ukraine, a country that will throw out the Russian fleet when the rent of the Naval base in Ukraine expires (Ukraine has said that it will not prolong the contract and that the Russian fleet has to move elsewhere when that happens). The recent gas conflict has to be seen in a much broader geopolitical context between Russia and Ukraine.

Maybe Russia will show its true face again and try to retake Ukraine by all means possible. It already tried to do that before by using its unofficial weapons (FSB, ...). I suspect that Russia will try to coup Ukraine again, like they tried before by poisoning political opponents:
gross.jpg
 
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True, I should have included inverted commas around the "ethnic russians" which was of course the Russians rational for protecting "their" people.

The Russian reaction to the increasing loss of the gas pipeline monopoly as alternative routs to the export markets from Central Asian Republics come on line will perhaps give more of an indication of their attitudes. For all the saber rattling with regard Poland and the Check Republics move towards the west perhaps the invasion of the much weaker Georgia was intended to be a warning shot across NATOs bows.
 
True, I should have included inverted commas around the "ethnic russians" which was of course the Russians rational for protecting "their" people.

The Russian reaction to the increasing loss of the gas pipeline monopoly as alternative routs to the export markets from Central Asian Republics come on line will perhaps give more of an indication of their attitudes. For all the saber rattling with regard Poland and the Check Republics move towards the west perhaps the invasion of the much weaker Georgia was intended to be a warning shot across NATOs bows.

very good interpretation ;)
 
True, I should have included inverted commas around the "ethnic russians" which was of course the Russians rational for protecting "their" people.

The Russian reaction to the increasing loss of the gas pipeline monopoly as alternative routs to the export markets from Central Asian Republics come on line will perhaps give more of an indication of their attitudes. For all the saber rattling with regard Poland and the Check Republics move towards the west perhaps the invasion of the much weaker Georgia was intended to be a warning shot across NATOs bows.

Very interesting thread. More Americans should become acquainted with the area, and the global chess match going on.

Putin's move was in response to both EU and US. 2.Both Clinton and Bush41 had promised Putin that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet empire, according to George Friedman of Stratfor. But by 1998, NATO had expanded into Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic. By 2004 NATO continued in Central Europe and the Balkans. (Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia) .

Russia will not allow the same with respect to Georgia and Ukraine.

Germany will become the strongest in EU and will dominate same. The US has knuckled under to German wishes in the case of Kosovo, even though Serbia had been a US ally for two wars.

If the US allows Russia the hegemony that it wishes in the Baku region, it could cause problems in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the US has not shown much will in Lebanon, Serbia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Georgia.

So, question. Will we see a modern Molotov-Ribbrentrop pact?
 
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So, question. Will we see a modern Molotov-Ribbrentrop pact?

Interesting question, but I think that is already answered by the politicians themselves when they said that they will allow Ukraine to enter NATO but not right now (putting it on the long run).

Which seems to point out that there is a status quo agreed upon, but still said that Ukraine would be able to join later so they would not loose face. I think that there may have been a temporary unofficial agreement between Russia and NATO (similar to the Molotov-Ribbrentrop pact: a pact that will expire). I also think that Georgia is part of this status quo: the retreat of Russian troops out of Georgia, the NATO ships in the black sea that were part of the political pressure ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/world/europe/28russia.html ) to force this status quo upon Russia and also warn Russia that NATO is still around.
 
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Well, another hurdle is the German "Verfassungsgericht" which is currently considering wether joining the Lissabon treaty is legal in Germany.
Since accepting it would remove their own authority, I am very sceptical that the thing is going to pass without "modifications".
 
The EU is a somewhat complicated subject, here re some short videos that explain it:



name youtube movie: "Definitive History of The European Union, Part 1"
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1pnf20RV8Y[/ame]

name youtube movie: "Definitive History of The European Union, Part 2"
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In5uPbH80bI&feature=related[/ame]

It is however somewhat strange that the US seems to perceive the EU as a hostile movement, like in this news broadcast for example:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B5xgtwu9yw&feature=related[/ame]
 
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This is also a decent video that explains the EU:

"50 Years of EU in the World"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95CuBI-BL4E&feature=PlayList&p=076DFAC291E71024&index=13]YouTube - 50 Years of EU in the World[/ame]
 
The EU is a somewhat complicated subject, here re some short videos that explain it:



name youtube movie: "Definitive History of The European Union, Part 1"
[ame]

name youtube movie: "Definitive History of The European Union, Part 2"
[ame]

It is however somewhat strange that the US seems to perceive the EU as a hostile movement, like in this news broadcast for example:
[ame]


It isn't strange at all, Munin, when you consider what this is all leading up to! It is most definitely a hostile move! Indeed, one could very well say it was an understatement.
 
Aestitically, Norway beeing in is so damn nice. Without Norway, the Skandinavian Lion looks well, not really like a Lion.

Norway isn't in the EU.

EUROPA - Countries
The Lion has always been the beast which represented England. The Bear represents Russia, the eagle wings and man - the USA - the leopard - Germany which will be given dominion in the future over the 10 nation confederacy called the EU - yes, this was all prophesied and we know what comes after it which is why Americans have always been watching for this day and here it is!

Look at the posts from 2009 to where the EU is right now. On the surface it may appear to be imploding with banking crisis - Greece, etc but what is really happening? They are preparing for the emerging of a completely different type of beast. It is even at the door! Amazing some cannot see this! Simply amazing!
 
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eu-member-flags-474.jpg

Thx to ekrem ( Turkish PM leaves stage during debate with Peres over Gaza US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum ) I m making this post about the EU, because many people don't seem to understand what the EU exactly is. Since I have studied a lot about it and because I am a european I m probably able to answer a lot of your questions. And it is possible to create a debate about other Issues with the EU.

The EU right now is what you could describe as a phase between a group of countries and one country. The original purpose was pure economically and to avoid another conflict over resources and raw materials (because of free trade this situation is "solved"), while it was initially not ment to be anything else this became the first step to creating some sort of governing organization that looks like a european country (EU) above a EU-member country.

Some good information about the EU:
European Union - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


Some recent information about the EU development: the EU is now (re)making the constitution of the EU ( Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ), because of some problems in 2005 the EU member state leaders needed to adapt it so it could be accepted by the democratic countries that rejected it in a referendum (each country has to sign it individually).

euro-coin.jpg
They push their European ideology while the whole continent goes downhill. Economic false developments, curruption, islamization, interrupted democratic processes and rising crime are the current "benefits" the EU and the national governments provide us with.
Furthermore, the EU targets the destruction of German companies by forcing them to sell parts of them to foreign investors or shrink themselves.
 

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