Enriching conversation versus "debate"

[Dhara]

One of the down sides of "debate" is the idea that one has to "bring someone over to their way of thinking."

We do this when we talk about religion.

What if we simply listen to others, know what we know, ask questions to clarify what another person knows and otherwise keep silent?

 

[Toro]

Because I want to win!

 

[Dhara]

OK, go play a game then.

 

[Agit8r]

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, when I was stationed on my last ship for my career, it was well known that I wasn't religious in the slightest way, so as a test, they bunked me with the ship's chaplain, who was an evangelical minister.

The first day, I told Arthur that they were taking bets on when we would separate as bunkmates, and for him to bet on his transfer date. I told him that I had no problem with religious people, just those who tried to convert me. I then said that if we were to discuss religion or spiritual matters, I would respect his beliefs as long as he respected mine, and we could talk about it any time.

Know what happened? We were best friends for the time he was onboard, and had many discussions about faith, religion and belief. And, because we'd set ground rules before we started talking about them, we ended up having really enlightening conversations. He taught me things about religion that I didn't know, and I was able to help him understand some spiritual things that he was unaware of (I am a Taoist).

Not having to "win" at a conversation can many times be more enlightening than ones where you think you have to win. Sometimes it's good to have your beliefs and morals challenged so that you can look a bit closer at them to see if they still work.

What worked for me at 16 didn't work as well when I was 30, so I adjusted my views of the world and life got better.

 

[westwall]

One of the down sides of "debate" is the idea that one has to "bring someone over to their way of thinking."

We do this when we talk about religion.

What if we simply listen to others, know what we know, ask questions to clarify what another person knows and otherwise keep silent?

Ummm, That IS the nature of a "debate". If you are merely discussing things in an informational way, don't refer to it as a debate.

 

[Dhara]

One of the down sides of "debate" is the idea that one has to "bring someone over to their way of thinking."

We do this when we talk about religion.

What if we simply listen to others, know what we know, ask questions to clarify what another person knows and otherwise keep silent?

Ummm, That IS the nature of a "debate". If you are merely discussing things in an informational way, don't refer to it as a debate.

So, is this place debate only, or conversation and debate? I'm waxing philosophical these last couple of days.

 

[Dhara]

I'm thinking of how much suffering would be saved by religious and atheist if they held to their own and didn't feel the need to win the other person over.

 

[Toro]

OK, go play a game then.

Isn't all this a game?

 

[Dhara]

OK, go play a game then.

Isn't all this a game?

All what?

 

[there4eyeM]

Someone might say that those how know, don't speak. Those that speak, don't know.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I'm thinking of how much suffering would be saved by religious and atheist if they held to their own and didn't feel the need to win the other person over.

My post (number 5), shows you what happens when 2 people decide to have an intelligent discussion from differing belief systems, and neither one feels the need to "win" the other one over to their beliefs.

You end up learning more when you allow both sides to show what they know.

 

[Dhara]

Someone might say that those how know, don't speak. Those that speak, don't know.

I'm thinking of how people may converse about religion without it becoming an argument.

 

[there4eyeM]

As long as the parties understand the above, conversation is benign.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Whenever someone comes up to me in public, or when they knock on my door, and they want to talk to me about religion, I tell them that I'm a Taoist, but will listen to them if they don't try to convert me, and I promise to not to shake their beliefs.

I've actually had some pretty decent conversations with people who show up to my door to spread the good news, and as long as we both understood and abided by the rules, we'd both learn something.

 

[there4eyeM]

Similar experiences here.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm thinking of how much suffering would be saved by religious and atheist if they held to their own and didn't feel the need to win the other person over.

I see it somewhat differently. I don't see it so much as people trying to win others over, as wanting to be understood. Former Catholics don't necessarily want everyone else to become a former Catholic, too, they want people to understand their decision and know why there decision is legitimate. The person of faith would like the atheist to know and understand why keeping the faith is just as valid as giving it up.

The people I can't quite figure out are people of one denomination or faith presenting statements I'm almost sure they know to be false about another denomination/faith. If one has enough interest to look up the beliefs of someone else, why not look up the true beliefs and then discuss actual disagreements?

 

[Dhara]

I'm thinking of how much suffering would be saved by religious and atheist if they held to their own and didn't feel the need to win the other person over.

I see it somewhat differently. I don't see it so much as people trying to win others over, as wanting to be understood. Former Catholics don't necessarily want everyone else to become a former Catholic, too, they want people to understand their decision and know why there decision is legitimate. The person of faith would like the atheist to know and understand why keeping the faith is just as valid as giving it up.

The people I can't quite figure out are people of one denomination or faith presenting statements I'm almost sure they know to be false about another denomination/faith. If one has enough interest to look up the beliefs of someone else, why not look up the true beliefs and then discuss actual disagreements?

Right. We want to understand a person's choices and to know why their decision is legitimate.

That's rare on the Religion forum, to be honest.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I'm thinking of how much suffering would be saved by religious and atheist if they held to their own and didn't feel the need to win the other person over.

I see it somewhat differently. I don't see it so much as people trying to win others over, as wanting to be understood. Former Catholics don't necessarily want everyone else to become a former Catholic, too, they want people to understand their decision and know why there decision is legitimate. The person of faith would like the atheist to know and understand why keeping the faith is just as valid as giving it up.

The people I can't quite figure out are people of one denomination or faith presenting statements I'm almost sure they know to be false about another denomination/faith. If one has enough interest to look up the beliefs of someone else, why not look up the true beliefs and then discuss actual disagreements?

Right. We want to understand a person's choices and to know why their decision is legitimate.

That's rare on the Religion forum, to be honest.

You can't place a qualifier like "legitimate" when it comes to asking someone about their faith or lack of it. The only person who can determine the "legitimacy" of their beliefs is that person themselves.

 

[westwall]

One of the down sides of "debate" is the idea that one has to "bring someone over to their way of thinking."

We do this when we talk about religion.

What if we simply listen to others, know what we know, ask questions to clarify what another person knows and otherwise keep silent?

Ummm, That IS the nature of a "debate". If you are merely discussing things in an informational way, don't refer to it as a debate.

So, is this place debate only, or conversation and debate? I'm waxing philosophical these last couple of days.

No, it's both. You simply have to specify what your objective is from the beginning.