EU: the European Union, a unified state in the making

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Munin, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Thx to ekrem ( http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...age-during-debate-with-peres-over-gaza-6.html ) I m making this post about the EU, because many people don't seem to understand what the EU exactly is. Since I have studied a lot about it and because I am a european I m probably able to answer a lot of your questions. And it is possible to create a debate about other Issues with the EU.

    The EU right now is what you could describe as a phase between a group of countries and one country. The original purpose was pure economically and to avoid another conflict over resources and raw materials (because of free trade this situation is "solved"), while it was initially not ment to be anything else this became the first step to creating some sort of governing organization that looks like a european country (EU) above a EU-member country.

    Some good information about the EU:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union


    Some recent information about the EU development: the EU is now (re)making the constitution of the EU ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe ), because of some problems in 2005 the EU member state leaders needed to adapt it so it could be accepted by the democratic countries that rejected it in a referendum (each country has to sign it individually).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  2. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    And you know what the flag of the EU reminds me of?
    [​IMG]
    This old flag:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  3. mightypeon
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    mightypeon Active Member

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    Aestitically, Norway beeing in is so damn nice. Without Norway, the Skandinavian Lion looks well, not really like a Lion.
     
  4. WilliamC
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    WilliamC Rookie

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    Munin

    Do you see the EUs plans to further expand their military alliances as being a threat to NATO and a sign of Europe beginning to distance its self from the American Empire?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  5. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    I don't see the EU as a pure military alliance, in its first purpose it was pure economically (a trade agreement) then justice got involved in it and then we got a unified coin, ... the military aspect only has just recently began to develop. It would be like saying that the US is a pure military alliance of states, in a way the EU and the US are becoming very similar to each other. But the EU is still advancing into the what the US is today.

    Another thing is that all EU countries are members of NATO, so it is not like it is a new alliance. It is more an new "country" that is developing, this country will also be part of NATO. NATO will still be important, it will only be between less countries (Because the EU that will be a member will only be 1 country).

    It is not because EU countries are working closer together that the EU will be working less close together with the US. You could see it as a new country (that exists out of former separated countries) that will (re)join NATO.


    One reason for this development is that the member states don't have much individual power anymore, if for example France wants to have something done in the international scene then it is like a david vs goliath job to get huge powers like the US & Russia to act: for example the green-energy project that the EU has been working on for years, trying to promote more solar and wind power and trying to change the world into something less polluting.

    In the future EU will probably become somewhat identical to the US as a country, the EU will be a bigger voice on the international scene and the small countries won't be abused by their small geopolitical status when they are up against countries like Russia (a country that has been using the division of European countries in its advantage: divide and rule => the strongest one makes the rules).

    So in short: it is a development that can be seen as coincidental nation-building (initially that was not the goal), not a new alliance that is being made to replace an old one. The closest thing you can compare it with is a new country that rejoins (the countries were already part of those alliances) all existing alliances. That is why I made the comparison with the old american flag, it is a similar process (one that the US already has gone through). But in another way it is not :Each European country has its own language, its own national culture, its own long history as a nation, ... .






    ( This text below here is the most important part of my answer, so if you d want to skip the previous part of it ... )

    I ll try to compare it with something the US could do: You have NAFTA (something very similar to the first agreement that evolved further into what is today called the EU) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement . Imagine that NAFTA would be upgraded: that Mexico, the US and Canada all have the same currency, have open borders (no border control: you can just walk over the border while and won't notice that it was there because you don't have to stop there for a passport check or something else) and that their came a bigger "government" & "parliament" that represented all tree countries, this process evolves further and further: that big democratically elected government that is able to make laws that each of the 3 countries have to abide by make the new Federal laws, the countries themselves give away the agriculture department to this big government and the federal government kept giving power of itself away to this big government. US, canadian and mexican politicians are all represented in that one big government and it keeps getting more power from the 3 countries that are in it.

    But it is hard to imagine that this could happen because of the huge immigration problems that the US already has with mexico, but I could see it happening with canada. That (Mexico & mass immigration) is the same reason why the EU will probably not let Turkey join the EU: we have to big immigration problems with Turkey (f.e. 3% of Germany are Turks).
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  6. cunclusion
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    cunclusion Member

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    It is an interesting hypothesis of the situation in Europe. It looks like the economic issues around the world might actually push this plan into action sooner or cause a major breakdown. This is mostly due to the debt of certain countries in Europe. The main focus was Spain, Italy and Eastern European countries during the downturn would run into a rule in place that states they cannot exceed a debt to GDP ratio dont remember off the top of my head but I think that was one of the rules Germany wanted in place.
     
  7. WilliamC
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    WilliamC Rookie

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    Munin,

    I agree that the EU, which evolved from the European economic Community (EEC), was not intended to be purely a military alliance, out of interest the Western European Union (WEU) military concept date back to 1948 Western European Union - Union de l'Europe Occidentale[/url]) an year before NATO came to the table thus predates NATO the EEC and EU. The aims stated by the WEU were: "to afford assistance to each other in resisting any policy of aggression" "to promote unity and to encourage the progressive integration of Europe".

    However I feel that NATOs continued expansion to include accelerated membership for former members of the Soviet Block, is unsettling the status quo in Europe with the placement of elements of the US "defensive" missile shield in Poland and the Check Republic turning the heat up on Russia, I can see some similarities with the Cuban missile crisis.

    The agreement to allow NATO aircraft to fly through Ukrainian airspace may well have contributed to Russia engineering the recent gas crises in that country which cascaded across Europe. Although Russia has used this tool historically for other purposes.

    I would also propose that the lack of appetite amongst certain European elements of NATO to fully support those nations which have actively engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan may suggest that the historical one for all all for one concept with the all following the one is no longer the case. NATO evolved into an organization intended to face down the Russian bear, a role it has fulfilled, it may however have run its course and in Europe may indeed be relegated, if it survives, to second fiddle to the WEU as the EU evolves, as you suggest into an integrated nation like alliance.
     
  8. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    William,

    I don't know exactly what you re saying now, A nation can not make an alliance of its own. I simply can't see that the EU has something to do with being a military project although it now has a very big military project, as I stated in my previous "that was not the initial idea": now this of course changed, we have a European government a european parliament, a European justice system, European banks, ... we re not so far of from being a Nation.

    The idea of the (WEU), the military concept that dates back to 1948 is an idea of separated nations forming a military alliance. The EU military concept however is one of 1 "nation" with 1 military, 1 government, 1 parliament, 1 currency, ... It will also be cheaper if the EU has a military because borders that have to be defended will be much much smaller. I don't think the WEU concept is comparable with this EU-military concept.

    About NATO, I think you re not completely right. It is true that the Russian bear is weaker now, but this world is still not as peaceful as you think that it is. The Russia-Georgia conflict has shown us that Russia is not an international partner or an "ally", that Russia still acts on its own and still is an authoritarian state. Even the Chinese, with all their peaceful intentions can become a threat in the future. The chinese may be peaceful people, but their leaders certainly are not (this was shown by the violent oppression of the tibet protests right before the olympic games). Also China says it will declare war on Taiwan if it ever would declare independence (which shows the imperialistic nature of this Chinese government). I have already made a thread that questions this and gives enough arguments that favor the idea that China may be a serious threat to the West in the future ( http://www.usmessageboard.com/military/65406-what-is-china-up-to.html ). Also remember that China is the 3rd biggest economy in the world (China passes Germany in economic rankings - CNN.com).
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
  9. Modbert
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    Modbert Daydream Believer Supporting Member

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    The EU will be the first of most likely three super states made.

    Expect to see a NAU (North American Union) and a AU (Asia Union) follow if this succeeds. I don't like the sound of that at all, so much power in so few hands.
     
  10. Munin
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    Munin VIP Member

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    I don't see africans agreeing upon that (to many African Nations are still waging war against each other), neither do I see Chinese communists and a Japanese democracy / Indian democracy go well together.

    The only other Nations that I do see capable of doing something like that is the merging of the USA and Canada into 1 superstate.

    The other thing is that is good for the US too, because the US will have a stronger ally that almost has exactly the same ideology.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009

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