Do you support abolishing the Federal Dept of Education?

[thereisnospoon]

Yeah, just what country needs, one room schools houses, classes taught in churches, and a literacy rate of 50%.

In the days of the one room school house this country had a literacy rate of over 90%

What are you, stupid?

National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - 120 Years of Literacy

Percentage of persons 14 years old and over who were illiterate (unable to read or write in any language), by race and nativity: 1870 to 1979

1870 = 20%
1920 = 6%
1979 = 0.6%

In the hundred years preceeding the appearance of DOE, almost everyone became literate.

Gee How did this happen without the DOE?

I once read a news item that told of how the English language was taught during the 19th century. It also discussed the types of exams taken and some sample questions were provided. Most students today could not graduate from high school if they were subjected to those standards.

 

[thereisnospoon]

ronnie ray-gun refused to close the dept of education when congress tried during his watch.

I guess the cowboy from cucamonga doesn't hold the authority he used to anymore.

link?

 

[thereisnospoon]

you can probably find about 10,000 posts and articles about why we don't need a dept of educations at the federal level. Here's one that says we definitely do need one.

There needs to be some commonality between the educational system in maine and mississippi. Employers and colleges expect it.

Much of what the doe does is to monitor educational programs to determine what works, then to encourage local schools systems throughout the country via grants to pickup these programs and try them in their schools. Much of 69 billion dollars in the doe budget goes to local school districts.

State doe's and local school districts are very dependent on federal leadership in the development of new programs and curriculum. You need only look at your local school district and state doe to see that without a federal dept of education costs would increase in every state and local school district.

your first error is assuming there would be no "commonality" between the state's education systems without the doe.

Do you have any evidence that there was a vast difference between states' education before the doe? Frankly, i doubt it. Why? Because much of the doe's efforts, and the efforts of all federal depts., is to justify their own budgets to congress. A doe study comparing educational effectiveness before and after the creation of the doe would not serve this primary objective.

Your second erroneous assumption is that the doe pays for every federally mandated educational "reform." they pay nothing for integrating districts, little for nclb, and no where near the costs of idea. Their only purpose is to use title i funding as a carrot, and withholding it as a stick, to force districts to pay for programs having nothing to do with local concerns.

Your third preposterous statement is that states are "very dependent on federal leadership." the only states that "depend" on federal aid are those who have a majority of local districts that are failing despite three decades of federal advice.

bingo!!!!!

 

[ClosedCaption]

@ fire

And when they try to move after stiffing their former landlords their rental history will be so great they move anywhere they want. Oh wait, landlords do background checks so that won't work. Btw, your answer is to stiff every bill and everything will be fine. Lol yeah, that palm is fool proof.

I'm sorry if the way things are for the poor is unsavory for you. Landlords for low rent properties don't do background checks. It's not worth it, they know what they are getting in the first place. They are hoping to find a renter to simply pay the rent "on time" is something that people that rent out nice places are worried about. Low income renters just want rent as often as they can get it.
I'm sorry if the poor don't have it as good as you think, but then not all of us have had to walk inthose shoes

. The bolder part is a flat out lie. No wonder you think it's so easy to move, or stiff everyone without consequence because you are ignorant of the landlord / tenant process. The way a landlord ensures he is paid on time is to call the prior landlord and ask. That's smart business. But why would I expect you to know that when you think people can run up bills and leave.

 

[Firehorse]

Reality, that's why.

Your dealing with the poor. People that don't have a steady income. When a man asks to rent your low income home and he stands there with wife and family and 2.3 children and tells you "I've had trouble keeping a job, but I'm a hard worker"

Why would a landlord spend a single second checking on his background? He just said at times he doesn't have the rent. Why waste the time?

People that rent to the poor don't do it for rent, they do it to help their fellow man that needs help. I know that this it a strange concept for you Dems to understand, but people to actually personally help those in need, they don't just say "let the government deal with it"

I'm sorry if you have trouble believing these things, but it is true. God bless America

 

[Flopper]

Much of what the DOE does is to monitor educational programs to determine what works, then to encourage local schools systems throughout the country via grants to pickup these programs and try them in their schools. Much of 69 billion dollars in the DOE budget goes to local school districts.

First off judging by our kids Test results I think we can say the DOE sucks ASS at "determining what works". The education level of our graduating students has steadily declined since the DOE came into Existence 40 Plus Years ago.

Second, Tied to the Billions of dollars the DOE hands out to states are All sorts of Mandates, and Regulations and strings that force the states to spend about 1.25 for every dollar they get in Federal Funds.

So sorry dude that dog don't hunt. They do not fund our schools, they give them money with strings attached that force them to spend more then they get, and impose standards and Techniques that have led to a decline in the quality of Education our students get, not an Improvement.

So both the basic Ideas of your Pro DOE post are both BS.

The only valid thing you said is that we need some uniformity among the states. However that can be achieved through means other than a massive Federal Bureaucracy. Especially when said Bureaucracy is failing so miserably at just about everything it does.

Nope. When the Dept of Education was created in 1980, the dropout rate was 14.1%. Dropout prevention has been a major issue for the Dept. since it’s inception resulting a number of federally funded dropout prevention programs. In 2008, the dropout rate was 8%, the lowest in our history.

There are a lot of reasons why test scores that were rising in the 1990’s fell throughout the last decade. Blaming the US Dept of Education is a bit silly. The federal government provides less than 10% of funding for K-12 public education and much of that comes from other departments. The Dept. of Education does not create curriculum, hire teachers, or manage the school. The Dept. supplements local school districts funding to help districts comply with laws passed by Congress and make available competitive grants to schools, which allow them to acquire new technology and create new programs. 99% of the Department’s funds goes to local schools. Although the Department of Education has one of largest budgets it has the least employees of all Departments.

If you what to reduce federal influence on Education, you start by repealing the laws that put requirements on local school districts. Abolishing the Dept simply makes it more difficult for schools to meet federal requirements.

High School Dropout Rates by Gender, 1960–2008 — Infoplease.com

 

[Flopper]

You can probably find about 10,000 posts and articles about why we don't need a Dept of Educations at the federal level. Here's one that says we definitely do need one.

There needs to be some commonality between the educational system in Maine and Mississippi. Employers and colleges expect it.

Much of what the DOE does is to monitor educational programs to determine what works, then to encourage local schools systems throughout the country via grants to pickup these programs and try them in their schools. Much of 69 billion dollars in the DOE budget goes to local school districts.

State DOE's and local school districts are very dependent on federal leadership in the development of new programs and curriculum. You need only look at your local school district and state DOE to see that without a federal Dept of Education costs would increase in every state and local school district.

I'm not suggesting that the funding go away. Since DC drains so much money from the states, they can afford to block grant back funds. I just want the meddling to go away..

Do you support National Assessment tests? They why was there screaming and whining about NCLB testing? If the FEDs can't MEASURE -- then the FEDS can't help.. Simple logic Flopper...

And the statement that "local school districts are very dependent on federal leadership in the development of new programs and curriculum" is blatantly false. States are very proud of THEIR top heavy bureaucracies that create SPECIAL CALIFORNIA versions of Algebra 2.. As tho the premises contained in Algebra 2 have changed since 1980 or there is a different Algebra 2 based on abacuses used in Oregon...

If look at many of the state initiatives you will often find they are based on federal initiatives and quite often some federal funding.

 

[Flopper]

Name one other modern nation in the world that doesn't have its own department of education.

Education is a national priority - the quality of one's education, like health, is far too inportant to be totally dependent on the financial resources of the individual state in which you happen to live.

The object is not to be like everyone else. It's to be better then everyone else. The system we have is broken, we are ranked at or near the bottom in many catagories in the eductation of our youth (with the exception of money spent per child) ... The DOE is broken, it's not working

It's not working to the level that "tweeking" it isn't enough. We need either a complete overhaul or toss it in favor of something else. If we are already at the bottom of the rankings, then whatever it is replaced with would either be an improvement or a break even

We are throwing more and more good money into a bad system that by every measuring stick is not working. In times of tightening of the purse strings, the DOE with it's low performace record has got to become more streamlined and effect or be tossed completely in favor of something more steamlibed and effect.

As in American, I can handle keeping an education system that ranks us in the top three with a little bit of tweeking, but last place or near it? .... Totally unacceptable.

Much of the success of other countries such as China and Singapore is the result of policies that most Americans would not find acceptable. In China elementary students start school as early as 7am and school last till 5. They also have on 1 month vacation instead of our our 3 month vacation. In China and many other countries, student testing is used for a lot more than evacuation of the system. Students that do poorly find themselves in vocational schools. In the US we shutdown schools for 3 months out of the year. How many businesses do you know that can afford to close for 1/4 of the year. In some countries, vacations are staggered so schools can run year round.

Increase classroom time by 50%, run the schools two months longer each year, and use achievement tests to weed out poor performing students and you will see remarkably better test scores.

And BTW, the US educational system is far from being last place in world.

 

[Samson]

If look at many of the state initiatives you will often find they are based on federal initiatives and quite often some federal funding.

State initiatives are based on Federal initiatives.......and the egg came before the chicken?

BEFORE the DOE, US illiteracy went from 20% in 1870 to 0.6% in 1979.

 

[Flopper]

Schools in this nation began when churches offered their spacious buildings to be used during the week for the schooling of young children until they had sufficient knowledge to live life well; to govern; and to engage a community to benefit others in the region, the state, and the greater world. That's what parents wanted for their children.

Nowadays, we have websites showing 200 teachers a year being sentenced to jail terms for statutory rapes of the minor children they are teaching, not to mention physical or mental abuse. For every one that gets a sentence, just like any other crime, there are likely 50-100 who didn't get caught.

Children ignore parents and other people because they are busy texting their will upon their friends in secret. Some children actually attack anyone interrupting this bad habit.

The Columbine School murders in Colorado happened as a result of two otherwise normal boys becoming fascinated with power crimes over other people, and they learned how to control the group that bullied them and others with weaponry and bomb-making equipment. They murdered 13 people before committing suicide, bringing the day's horror to 15. Such an event is likely not to happen, but they do happen, and none of us has any control over such a thing unless we are fit, armed, trained security personnel.

Violence in Schools

Yeah, just what country needs, one room schools houses, classes taught in churches, and a literacy rate of 50%.

It didn't hurt Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Paul Revere, or Benjamin Franklin one bit.

And literacy rates are estimated to range from near zero for blacks, 60% for women, and 70% for men. The literacy rate today in the US is at 99%.

 

[Samson]

So ... Back to the point. If your in a state that is mismanaging it's education system, then there is nothing stopping from moving, except the desire to do so. Nothing is keeping you in a bad educational system except your own willingness to do something about it

Yes

What they print devalues the money in my
pocket ... It's a no win, the DOE has failed by every measuring stick used, trash it in favor of something better

You if you mean higher local taxes are something "better," then good luck running for your position on the local school board.

 

[JimBowie1958]

If look at many of the state initiatives you will often find they are based on federal initiatives and quite often some federal funding.

State initiatives are based on Federal initiatives.......and the egg came before the chicken?

BEFORE the DOE, US illiteracy went from 20% in 1870 to 0.6% in 1979.

True factoids but false picture.

"The literacy rate in the US has many educators in search of answers about this problem that has plagued our country for decades. Instead of decreasing, the numbers of literacy has steadily increased over the years. This raises a lot of questions about our education system, how it is ran, and why there is such a problem with illiterate people in our country.

The NAAL (National Assessment of Adult Literacy) administered tests which revealed that an estimated 14% of US residents would have extreme difficulty with reading and written comprehension. These people can legally be defined as illiterate. "

Sorry, I cant post the URL yet, but its from caliteracy.org

 

[Foxfyre]

If look at many of the state initiatives you will often find they are based on federal initiatives and quite often some federal funding.

State initiatives are based on Federal initiatives.......and the egg came before the chicken?

BEFORE the DOE, US illiteracy went from 20% in 1870 to 0.6% in 1979.

True factoids but false picture.

"The literacy rate in the US has many educators in search of answers about this problem that has plagued our country for decades. Instead of decreasing, the numbers of literacy has steadily increased over the years. This raises a lot of questions about our education system, how it is ran, and why there is such a problem with illiterate people in our country.

The NAAL (National Assessment of Adult Literacy) administered tests which revealed that an estimated 14% of US residents would have extreme difficulty with reading and written comprehension. These people can legally be defined as illiterate. "

Sorry, I cant post the URL yet, but its from caliteracy.org

I have been seeing these functionally illiterate Americans for years now. They can't read the questions on an employment application well enough to understand the question and can't write well enough to answer it competently when they do. But they are a relatively recent phenomenon. Certainly since the 1970's. Before then nobody graduated from highschool without being able to read and write. Actually nobody graduated from Junior High/Middle School without being able to read and write.

And no, I don't mean that the school are not educating anybody. Clearly they are. But there are trends out there that are really ugly.

Social promotions and rigged results in the schools to meet government requirements have done a severe disservice to our nation's students. In my opinion government meddling, interference, regulation, and 'benevolence' in all social issues has done a great disservice to our nation's people overall.

 

[Oddball]

The literacy rate today in the US is at 99%.

I call bullshit.

 

[Oddball]

So, get called on you bullshit, and that means I want the pooooor cheeeeeeeeeellllllldrrrreeennnnn to starve!

Goddamn, are you little Fabian creeps predictable!

 

[freedombecki]

Yeah, just what country needs, one room schools houses, classes taught in churches, and a literacy rate of 50%.

It didn't hurt Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Paul Revere, or Benjamin Franklin one bit.

And literacy rates are estimated to range from near zero for blacks, 60% for women, and 70% for men. The literacy rate today in the US is at 99%.

Well, Mr. Flopper, I hate to be the one to burst your warm fuzzy bubble, but America now ranks poorly academically in science and math these days. If this transfers, here's the truth:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Poor U.S. Test Results[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Tied To Weak Curriculum[/FONT]

This downward slip of math skills has been eroding for the last 40 years for some reason. We rank very bad in math competitively, we're #24 in grade 8. Science scores are dismal, too. We're 10 countries below Canada, and 24 behind Singapore! See the above link, scroll down to Math test scores. We are a little better in science though.
​

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[Samson]

If look at many of the state initiatives you will often find they are based on federal initiatives and quite often some federal funding.

State initiatives are based on Federal initiatives.......and the egg came before the chicken?

BEFORE the DOE, US illiteracy went from 20% in 1870 to 0.6% in 1979.

True factoids but false picture.

I got the "interesting factoids" from a DOE study:

National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - 120 Years of Literacy

 

[Mr.Nick]

DOE places more of an emphasis on social engineering than they do "education."

Hell here in Chicago kids are forbidden from bringing their own lunches because they're "not healthy." While US flags are lowered and Mexican flags raised, while "teachers" encourage their students (and even pull their students out of class) to march for communist ideas, where kids get suspended for being Christian because they carry a Bible, where Christian kids are suspended for disagreeing with homosexuality.....

 

[Mr.Nick]

DOE places more of an emphasis on social engineering than they do "education."

Hell here in Chicago kids are forbidden from bringing their own lunches because they're "not healthy." While US flags are lowered and Mexican flags raised, while "teachers" encourage their students (and even pull their students out of class) to march for communist ideas, where kids get suspended for being Christian because they carry a Bible, where Christian kids are suspended for disagreeing with homosexuality.....

this is a local issue not federal.
you dont even understand what the DOE does.

Yeah and every issue I just showed is a "local" issue...

I have never heard of a federal education system...

Lets just say 80% of public school teachers sympathize with Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Guevara, Lenin and Saddam (ironically) among many others ...

They'd probably view Pablo Escobar as a hero too if he wasn't a drug dealer... In reality Escobar was probably more humanitarian than Ernesto Guevara despite his killing squads, Much like Che Ernesto Guevara, and who was a member and a leader of a death squad...

But yet I had a teacher (and professor) that would teach us all about the awesomeness of Che and his "peace crusade"...

But I suppose lining 100 people up against a wall, blind-folding them and then shooting 25 of them and then firing random shots to scare the other 75 is not "peace" - its terror.

Oh and then these asshat cons tried to educate me on how fantastic the "Little Red Book" was...

 

[grunt11b]

Well, education is very local already. I really want to hear the arguments on both sides for this one.

It's not very local when a federal entity is overseeing it is it?