Does the Koran preach intolerance & hate?

[ekrem]

(...) who follow man made revelations known as hadiths (...)

The Hadiths were compiled 200 years after the Prophet. Not all of the Hadiths can be prooved as factual statements by the prophet. Some Hadiths are attributed to the Prophet so certain goals could be achieved on contemporary society of that time those dubious parts of Hadiths were written.
Another problem is that some true statements from the Prophet that have found their way into Hadiths had its root in the problems of the general conditions in those times the Prophet lived in.
In the Hadiths it is said, that a woman should not travel without a man longer then 3 days on her own. But the Prophet also said, that he wishes the times to come where a woman can safely travel long distances by herself.
In those times without industrial-transformation of landscape it was just not considered to be safe for a woman to travel through the land-scape with all those wolves and other animals around, also in those times there was no area-wide security forces like Police. Today there is area-wide security for a woman to travel. So the Hadith of that time has become obsolete in theory.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Koran confirms the Gospel but attacks the Trinity. The Trinity was introduced three centuries after Jesus. It has no basis in the Gospel and contradicts it.

You will not find anything in the Koran to contradict what I stated. The Sects believe these verses about freedom were ABROGATED by verse 9-29. But to show that they had to rely on sources OUTSIDE the Koran. Sources that secular historians deemed unreliable and too sectarian to trust. After all Sunnis have conflicting oral traditions than Shias do with each accusing the other of lies and fabrication. Yet they have the same Koran.

But in recent years, probably after 9-11, these oral sources found new audience in the West. Probably because its easier to attack Islam from them than the Koran.

Wanna bet I cannot contradict it?

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

Another person that thinks they know what I think, I love it. Where did I say anything about the Trinity? What I said was that, compared to the Quran, the Bible is well plotted and contains only minor errors. Anyone that has ever had to deal with a tech manual knows that they are almost always full of errors, and make statements that contradict reality, not to mention itself.

Regardless, the Quran is worse.

When you quote the Koran you must quote it the verses in its entirety or else you are trying to change its meaning for an agenda.

So you quoted verse 2.191, but only partially. Why is that?

Lets see what it ACTUALLY SAYS:

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

The Quran also says:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

It also tells us:

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

It also clarifies further by stating:

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, �Our Lord is God.� 22:39-40

It is crystal clear that the Koran is talking about fighting when you are forced to fight because of your religious believes. Muhammad was seen by the Arab pagans as an apostate you defied the traditions of his people, tribe and family. He was seen as a denouncer of the gods of Mecca. We are given in the Koran many such scenarios that tells us about the tribalistic attitude of the semitic peoples who saw religion as a national identity to be followed by every member and who denounces that as a traitor to hiw own people.

We are told:

19.44-47. "O my father! serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against God Most Gracious. "O my father! I fear lest a Penalty afflict thee from God Most Gracious, so that thou become to Satan a friend." (The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee: Now get away from me for a good long while!". Abraham said: "Peace be on thee: I will pray to my Lord for thy forgiveness: for He is to me Most Gracious.

Also concerning the prophets we are told:

36.16. They said: "Our Lord doth know that we have been sent on a mission to you: "And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message." The (people) said: "for us, we augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you. And a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us."

We are told concerning Moses and the Pharoah:

26.27-29. (Pharaoh) said: "Truly your apostle who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!" (Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!" (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"

26.45-49. Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake! Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration, Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds, "The Lord of Moses and Aaron." Said (Pharaoh): "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! but soon shall ye know! Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"

Also concerning Noah and his people we are told:

26.115-116 "I am sent only to warn plainly in public." They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned (to death)."

We also have the story of Jesus and the Pharisees in the Gospel. So there is an attitude that prevailed in semitic cultures. Where religion was seen as an identity, a national identity.

When people entered Islam in large numbers they brought that attitude with them. Failing to find it in the Koran they came up with hadiths to justify it. They saw that as something normal. The reality is Muhammad's followers were a few, the minority. He was forced into exile after persecution. When they saw him still continuing preaching they decided to kill him. Before that they tried to struck a bargain with him.

We are told about such bargains:

10.15-16. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)." Say: "If Allah had so willed, I should not have rehearsed it to you, nor would He have made it known to you. A whole life-time before this have I tarried amongst you: will ye not then understand?"

Another words, bring us ANOTHER KORAN. Another revelation. Another Islam.

You know, Sunni and Shia and Ahmedi and so on. You know, hadith, fiqh, sira and sufism and so on. You know.

Koran is peace!

The Koran is not fit to be used as toilet paper, it should only be used to line pigpens.

I do not have to follow your arbitrary rules for quoting the Qur'an because they do not apply to me. If you do not like what the Qur'an actually says, that is your problem, not mine.

 

[Kalam]

The Koran is not fit to be used as toilet paper, it should only be used to line pigpens.

I think we can both agree that this kind of nonsense isn't conducive to intelligent discussion.

 

[uptownlivin90]

The problem with the Quran is that it is so disjointed and contradictory that anyone can pull any message they want out of it. In comparison, the Bible reads like a technical manual.

The Koran confirms the Gospel but attacks the Trinity. The Trinity was introduced three centuries after Jesus. It has no basis in the Gospel and contradicts it.

You will not find anything in the Koran to contradict what I stated. The Sects believe these verses about freedom were ABROGATED by verse 9-29. But to show that they had to rely on sources OUTSIDE the Koran. Sources that secular historians deemed unreliable and too sectarian to trust. After all Sunnis have conflicting oral traditions than Shias do with each accusing the other of lies and fabrication. Yet they have the same Koran.

But in recent years, probably after 9-11, these oral sources found new audience in the West. Probably because its easier to attack Islam from them than the Koran.

I don't believe in the trinity.

I also don't believe in the Quran or Allah.

Yeshua/Jesus never taught of a coming Quran. Islam to me is a heretical and false religion.


As for peaceful: I don't think any religion of man is peaceful (Islam is no different), but I believe in their right to believe what they want. If you commit a crime THEN I have a problem.

As for tolerant: I don't tolerate many things faith-wise. I believe homosexuality is a sex and twisted down right demonic phenomenon, adultery is a sin, divorce and remarriage is a sin... etc. Some things I don't think God tolerates, but I understand the difference between secular government and my faith.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Koran is not fit to be used as toilet paper, it should only be used to line pigpens.

I think we can both agree that this kind of nonsense isn't conducive to intelligent discussion.

Neither is his claim that the Qur'an is about peace, yet I do not see you attempting to educate him.

By the way, I can say the same about the Bible, that is because, unlike you, I do not need to defend the Bible or God. My God is strong enough to defend Himself, and has no need of people to get offended and protect Him from people. Maybe if Allah were a bit more capable he could stand up for himself also. I don't really expect that from a God that did not even dominate the culture of the city of Mecca though, so I understand your need to defend him yourself.

 

[Mini 14]

The koran is about as significant as all the animals who believe it.

"Beowulf" is more a religious epic than that rag.

 

[Zona]

Lately, I have been asking if the Bible taught tolerance..actually I know it does, but I hate when people hide behind it with horrible acts.

(Wait for the mosque burning, its coming.) We are back in brumingham in the 60's again.

 

[Zona]

The koran is about as significant as all the animals who believe it.

"Beowulf" is more a religious epic than that rag.

Some say the same thing about the mormon bible....

 

[Mini 14]

And some say the same thing about the Bible.

Its a personal opinion....ALL of it.

And in my opinion, there will never be a muslim in heaven. Plenty of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormans, you name it.......

but not a single muslim.

Ever.

One day, we'll all know the truth.

 

[Zona]

And some say the same thing about the Bible.

Its a personal opinion....ALL of it.

And in my opinion, there will never be a muslim in heaven. Plenty of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormans, you name it.......

but not a single muslim.

Ever.

One day, we'll all know the truth.

So what kind of religion do you follow that says muslims wont get in heaven? YOur religion says budists, jews and MORMONS will get into heaven, but muslims wont.. Seriously, what religion did you pervert into your way of thinking?

I work with a bosnian muslim..BOSNIAN...what does she have to with 9/11 and extremists?





Wow.

 

[Mini 14]

So what kind of religion do you follow that says muslims wont get in heaven? Seriously, what religion did you pervert into your way of thinking?

I work with a bosnian muslim..BOSNIAN...what does she have to with 9/11 and extremists?





Wow.

Voodoo

 

[Kalam]

The Koran is not fit to be used as toilet paper, it should only be used to line pigpens.

I think we can both agree that this kind of nonsense isn't conducive to intelligent discussion.

Neither is his claim that the Qur'an is about peace, yet I do not see you attempting to educate him.

By the way, I can say the same about the Bible, that is because, unlike you, I do not need to defend the Bible or God. My God is strong enough to defend Himself, and has no need of people to get offended and protect Him from people. Maybe if Allah were a bit more capable he could stand up for himself also. I don't really expect that from a God that did not even dominate the culture of the city of Mecca though, so I understand your need to defend him yourself.

Need a tissue?

 

[onecut39]

The problem with the Quran is that it is so disjointed and contradictory that anyone can pull any message they want out of it. In comparison, the Bible reads like a technical manual.

The Koran confirms the Gospel but attacks the Trinity. The Trinity was introduced three centuries after Jesus. It has no basis in the Gospel and contradicts it.

You will not find anything in the Koran to contradict what I stated. The Sects believe these verses about freedom were ABROGATED by verse 9-29. But to show that they had to rely on sources OUTSIDE the Koran. Sources that secular historians deemed unreliable and too sectarian to trust. After all Sunnis have conflicting oral traditions than Shias do with each accusing the other of lies and fabrication. Yet they have the same Koran.

But in recent years, probably after 9-11, these oral sources found new audience in the West. Probably because its easier to attack Islam from them than the Koran.

Wanna bet I cannot contradict it?

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

Another person that thinks they know what I think, I love it. Where did I say anything about the Trinity? What I said was that, compared to the Quran, the Bible is well plotted and contains only minor errors. Anyone that has ever had to deal with a tech manual knows that they are almost always full of errors, and make statements that contradict reality, not to mention itself.

Regardless, the Quran is worse.

The Bible has tens of thousands of errors. Contradictions abound and it has more than enough hate to satisfy all but the truly perverse.

 

[Hister]

The bible reads like a technical manual? So Noah explains how he got 2 of every animal from every continent on a boat with food for 40 days? And god explains how you can morph a rib into a woman? ...
Buddy, your license to breath should be revoked!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The bible reads like a technical manual? So Noah explains how he got 2 of every animal from every continent on a boat with food for 40 days? And god explains how you can morph a rib into a woman? ...
Buddy, your license to breath should be revoked!

It was, but I stole yours. They should be coming for you anytime now.

 

[Hister]

The bible reads like a technical manual? So Noah explains how he got 2 of every animal from every continent on a boat with food for 40 days? And god explains how you can morph a rib into a woman? ...
Buddy, your license to breath should be revoked!

It was, but I stole yours. They should be coming for you anytime now.

C'mon windy, which part of the bible is the technical part? How to part the red sea? How to hold a resurrection?

 

[Bigmo]

What kind of contradictions? Bible is peace!

Anyways I have noticed many here have adopted a Neocon world view. The problem with Neoconservatism is that its not a traditional American movement. It has its roots in Leon Trotsky and the Marxist ideology. They rose to power in the Republican Party during the Reagan years. Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul are conservatives in the American tradition.

Anyways maybe some here are excused due to the Koranist Islam being somewhat different from Sectarian Islam. This is actually new to many people. Non Muslims and Muslims alike.

But I would like to add something from the Koranic view point regarding what constitutes faith.

The Koran does not seperate itself from the Gospel and the Torah although many Muslims are told otherwise. It actually sees itself in equal footing. The Koran although does not seperate between Muhammad and the other prophets, although Muslims see him as somehwat different. They see Muhammad as the "greatest" of the prophets and believe he abrogated the previous prophets. This is not something you will find in the Quran. Indeed, you will see the exact opposite.


"Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " 2:136

"The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. " 2:285

{4:152}
"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

So the Koran does not make ANY DISTINCTION between the prophets and it also makes no distinction between scriptures.

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)


But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 68)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, “Believe in what God Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”

So from a Koranic point of view, there is nothing called I believe in Bible but not the Koran. As both scriptures are saying the same thing. I certainly do not see any difference.

But Islam versus Christianity, or Christianity versus Judaism? Big difference.

Thats because the Talmud took over Judaism, the Trinity took over Christianity and the Sunnah took over Islam.

These are not scripture oriented religions.

The Koran recognizes faith not based on sect. It says regarding faith:

2.62. Those who believe , and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69. Those who believe , those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

49.13. O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

The Koran is non sectarian. It does not believe in religious dogma. It recognized faith as a human condition. The Koran does not discriminate based on sect, race or tribe. It discriminate based on faith in God and the here after.

Koran is universal. Koran is peace!

 

[Montrovant]

The bible reads like a technical manual? So Noah explains how he got 2 of every animal from every continent on a boat with food for 40 days? And god explains how you can morph a rib into a woman? ...
Buddy, your license to breath should be revoked!

It was, but I stole yours. They should be coming for you anytime now.

C'mon windy, which part of the bible is the technical part? How to part the red sea? How to hold a resurrection?

If I remember correctly, the building of the arc read like a technical manual

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It was, but I stole yours. They should be coming for you anytime now.

C'mon windy, which part of the bible is the technical part? How to part the red sea? How to hold a resurrection?

If I remember correctly, the building of the arc read like a technical manual

The Ark of the Covenant was described in great detail, as was the Tabernacle. Everything was laid out directly by God, right down to the alternating pomegranates and bells on the hem of the High Priest's robe.

But feel free to join Hister in mocking. I know it makes him feel intelligent, and if it does the same for you than you obviously need all the help you can get.

 

[Bigmo]

The bible reads like a technical manual? So Noah explains how he got 2 of every animal from every continent on a boat with food for 40 days? And god explains how you can morph a rib into a woman? ...
Buddy, your license to breath should be revoked!

It was, but I stole yours. They should be coming for you anytime now.

C'mon windy, which part of the bible is the technical part? How to part the red sea? How to hold a resurrection?

The purpose here is faith and not academic or science. Pharoah thought he was god. So God showed him otherwise.