Do you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus?

[sky dancer]

Because then he wouldn't be a man, and couldn't act as an example of all that a man could be.

Also because if he appeared on a lotus he wouldn't be fulfilling prophecy.

That makes sense. That's what I've been clumsily trying to say. Jesus came to show all the way to human potential-the inseparability of God and man.

I'm not a big OT student. What scriptures prophesized Jesus? Why do Jews think he is NOT the one who was prophesized? (Sorry, if I'm getting too deep here, these questions have always puzzled me.)

BTW, just as an aside.... Padmasambhava, the Lotus Born, Guru Rinpoche was prophesized by Shakamuni Buddha.

 

[Modbert]

From that same source, the American Bible Website:

"Some people actually sold themselves as slaves because they could have a higher standard of life as a slave than if they had to keep struggling to find housing or food on their own.
Some slaves were better educated than their masters and served as teachers of their master’s children. Slaves of rich masters had all kinds of opportunities that they would never have had on their own. ... After slaves became 30 years old, many would become “freedmen,” with duties to the former master and his family. Some slaves earned enough money to buy their own freedom, which would mean that their children could be free also."

So my point is (again) proven. The term "slave" did not have the same connotations then as today.
Slaves and Servants in the Time of Jesus :: American Bible Society

And here is where Jesus said he was God:
"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." John 14:11 (NIV)

Notice the bolded part.

Also note, I said you'd quote all that. However, you are ignoring the fact YOU said they had rights, legal rights, and other bullshit when guess what? THEY DON'T. Slavery was a last desperation attempt for people if you don't realize it. Is that what you're saying is okay? The term "slave" does have the same meaning it then as it does now with the exception that you could buy your way to freedom.

Are you THAT blind to your own ignorance?

 

[Modbert]

Robert....for you, since you said that Jesus did not proclaim to be God in the Bible.

Many verses in Isaiah, John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus' divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:

* Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

* John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."[26]The Bible says "God the One and Only" in NIV.

* John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."

* John 8:23–24: "But he continued,'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'"

* John 8:58 "I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

* John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

* John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

* John 12:41: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him."—As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:10 refers to Jesus.

* John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" Due to the strict laws of Moses concerning blasphemy, Jesus and all of the apostles in the room were obligated to put Thomas to death for the blasphemy of calling a man God, unless that man truly was God. Jesus was similarly prohibited from receiving the worship of men as God, unless he was God. Thus the response of Jesus and others in the room indicates that all of them believed Jesus to be God, not only Thomas.

* Matthew 28:17: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some were doubtful." Under the Laws of Moses, no man could allow others to worship him as God - this being considered blasphemous. Jesus allowed his followers to worship him, indicating that Jesus believed himself to be God.

These are only a few passages that supports Jesus as God made man....

Thank you Care, but that really doesn't change any of my arguments since none of my main arguments really revolved around that. But thanks, that was some interesting reads, a couple I've never seen before too.

It's interesting though how the majority of those are in John though.

 

[AllieBaba]

"What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master....
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside-out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God, receiving His salvation – God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, he will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery."
Does the Bible condone slavery?


Part of the problem is that we have false ideas about what slavery was really like. The life of a slave was not easy, but we get an exaggerated idea of the hardships of slavery from watching movies or reading historical material that is written on a popular level. Here the purpose is usually to dramatize the plight of slaves or to make some point about the evils of slavery in general, (1) but the historical reality was less dramatic. In most cases the life of a slave was not much different from the life of any lower-class worker. Those who have been in the military have experienced something like it — being legally bound to an employer and to a job that one cannot simply "quit" at will, not free to leave without permission, subject to discipline if one disobeys or is grossly negligent — all of this is familiar enough to those of us who have served in the military. And yet we know that the daily life of a good soldier is not especially hard. This is what it was like to be a slave.

Another problem is, when thinking about slavery we tend to have in mind the recent slavery of the black race in America, and so the whole subject of slavery gets mixed up with the issue of racism. But in ancient times, slavery was not associated with any particular race. By condoning slavery the Bible does not approve of racism.

A third reason why modern people have a hard time understanding the Bible's treatment of slavery is that we often now tend to confuse morality with political values. The modern tendency is to politicize everything, including even the Christian gospel. Moral philosophy or ethics has become so politicized that it seems to be almost a sub-department of political science now, which is why we have seen the rise of an elaborate political correctness in our public life. "Racism," "sexism," "homophobia," and so on, are the really serious sins under this new morality.
The Bible and Slavery

 

[Modbert]

"What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master....
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside-out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God, receiving His salvation – God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, he will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery."
Does the Bible condone slavery?


Part of the problem is that we have false ideas about what slavery was really like. The life of a slave was not easy, but we get an exaggerated idea of the hardships of slavery from watching movies or reading historical material that is written on a popular level. Here the purpose is usually to dramatize the plight of slaves or to make some point about the evils of slavery in general, (1) but the historical reality was less dramatic. In most cases the life of a slave was not much different from the life of any lower-class worker. Those who have been in the military have experienced something like it — being legally bound to an employer and to a job that one cannot simply "quit" at will, not free to leave without permission, subject to discipline if one disobeys or is grossly negligent — all of this is familiar enough to those of us who have served in the military. And yet we know that the daily life of a good soldier is not especially hard. This is what it was like to be a slave.

Another problem is, when thinking about slavery we tend to have in mind the recent slavery of the black race in America, and so the whole subject of slavery gets mixed up with the issue of racism. But in ancient times, slavery was not associated with any particular race. By condoning slavery the Bible does not approve of racism.

A third reason why modern people have a hard time understanding the Bible's treatment of slavery is that we often now tend to confuse morality with political values. The modern tendency is to politicize everything, including even the Christian gospel. Moral philosophy or ethics has become so politicized that it seems to be almost a sub-department of political science now, which is why we have seen the rise of an elaborate political correctness in our public life. "Racism," "sexism," "homophobia," and so on, are the really serious sins under this new morality.
The Bible and Slavery

Great, so because someone is comparing slavery back then to the Military and because people of all colors were slaves then that makes it okay?

Too bad this article fails to address the fact that outside a draft, people volunteer for the military. This article also fails to mention the countless people captured during war that were made into slaves.

Though you refuse to address my point that they had NO FREEDOMS. You REFUSE to admit you were wrong, instead posting things that were not even your work or even your opinion with sourcing the work. I'm sure I could find a bunch of articles out there supporting my POV too.

Now, are you going to admit you were wrong in saying that they had rights, legal stuff,etc? Or are you going to spew more bullshit?

But hey, keep trying to justify slavery. Slavery never has and never will be a good thing for any slave or society. They are OWNED by another human being. Jesus said treat each other as you would want to be treated. I would not want to be treated like a slave. So if I offer you a home, shelter, and food Allie; does that mean you wouldn't mind becoming a slave in my household?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Allie.....you're a fucking racist bitch.

 

[AllieBaba]

Er...America has the largest volunteer army in the world..and our army is an anomaly. Men has historically been REQUIRED to serve in the military.

But that's neither here nor there. I'm not racist (in fact, as stated over and over, slaves were not based upon race in Biblical times) nor am I supporting slavery. RS made the allegation that Christ, who was a socialist, also condoned slavery. After requesting some back up to prove that, I went ahead and posted that Christ was not political in the sense that he supported a certain political body; he was concerned only about the body of the church. And I also pointed out that "slave" in the bible had a completely different connotation and represented a completely different class of people than "slave" today.

It's sort of like if I were to talk about marriage now, I'd be talking about a man and a woman. But in the future, the goons could be looking back and saying, "Look, that dumb racist bitch didn't say anything about how horrible it is for guys to marry their dogs!"

Well no, because "marriage" didn't refer to guys marrying their helpless pets.

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie.....you're a fucking racist bitch.

Yeah, you're a class act yourself, GayBiker. YOu just like to say those naughty words. Of course they have absolutely nothing to do with anything being said here, but enjoy the ride. I'm sure there's not much else going on in your life at this point.

 

[sky dancer]

Yeah, you're a class act yourself, GayBiker. YOu just like to say those naughty words. Of course they have absolutely nothing to do with anything being said here, but enjoy the ride. I'm sure there's not much else going on in your life at this point.

This poster is not gay. Do you use the word, 'gay' as an insult? Gay just happens to be what some people are.

 

[Modbert]

Er...America has the largest volunteer army in the world..and our army is an anomaly. Men has historically been REQUIRED to serve in the military.

But that's neither here nor there. I'm not racist (in fact, as stated over and over, slaves were not based upon race in Biblical times) nor am I supporting slavery. RS made the allegation that Christ, who was a socialist, also condoned slavery. After requesting some back up to prove that, I went ahead and posted that Christ was not political in the sense that he supported a certain political body; he was concerned only about the body of the church. And I also pointed out that "slave" in the bible had a completely different connotation and represented a completely different class of people than "slave" today.

It's sort of like if I were to talk about marriage now, I'd be talking about a man and a woman. But in the future, the goons could be looking back and saying, "Look, that dumb racist bitch didn't say anything about how horrible it is for guys to marry their dogs!"

Well no, because "marriage" didn't refer to guys marrying their helpless pets.

Well of course, I'm talking about the US Volunteer Army, but even in other countries you only serve a limited amount of time.

I never called you racist. I gave evidence that Jesus's views were Socialist, not that the man himself had political views.

And no need to make outrageous claims to try and justify your bullshit ones. You're trying to justify slavery because otherwise the bible is wrong which makes God's/Jesus's word imperfect and makes your whole argument fall like a anvil off a cliff.

Slavery back then: No Freedom
Slavery presently: No Freedom

Slavery back then: Used to pay back debts.
Slavery now: Used to pay back debts.

Case and Point? That eight year old girl in the other thread I started.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...ge-refuses-to-annul-marriage-of-girl-8-a.html

Are you just going to admit your wrong or no?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Here's why I called you a racist bitch......

First, the fucked up way that you keep trying to justify slavery by using verses from the Bible is totally way out of line. The Bible and God did NOT condone slavery. Matter of fact, God saw what was happening to his people (Israel), at the hands of the Egyptians. He said that it wasn't what was supposed to happen, but He understood how it occured, after all......the Israelites did something to put themselves there.

God then freed them.

What part of that do you NOT get Allie?

Now, as far as the racist thing? Well.......you have quite the habit of tyring to tell others how they should live their lives (according to you), and you're not happy unless they are doing as you say, or are gone.

You think you're better than everyone else, which makes you a racist. However......maybe you're not racist yet, just misguided. However, if you keep along the way you have been going? Well.......your selfishness will eventually breed racism, because you think you're better than everyone, as well as believe that your views are better, because you believe in a fairy tale.

 

[Modbert]

This poster is not gay. Do you use the word, 'gay' as an insult? Gay just happens to be what some people are.

She's showing some of that equality and loving thy fellow man that she is preaching for others to follow. Obviously that doesn't apply to herself.

 

[sky dancer]

She's showing some of that equality and loving thy fellow man that she is preaching for others to follow. Obviously that doesn't apply to herself.

The poster uses the word 'gay' as a slur. Puzzling. Is straight a slur?

 

[AllieBaba]

This poster is not gay. Do you use the word, 'gay' as an insult? Gay just happens to be what some people are.

*yawn*
Nice attempt to derail. No banana, though.

 

[Modbert]

*yawn*
Nice attempt to derail. No banana, though.

Your ignorance really shows no bounds. The fact you use "Gay" as an insult shows alot.

 

[AllieBaba]

Here's why I called you a racist bitch......

First, the fucked up way that you keep trying to justify slavery by using verses from the Bible is totally way out of line. The Bible and God did NOT condone slavery. Matter of fact, God saw what was happening to his people (Israel), at the hands of the Egyptians. He said that it wasn't what was supposed to happen, but He understood how it occured, after all......the Israelites did something to put themselves there.

God then freed them.

What part of that do you NOT get Allie?

Now, as far as the racist thing? Well.......you have quite the habit of tyring to tell others how they should live their lives (according to you), and you're not happy unless they are doing as you say, or are gone.

You think you're better than everyone else, which makes you a racist. However......maybe you're not racist yet, just misguided. However, if you keep along the way you have been going? Well.......your selfishness will eventually breed racism, because you think you're better than everyone, as well as believe that your views are better, because you believe in a fairy tale.

No, you fucking idiot. I am not "justifying" slavery. I'm responding to the ludicrous statement made by RS that Jesus was a SOCIALIST and CONDONED SLAVERY. I'm doing that by pointing out the HISTORICAL FACT that slavery in Biblical times was not what it became later.

Get it?

No, you don't. I know you don't get it, everyone knows you don't get it, even Yellow Dog knows you don't get it.

Your post is pure ridiculous garbage, and as usual, when you can't speak intelligently to the topic, you call me foul names and accuse me of non-pc behavior to try to get everyone all het up.

I'm not racist, I'm not breeding racism. All I'm doing is making the very effective argument that Jesus didn't "condone" slavery or any one particular political party.

And because I made the point effectively, you two have to start ranting and raving about something completely unrelated, which is my own views on slavery...which I don't believe I've even expounded on.

I just love the thought police. First Jesus condoned slavery and was a socialist. Then he wasn't. Then he was condoing it because he never said anything negative about it. Then I became a racist.

Boy, you guys are FANTASTIC in a debate. You deserve a hand.

 

[Sunni Man]

Book of Philemon in the Bible


Brief Summary: Paul had warned slave-owners that they had a responsibility towards their slaves and showed slaves as responsible moral beings who were to fear God. In Philemon, Paul did not condemn slavery but he presented Onesimus as a Christian brother instead of a slave. When an owner can refer to a slave as a brother, the slave has reached a position in which the legal title of slave is meaningless. The early church did not attack slavery directly but it laid the foundation for a new relationship between owner and slave.

 

[sky dancer]

Your ignorance really shows no bounds. The fact you use "Gay" as an insult shows alot.

Yes, it does. It speaks volumes.

 

[sky dancer]

No, you fucking idiot. I am not "justifying" slavery. I'm responding to the ludicrous statement made by RS that Jesus was a SOCIALIST and CONDONED SLAVERY. I'm doing that by pointing out the HISTORICAL FACT that slavery in Biblical times was not what it became later.

Get it?

No, you don't. I know you don't get it, everyone knows you don't get it, even Yellow Dog knows you don't get it.

Your post is pure ridiculous garbage, and as usual, when you can't speak intelligently to the topic, you call me foul names and accuse me of non-pc behavior to try to get everyone all het up.

I'm not racist, I'm not breeding racism. All I'm doing is making the very effective argument that Jesus didn't "condone" slavery or any one particular political party.

And because I made the point effectively, you two have to start ranting and raving about something completely unrelated, which is my own views on slavery...which I don't believe I've even expounded on.

I just love the thought police. First Jesus condoned slavery and was a socialist. Then he wasn't. Then he was condoing it because he never said anything negative about it. Then I became a racist.

Boy, you guys are FANTASTIC in a debate. You deserve a hand.

Who is 'yellow dog'? Why do you use the word 'gay' as an insult?

Why do Christians WANT to say that God condones slavery? What does any of this have to do with whether you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus?

Historically, the Bible was used to justify slavery in America. Why continue to justify slavery using the Bible now? Obviously, this was a misuse of the Bible.

 

[AllieBaba]

"Yellow dog" reference is from "Funny Farm", a Chevy CHase movie which is, incidentally, hilarious.

Don't bore me with pulling me into a nonsensical discussion of why I use the word "Gay" for GayBiker.

And I've never once said God condones slavery, or that I wanted him to. That's what the other side is saying. Maybe you don't read closely enough or need glasses.