Equality for All!!!

[Oddball]

we do need more doctors and nurses and hospitals to be more competitive, and to handle the boomer implosion!

maybe the ama needs to lower their standards or reduce the cost of schooling for docs so more with smarts could enter in to the field?

How would turning every doctor into a defacto bureaucrat make them want to go through the decade plus it takes to become an MD??

You've heard that Canada has been hemorrhaging doctors and nurses to America, haven't you??

 

[Navy1960]

Home Page : Bureau of Insurance

Try there Care I don't know if that will help your situation, but its a start.

 

[Care4all]

we do need more doctors and nurses and hospitals to be more competitive, and to handle the boomer implosion!

maybe the ama needs to lower their standards or reduce the cost of schooling for docs so more with smarts could enter in to the field?

How would turning every doctor into a defacto bureaucrat make them want to go through the decade plus it takes to become an MD??

You've heard that Canada has been hemorrhaging doctors and nurses to America, haven't you??

we are the last nation left for them to run to that doesn't have a form of socialized medicine, if that changes they may all go home and end up helping their own countries get repopulated with doctors?

I wouldn't shun so quickly, making medical schools more affordable and abundant.

There is a huge influx of patients on the horizon and the supply of them, of Doctors, is limited, prices will sky rocket without a greater supply to meet the demand.... we can figure this out and do what needs to be done....

care

 

[Oddball]

we are the last nation left for them to run to that doesn't have a form of socialized medicine, if that changes they may all go home and end up helping their own countries get repopulated with doctors?

That oughtta tell you something.

If they go back to where they came from, what's to guarantee that they'd continue in medicine??

I wouldn't shun so quickly, making medical schools more affordable and abundant.

There is a huge influx of patients on the horizon and the supply of them, of Doctors, is limited, prices will sky rocket without a greater supply to meet the demand.... we can figure this out and do what needs to be done....

care

Name the last....no, the FIRST time any monopoly, let alone one run buy gubmint, made anything more affordable and abundant.

Take your time on that one.

 

[Care4all]

we are the last nation left for them to run to that doesn't have a form of socialized medicine, if that changes they may all go home and end up helping their own countries get repopulated with doctors?

That oughtta tell you something.

If they go back to where they came from, what's to guarantee that they'd continue in medicine??

I wouldn't shun so quickly, making medical schools more affordable and abundant.

There is a huge influx of patients on the horizon and the supply of them, of Doctors, is limited, prices will sky rocket without a greater supply to meet the demand.... we can figure this out and do what needs to be done....

care

Name the last....no, the FIRST time any monopoly, let alone one run buy gubmint, made anything more affordable and abundant.

Take your time on that one.

monopolies, duopolies etc are already illegal in this country, no? i don't know if i am necessarily saying that the only way we can dump the insurance companies, the middle man, is by having a government run, single payer plan....i am not ruling it out, but surely there are other ways to go about this whole approach that should be considered as a viable option?

 

[NO!bama08]

.....and now your "president" is perfectly willing to cut back on weapon systems and the military in general that keep our country safe from idiots like Kim Mentally Ill in order to pay for healthcare for illegal aliens and others who sit on their ass and make babies all day.

 

[Oddball]

monopolies, duopolies etc are already illegal in this country, no? i don't know if i am necessarily saying that the only way we can dump the insurance companies, the middle man, is by having a government run, single payer plan....i am not ruling it out, but surely there are other ways to go about this whole approach that should be considered as a viable option?

The entity that has the monopoly on the proactive use of physical force, that being gubmint, is alive and well.

Do you really want a monopolist picking and choosing which medical services you will receive, and how much, if any??

 

[Cecilie1200]

Equality for All
In 1917, like everything else, medical services were nationalized by the new socialist government. Gradually, small medical practices disappeared and a network of big, factory-like hospitals and out-patient clinics were established all around the country. Everyone was registered in both out-patient clinics and hospitals according to their government-assigned residence. Patient choice was completely taken away by the Soviet State, which took full responsibility for centrally planning each individual’s medical expenses and health care.

With the elimination of private expenditures for health services, the form and amount of medical care were now dependent upon the budgetary priorities of the State. All members of the medical industry were put on low fixed monthly salaries and were mandated to examine and treat an overwhelming daily quota of patients. Medical research became dependent upon inadequate annual budgetary allocations from the government. Doctors’ and nurses’ incomes no longer depended on their professional skills or the number of patients they treated. Total unionization of the medical profession made it practically impossible for anyone to be fired. Without markets and prices determining the value and availability of health care, the government imposed a rationing system for medical services and pharmaceutical products.

Specialized services (mammograms, ultrasounds, and so forth) were available only in a few select hospitals where the doctors were supposed to treat patients as well as participate in research. For example, in the case of brain or cardiovascular surgery and treatment, there were only a few specialized hospitals available in the entire country. People sometimes died waiting in line to be admitted for these treatments.

Socialized Health Care: The Communist Dream and the Soviet Reality | Foundation for Economic Education

The problems here should be self evident, if this is the utopia that you are seeking with "Universal Healthcare" then this is what you are going to get. All statistics from the W.H.O. aside, when you look at Canda, the U.K. and several other countries with socialized medicine they all have one common theme. That theme is more coverage less service. So if the goal here is to have a medical system that provides poor quality medical care at the expense of covering everyone then that is what it will achieve.

Of course. Why would you look at statistics when you could just make pronouncements about things with no evidence backing it up?

No evidence to back it up? Hello?! The documented history of the former Soviet Union is "no evidence", while we're supposed to endorse WHO statistics (which measure healthcare specifically on whether or not socialism is evenly distributed) as though they're holy gospel carved by the finger of God? Tell me, do the lobotomy scars itch at all?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Funny...none of those provide comparisons.

By the way...even with a "financial crisis", NHS is still significantly cheaper than US healthcare.

For some comparisons...

A systematic review of studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the United States | Guyatt | Array

Interpretation: Available studies suggest that health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent.

Hmm...and lets compare government run healthcare (which isn't even being considered), which is basically VA care, as compared to regular US care.

Well here...read all about it yourself.
"The Best Care Anywhere" by Phillip Longman

Oh, goody. It's cheaper. Just what we were all dying for: bargain-basement, generic, store-brand healthcare. I know when I'M shopping for a surgeon, I always go with the lowest price from the guy who graduated Guatemala Tech, instead of the more expensive doctor who graduated Harvard Med.

Be penurious with YOUR health, all right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

When I see my medicare and medicaid clients getting the same quality of healthcare as those who have private insurance coverage, then I'll buy into the whole ridiculous lie about nationalized health care being somehow better.

The government should NOT be involved in our medical care. They shouldn't be involved in our treatment, they shouldn't be overseeing the medical professionals in any but the most standard sense. They certainly shouldn't have control over our treatment...and that's where this is going.

I liked how Nik pissed and moaned about unsubstantiated "pronouncements", and then produced a whopper of one in the form of "government health care will be better quality". I want to see conclusive proof of THAT assertion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Our healthcare issues are a direct response to our insistence that people do NOT have to be responsible for themselves. When we started peddling that b.s., we started having health care problems.

My clients come to me when they're 60 years old, haven't worked enough in their entire lives to build up ANY social security benefits, and now they need dental care...and somehow it's MY RESPONSIBILITY to make sure they get it.

You know what? It's not my responsibility. People need to be taught from the fucking cradle that they are responsible for themfuckingselves. Otherwise, you'll be 60 years old, no income, been lazing around all your life...and suddenly you honestly CAN'T work, and sorry, there's no net there for you...no magic cure.

We are Americans. Americans have traditionally been independent and hard working. Until the left started telling us that was "bad" and "wrong" and everyone is entitled to free food, free shelter, free medical care...why bother working? It's the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to take care of you....

What complete crap. It ISN'T the government's job to hold your hand through life. If you can't afford health care, I recommend you get off your fucking ass and come up with a plan. Teach your kids that they are responsible for themselves, and they need to start YOUNG in order to make sure that when a rainy day comes, they are safe.

It's not fucking rocket science.

Well it sure is a great thing that all those people who worked hard, and had medical insurance didn't have to file bankruptcy for medical reasons....

Or, you know...not...

Out-of-pocket medical costs averaged $17,943 for all medically bankrupt families: $26,971 for uninsured patients; $17,749 for those with private insurance at the outset; $14,633 for those with Medicaid; $12,021 for those with Medicare; and $6,545 for those with VA/military coverage. For patients who initially had private coverage but lost it, the family's out-of-pocket expenses averaged $22,568.

http://www.amjmed.com/webfiles/images/journals/ajm/AJMMedicalBankruptcyJun09FINAL2.pdf

$18,000 for people with private insurance...could you handle $18,000 worth of bills to save your life right now?

So instead of merely providing some sort of community safety net - which doesn't have to be government-run, whatever you think - for those who do hit catastrophes, you want to provide a government-run safety hammock for everyone to lounge in because there's a small possibility that they MIGHT have a catastrophe someday.

I love that "don't even try because it might go wrong" attitude. Very positive, very uplifting. Don't quit your day job to become a motivational speaker, okay?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The problem of rasing HC costs will not be solved by changing the system OR by keeping it the same, either

The problem of unaffordable HC for most Americans is going to get worse if we do nothing, and it will get worse if we try single payer too.

Either we force the HC industry to expect less money for their services (and we all know how badly those plans work) or we accept that the demograohics are going to make things get worse for most of us.

We can make healthcare companies expect less money for their "services" and I'm pretty sure things will be fine. Their services mostly consist of charging vast amounts for insurance and hiring hordes of people to find loopholes to deny claims, both things we can do without.

Dear God. "Make" them. That just says it all right there.

And no, their services do NOT "mostly consist of charging vast amounts". You sound like the high school drop outs who get a job at McDonald's and think they're the ones earning all the money for their bosses. That attitude reveals nothing except that you're one of the "hired hordes" who's never had the firsthand chance to learn what bosses actually do.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Underfunded means they can't raise taxes fast enough to pay for them.

Because people were lied to about it the real cost.

Take note of that.

I find it hilarious that Nik likes to tout these systems on one hand for being "so much cheaper" than the US's, and then calls them "underfunded" on the other hand. Gee, so if they were "properly funded", wouldn't that mean they'd cost a lot more than they do now? Is it at all possible that if they were "properly funded" and providing services as good as the US's, they might also cost as much per capita? Y'think?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The drones' tunnel vision is that "someone" has to do "something" and that "someone" is only government.

Well, as long as the "someone" who has to do "something" about their screwed-up lives is the government, it isn't THEM.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Market forces have had nothing to do with the direction of health care costs in the past 10 years.

Except Lasik. Has it gotten cheaper or more expensive?

Don't forget plastic surgery and hair transplants.

And bariatric surgery, which is only covered by some health insurances, and frequently requires you to go to a surgeon you don't want to use or to pay for it yourself.

 

[Cecilie1200]

so what do you suggest are the messures that need to be taken to truly address the outrageous amounts of money we spend on healthcare and why do you think your messures will trally work?

i am not set on any one solution or one means to address our problems...but i know, with every ounce of intelligence God gave me, that we do have major problems that have to be addressed and can;t be ignored.

care

"Outrageous amounts of money" by whose definition??

If the competitive pricing and subsequently falling costs of cash-and-carry procedures like Lasik, plastic surgery, and hair transplants aren't proof enough of how returning medical services to a truly free market model will work, what evidence would you accept??

I'm with you on that. I want to know when it became received wisdom that a lot of money spent on healthcare was automatically a bad thing. From the standpoint of the economy, it sure isn't.

But really, people always hear "healthcare" and automatically think about things like vaccinations and emergency care and treatment for chronic conditions like diabetes. They never consider that that total amount spent on healthcare in the United States every year is made up quite significantly of discretionary spending.

The US population is aging, and despite all the media horror stories of old people having to eat dog food to afford medication (yeah, like dog food is so frigging cheap), the vast majority of our nation's wealth is in the hands of senior and near-senior citizens. And old people like to spend their money on health care. They buy vitamins, and they pay for diagnostic screening tests, and they do any number of other things in order to remain healthier and more active later and later in life. And that's hardly a bad thing any way you look at it.

It also isn't just old people. Whether the left likes it or not, health care is a luxury item as much as it is an essential, in the same way that food can be bare subsistence to stay alive or gourmet five-star dining. The wealthier and more prosperous the population is, the more discretionary income it has, the more secure it feels financially, the more money it is going to spend on health care. By this token, "outrageous" sums spent on health care in the US is a GOOD thing, not a bad one.

 

[Cecilie1200]

i don't think one procedure or the cosmetic industry of health care can compare with the nonelective, health side of it....

cosmetic, elective surgeries allows the free market to work because there is no need or necessity to it or time barriers.

you have time to shop around, businesses become more competitive to get your business...

when your arm is cut off by a tractor, or you have a heart attack, or you have cancer...there is not time to call and price things to see what doc or hospital to use....

Things at the 7-11 cost more than what you can get at the grocery store....Airline tickets bought at the last minute cost more than those reserved weeks in advance...So, what else is new??

Life's tough, shit happens, wear a helmet.

And like all of those things, a smart, mature person does their health care shopping BEFORE they need the items, rather than waiting until the need is at the crisis stage. I don't wait to choose a doctor until I've already got cancer. I found him and established a relationship with him now, while I'm in good health and have time to do so carefully.

health care choices is not deciding what shoes to buy and whom to buy them from and for what outfit to where them with....ones health is not a proverbial widget bought and sold in capitalism imo...it just doesn't fit the pure capitalistic mold, how could it?

Says who??

They always use this argument, as though necessity and importance somehow negate economics and take something out of the realm of "commodity". The truth is that the only things that aren't commodities are things that no one wants for any reason, like dog vomit, or things that exist in such abundance and availability that everyone can have as much as they want whenever they want, like air. "Commodity" does not mean "luxury" or "non-essential", whatever leftists think. The most profitable and stable businesses to be in traditionally are those that provide things that people will always need, like food or housing or utilities. Social studies teaches us that the three main needs of mankind are food, clothing, and shelter. So if the importance and urgent necessity of these does not preclude them from being commodities, why should health care be different?

i am not against capitalism, i made my living in that arena, the corporate end of it and i just don't think dealing with ones health care is done in the same manner or under the same conditions as every day shopping.

care

Your limiting beliefs are your problem.

Nicer than the answer I would have given.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You must eat every day. Does capitalism not work for that? Do a handful of poor people justify a government take over of the entire food industry?

We should stop giving them ideas.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Shelter is expensive, and it's not elective. Does this justify the government making decisions on every house everyone lives in? Or just the few people who can't afford housing?

It justifies them offering public housing...which oh hey, they already do.

So why can't they offer public healthcare?

Comparable to the public housing they offer? They already do. It's called "Medicaid". What YOU want is comparable to them taking possession of every house and apartment in America and then assigning them to people based on some bureaucrat's concept of what they "need".

Oh dear GOD, I've got to stop giving you people ideas.

 

[Care4all]

monopolies, duopolies etc are already illegal in this country, no? i don't know if i am necessarily saying that the only way we can dump the insurance companies, the middle man, is by having a government run, single payer plan....i am not ruling it out, but surely there are other ways to go about this whole approach that should be considered as a viable option?

The entity that has the monopoly on the proactive use of physical force, that being gubmint, is alive and well.

Do you really want a monopolist picking and choosing which medical services you will receive, and how much, if any??

I already do....i have the one insurance policy that matt's work offers, that most certainly tells me what i can do and what they will pay for it, if anything at all, and whom has to administer it to me....

yeah, my choices are fabulous in the Private sector...NOT!