Does SSDD have a point that the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to radiative heat transfer

[Wuwei]

I see what your problem is. It's all a matter of terminology. I sometimes referred to the signals as radio waves because they were detected by a radio telescope.

Lets try this one more time....if you can't get it this time, then I am afraid that you are doomed to live in ignorance....first, they were working with a radio telescope...and they received radio waves....nothing more

Second, the radio wave in question CORRESPONDED to CMB...it was not CMB

Third...what does CMB stand for?....cosmic MICROWAVE background....CMB is microwave....not radio...refer to the "little picture" I provided for you...they did not receive microwaves over that radio antenna...

Fourth...actual CMB has a black body spectrum of 160.23 GHz...in the microwave spectrum....the radio frequency 7.35 centimeters corresponds to a microwave frequency of 160.23 GHZ...it isn't actually the CMB signal....as I said, 7.35cm is a resonance frequency of CMB...not CMB itself.

The large dishes that point to outer space are called Radio Telescopes. But they detect not just radio waves, but also microwaves. Those detectors focused on microwaves are still called Radio Telescopes.

This table is from the FCC defining frequency allocations. Go to the top of page 65 to see the legend that says that the frequencies are in GHz, or the microwave region. Then look further down. You will see that 158.5 to 164 is reserved for satellite communication. That's what Penzias and Wilson were initially interested in. Look at the other two entries on either side. They are for RADIO ASTRONOMY. You were confused by the fact that radio telescopes are also used in the microwave region. The fact that the FCC calls the microwave detection in that region "radio astronomy" should put your objection to rest.

What P&W recognized was that they found one sample at 7.34cm of the CMB radiation. For you to say the sample "corresponded" to CMB is meaningless. It was in reality a sample of EM radiation from the CMB itself.

http://transition.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf
Table of Frequency Allocations .... 130-200 GHz (EHF) ... Page 65
------------------------------
155.5-158.5
EARTH EXPLORATION-SATELLITE (passive)
FIXED
MOBILE
RADIO ASTRONOMY
SPACE RESEARCH (passive) 5.562B
-------------------------------
158.5-164
FIXED
FIXED-SATELLITE (space-to-Earth)
MOBILE
MOBILE-SATELLITE (space-to-Earth)
-------------------------------
164-167
EARTH EXPLORATION-SATELLITE (passive)
RADIO ASTRONOMY
SPACE RESEARCH (passive)
-------------------------------

Now, for the rest of your post:

you are doomed to live in ignorance ...

your own bullshit....in fact, you have gobbled so much of your bullshit that you...

Now wallow in your ignorance and bullshit if you like....drag your intellect through ten more miles of sewer on this topic if you like after all, what is a few more miles after having been dragged through the sewers for so far already...it is never going to make you right, and will do nothing more than demonstrate that you are a disciple of dogma and like the other warmer wackos on this board.....are willing to say anything...no matter how outlandish, in an effort to fool anyone into joining you on the crazy train.

You are really flying off the handle here. I understand that you don't know as much as you would like to in science, but that sort of emotion on an anonymous forum reflects more on your instability than the person it is aimed at.

 

[SSDD]

The problem is all yours....and apparently you can't fix stupid....anyone who bothers to look...who doesn't have a first class seat on the crazy train with you will grasp pretty quickly that you have been wrong all along...now is a bit late to try and save face...but good luck anyway.

And the fact remains that CMB was first discovered via a radio wave at 7.35 cm...no matter how hard you try, nor how much you twist and turn...or how much mental masturbation you engage in...you can't turn a 7.35cm radio wave into actual CMB which is a microwave at 160.23 GHz...

 

[Wuwei]

The problem is all yours....and apparently you can't fix stupid....anyone who bothers to look...who doesn't have a first class seat on the crazy train with you will grasp pretty quickly that you have been wrong all along...now is a bit late to try and save face...but good luck anyway.

And the fact remains that CMB was first discovered via a radio wave at 7.35 cm...no matter how hard you try, nor how much you twist and turn...or how much mental masturbation you engage in...you can't turn a 7.35cm radio wave into actual CMB which is a microwave at 160.23 GHz...

You are right. I was wrong. My hat's off to you. The 7.35 cm tuning had nothing to do with the CMB.
They were tuned to the 7.35 band to eliminate all man-made interference, but saw an unexplained thermal noise.

Discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation - Wikipedia

Penzias and Wilson "removed the effects of radar and radio broadcasting, and suppressed interference from the heat in the receiver itself by cooling it with liquid helium to −269 °C, only 4 K above absolute zero.

When Penzias and Wilson reduced their data they found a low, steady, mysterious noise that persisted in their receiver. This residual noise was 100 times more intense than they had expected, was evenly spread over the sky, and was present day and night."​

Penzias and Wilson found an excess heat given by the thermal noise. They published a note in the "Astrophysical Journal Letters" titled, "A Measurement of Excess Antenna Temperature at 4080 Megacycles per Second."

When they got rid of all possible noise sources the detector should have read 4K, liquid helium temperature. But it read a temperature of around 7.5. That excess noise was the CMB adding heat to the 4K detector plus a small amount of electronic noise.

Here's the bottom line: both you and I were wrong about the detector directly measuring a sample of the CMB. The detector was actually measuring the heat of the CMB above that of the detector heat. This even more clearly shows that the cold CMB struck a slightly warmer detector.

 

[SSDD]

Sorry guy...you are still wrong...I was not....they received a radio signal....radio signals don't have temperature...and they didn't measure any heat...they found a resonance signal that corresponded to a microwave frequency....nothing more...nothing less

 

[Wuwei]

Sorry guy...you are still wrong...I was not....they received a radio signal....radio signals don't have temperature...and they didn't measure any heat...they found a resonance signal that corresponded to a microwave frequency....nothing more...nothing less

Right radio signals don't have temperature, but they are emitted as black body radiation. It's the CMB that has heat, and the radio waves are what are emitted.

It's like saying that the sun's red, blue, green, etc. don't have temperature (true). However they do carry the BB radiation from the sun to earth.

Their paper was titled, "A Measurement of Excess Antenna Temperature at 4080 Megacycles per Second." ... That was the whole thrust of their measurement. It showed the detector was receiving more heat than the 4K it was cooled down to.

Can you carefully explain what in the experiment you think the "resonance signal" was? They didn't receive any external signals. That would have spoiled the experiment.

 

[SSDD]

Right radio signals don't have temperature, but they are emitted as black body radiation. It's the CMB that has heat, and the radio waves are what are emitted.

No...microwaves are what was emitted...that is why they call it cosmic microwave background radiation rather than cosmic radio wave radiation...sorry you just can't grasp the concept of a resonance frequency...what it means...what it is...guess that shows that you aren't nearly as smart as you fancy yourself.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Right radio signals don't have temperature, but they are emitted as black body radiation. It's the CMB that has heat, and the radio waves are what are emitted.

No...microwaves are what was emitted...that is why they call it cosmic microwave background radiation rather than cosmic radio wave radiation...sorry you just can't grasp the concept of a resonance frequency...what it means...what it is...guess that shows that you aren't nearly as smart as you fancy yourself.

No...microwaves are what was emitted...that is why they call it cosmic microwave background radiation rather than cosmic radio wave radiation

Oh, so if you call them microwaves then energy from cooler matter is allowed to travel to the warmer surface of Earth?

sorry you just can't grasp the concept of a resonance frequency

And you still can't explain what "resonance frequency" means.

 

[Wuwei]

No...microwaves are what was emitted...that is why they call it cosmic microwave background radiation rather than cosmic radio wave radiation.

Yes, I agree.

.sorry you just can't grasp the concept of a resonance frequency...what it means...what it is...guess that shows that you aren't nearly as smart as you fancy yourself.

Exactly what was resonating in their detector. The detector was aimed at the sky and resonantly tuned to a very narrow band 7.35 wavelength that had no man-made signals. So there was no signal to resonate in the detector. So what do you think was resonating?

 

[SSDD]

Oh, so if you call them microwaves then energy from cooler matter is allowed to travel to the warmer surface of Earth?

First...was the big bang...the source of the radiation cooler than the earth?...second...was the instrument not cooled to almost absolute zero?

And you still can't explain what "resonance frequency" means.

Already have...multiple times..but if it will help you out...I will explain again.. The natural frequency of an object....or system is the frequency at which it will vibrate if it is disturbed....resonance is what happens if the object or system is periodically disturbed at the same period of its natural frequency...even a very slight disturbance (which is what led to the discovery of CMB) will reinforce the energy stored in the system which will then cause the amplitude of the vibration to increase....

It was that amplification of the radio frequency that caught their attention and eventually led to the conclusion that it was CMB...The resonant radio frequency was matched to a black body spectrum using Planck's law where the peak of the recorded radio wave is used to determine the temperature by which a radiance can be computed using Planck's law. The recorded radio wave...using Planck's law was translated into a radiance measured in watts per square meter..

If you want to actually measure CMB...you need an instrument cooled to a temperature of less than 2.75K....today, it is measured by various satellites...

 

[SSDD]

No...microwaves are what was emitted...that is why they call it cosmic microwave background radiation rather than cosmic radio wave radiation.

Yes, I agree.

.sorry you just can't grasp the concept of a resonance frequency...what it means...what it is...guess that shows that you aren't nearly as smart as you fancy yourself.

Exactly what was resonating in their detector. The detector was aimed at the sky and resonantly tuned to a very narrow band 7.35 wavelength that had no man-made signals. So there was no signal to resonate in the detector. So what do you think was resonating?

No...it wasn't tuned to a particularly narrow wavelength....and certainly not to precisely 7.35cm....look above for an explanation of what a resonance frequency was and how it led to the discovery of CMB. The 7.35cm frequency had a periodic resonation which could not be explained by anything known....it was that resonance that caught their attention...they eliminated everything that could have possibly caused the resonance at that radio frequency... and were left with CMB....

 

[Wuwei]

No...it wasn't tuned to a particularly narrow wavelength....and certainly not to precisely 7.35cm....look above for an explanation of what a resonance frequency was and how it led to the discovery of CMB. The 7.35cm frequency had a periodic resonation which could not be explained by anything known....it was that resonance that caught their attention...they eliminated everything that could have possibly caused the resonance at that radio frequency... and were left with CMB....

The CMB signal was amplified by a MASER which has a very narrow bandwidth. Why do you say certainly not to precisely 7.35cm. That is what is published. Also the 7.35 cm wavelength was exactly what was resonating in the maser. How can it have a "periodic resonance" beyond that. What I read is there was an unexplained excess thermal signal in the the maser output, and not a periodic resonance. It is the 7.35 that is resonating.

They were left with the CMB as an explanation of the excess thermal signal. Even the title of their paper was,
"A Measurement of Excess Antenna Temperature at 4080 Megacycles per Second."
At any rate it was a detector at 4K that measured the 2.7K CMB.

 

[SSDD]

The CMB signal was amplified by a MASER which has a very narrow bandwidth. Why do you say certainly not to precisely 7.35cm. That is what is published. Also the 7.35 cm wavelength was exactly what was resonating in the maser. How can it have a "periodic resonance" beyond that. What I read is there was an unexplained excess thermal signal in the the maser output, and not a periodic resonance. It is the 7.35 that is resonating.

Because they freely admit that their discovery of CMB was an accident....As stated by the APS:

As part of the APS historic sites initiative, on December 9, 2008, APS Vice-President Curtis Callan presented a plaque to Bell Labs to commemorate the discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) that provided evidence for the Big Bang. Bell Labs radio astronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were using a large horn antenna in 1964 and 1965 to map signals from the Milky Way, when they serendipitously discovered the CMB. As written in the citation, "This unexpected discovery, offering strong evidence that the universe began with the Big Bang, ushered in experimental cosmology." Penzias and Wilson shared the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1978 in honor of their findings.[/quiote]

They were scanning over a range of frequencies...mapping "SIGNALS"...the resonance at 7.35cm was an accidental discovery.

At any rate it was a detector at 4K that measured the 2.7K CMB.

And the ignorance persists....they didn't measure CMB with that antenna...they measured a radio frequency at 7.35 which is a resonant frequency of the microwave signal that is 160.23GHz. The radio noise was 100 times more intense than they expected....resonance....The actual CMB radiation was later measured with an instrument cooled to a temperature very close to absolute zero.

 

[Wuwei]

Because they freely admit that their discovery of CMB was an accident....As stated by the APS:

Right. Many remarkable discoveries were made by accident.

.they eliminated everything that could have possibly caused the resonance at that radio frequency... and were left with CMB.

Right. That mystery was solved by Jim Peebles who figured that there would be a temperature remnant of the big bang, and as it turned out Peelbes was right.

 

[SSDD]

Because they freely admit that their discovery of CMB was an accident....As stated by the APS:

Right. Many remarkable discoveries were made by accident.

.they eliminated everything that could have possibly caused the resonance at that radio frequency... and were left with CMB.

Right. That mystery was solved by Jim Peebles who figured that there would be a temperature remnant of the big bang, and as it turned out Peelbes was right.

Yes..he was right...but Penzias didn't measure...or receive CMB with that radio telescope...that came later...he found a resonant radio frequency that led them to the microwave frequency...which was then detected, and measured with an entirely different sort of instrument cooled to a temperature lower than that of the CMB itself...which is exactly what I have been saying all along....

 

[Wuwei]

Yes..he was right...but Penzias didn't measure...or receive CMB with that radio telescope...that came later...he found a resonant radio frequency that led them to the microwave frequency...which was then detected, and measured with an entirely different sort of instrument cooled to a temperature lower than that of the CMB itself...which is exactly what I have been saying all along....

Nope. They discovered a signal at 7.35 cm that was beyond the noise level of their detector and that was an actual sample of the CMB that came across the universe. Of course all scientists understand that. You don't.

 

[SSDD]

Yes..he was right...but Penzias didn't measure...or receive CMB with that radio telescope...that came later...he found a resonant radio frequency that led them to the microwave frequency...which was then detected, and measured with an entirely different sort of instrument cooled to a temperature lower than that of the CMB itself...which is exactly what I have been saying all along....

Nope. They discovered a signal at 7.35 cm that was beyond the noise level of their detector and that was an actual sample of the CMB that came across the universe. Of course all scientists understand that. You don't.

So your claim is that CMB is a radio wave...and they just misnamed it when they called it cosmic microwave background?

 

[Wuwei]

So your claim is that CMB is a radio wave...and they just misnamed it when they called it cosmic microwave background?

Nope. First it isn't my claim nor is it the claim of astrophysics.

Second, the BB radiation from the CMB is broad and stretches from its peak in microwaves to radio wavelengths. That outlier in the radio frequencies is what was detected by Penzias and Wilson.

Note that the outlier wavelengths around 7 cm can be detected from ground-based telescopes.

 

[SSDD]

So your claim is that CMB is a radio wave...and they just misnamed it when they called it cosmic microwave background?

Nope. First it isn't my claim nor is it the claim of astrophysics.

Second, the BB radiation from the CMB is broad and stretches from its peak in microwaves to radio wavelengths. That outlier in the radio frequencies is what was detected by Penzias and Wilson.

Note that the outlier wavelengths around 7 cm can be detected from ground-based telescopes.

you just go on proving that stupid can't be fixed...see 7cm on that chart?...Radio...detectable on the ground...see the actual wavelength of CMB...160.23 GHz?....not radio...not even close...microwave....not detectable on the ground....but you believe whatever you like...thanks though for the graph that proves my point...

 

[Wuwei]

.see the actual wavelength of CMB...160.23 GHz?

I guess you don't understand black body radiation. The 600 GHz refers to the peak frequency, not wavelength. The CMB is not just one narrow peak it is a broad spectrum. Penzias and Wilson did not have the equipment to measure the actual peak at micro-wavelengths. They measured a longer wavelength away from the peak. I thought I was clear about that. It should have been obvious from the graph. Try to keep that in mind the next time you look at the graph.

 

[elektra]

Does any of this matter? No matter who is right or wrong, there is no relevance to how we live our lives.