Do Faithful Muslims Lie?

[Kalam]

You can be a student of somethign without having to practice it. There are a lot of very good Oncology specialists who have never had cancer, but they know how to treat it.

Do you know any oncology specialists who aren't proficient in the language of medicine?

 

[Kalam]

Get rid of Islam. It's primitive and barbaric and serves absolutely no useful purpose for a civilized society.

First move's yours.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Its close enough to get the gist .
Isnt it?

Nope.

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. (Al-Anfal 8:39)

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

Fitnah does not mean "disbelief and polytheism," deen does not mean "worship," "If they cease..." does not refer to "worshipping (sic) others besides Allah," and a dhalim is not a "polytheist." The meaning is context-dependent and does not denote polytheists. Completely incorrect.

And if Allah had pleased, they would not have set up others (with Him). And We have not appointed thee a keeper over them, and thou art not placed in charge of them. And abuse not those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest, exceeding the limits, they abuse Allah through ignorance. Thus to every people have We made their deeds fair-seeming; then to their Lord is their return so He will inform them of what they did... so leave them alone with what they forge -- and that the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter may incline thereto, and that they may be pleased with it, and that they may earn what they are earning. - 6:106-113​

From your source concerning the verse I asked about,
8:39
[39-40] O Believers, fight with the disbelievers till there is no more mischief and the way of life prescribed by Allah is established in its entirety.31 Then if they desist from mischief, surely Allah beholds what they do, but if they give no heed, know it that Allah is your Protector, and He is the best of all protectors and helpers.

Do you not have access to the end notes?

Here the war aim of Islam, which had previously been declared in 11: 193, has been repeated. This aim has two aspects-- the negative and the positive. On the negative side, the aim of war is to abolish (fitnah), and on the positive, it is to establish Allah's Way completely and in its entirety. This is the only objective for which it is lawful, nay, obligatory for the believers to fight. There is no other object for which fighting is lawful, and it does not behoove the believers to resort to fighting for any other objective. (For fuller details, please see E.N.'s 204 and 205 of Al-Baqarah.)​

Those being the end notes that I quoted earlier in this thread and which you failed to acknowledge. You must realize that you completely ignore information that contradicts your plebeian interpretations even when that information is right in front of you. Is your dishonesty still a conscious act or has it become automatic out of habit?

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The word translated as "mischief" in 8:39 is فتنةٌ - fitnatun.

The word translated as "make mischief" in 2:11, the passage your quote references, is تفسد - tafasid.

Sorry; they aren't synonyms, nor do they come from the same root. Regarding 8:39, why don't we use Maududi's definition of the word which you ignored earlier?

"...it denotes that condition of society which is not safe and free for adoption of the way of Allah."​

You seem stuck on the fitnah part Im asking about the until all religion part the fight until all religion is for all part.
Here are several translations of the verse.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/8/39/default.htm

Fight until blah blah blah

and

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;

 

[Kalam]

Well, that brings us back to the excerpts from the tafaseer that you failed to address.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I have no interest in abrogated quran text.

Please explain the until all religion part the fight until all religion is for all part.
Here are several translations of the verse.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:39

here are some of the variations .

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;
__________________

 

[Ravi]

pssst...fitnah....allah is also the christian god.

Just a casual internet search reveals the passage that comes before yours...you really should stop looking for things that confirm your beliefs.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

pssst...fitnah....allah is also the christian god.

Just a casual internet search reveals the passage that comes before yours...you really should stop looking for things that confirm your beliefs.

Ah no.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I have no interest in abrogated quran text.

Please explain the until all religion part the fight until all religion is for all part.
Here are several translations of the verse.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 8:39

here are some of the variations .

and all worship is devoted to God alone
and religion is all for Allah.
and religion should be only for Allah;
, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
and so that the entire system is God's.
no temptations and their obedience be wholly unto Allah.
and the religion, all of it be to God,
and the religion is all for Allah;
__________________

Kalam since you are the voice of Islam here please just answer and stop trying to obfuscate.
It is a fairly simple question related to your prior statement

Not to mention all of the information that isn't consistent with your silly Islamic world domination conspiracy theory.

 

[Madeline]

Mr. Fitnah, repetition dun make you any less wrong-o, and "having the last word" may signal your obsession, but not the correctness of your POV.

Nothing can do that.

 

[chanel]

There are over a dozen translatiions on Kalams link. Why do you believe Mr Fitnahs is the "wrong one"? Which translation does your local mosque ascribe to? How many of those faithful Muslims read the "end notes"?

 

[chanel]

pssst...fitnah....allah is also the christian god.

Just a casual internet search reveals the passage that comes before yours...you really should stop looking for things that confirm your beliefs.

Um not in Malaysia. One of the "models" of a secular Muslim country.

Malaysia has long had a reputation for being a secular Muslim nation. But recent events are threatening its moderate image.

Nine churches have been attacked with Molotov cocktails or vandalized since last Friday following a court ruling on New Year’s Eve that overturned a government ban on the use of the word “Allah” by non-Muslims.

The court was ruling on a lawsuit filed in 2007 by the Catholic newspaper The Herald. Authorities told the newspaper it could no longer use the word “Allah” to refer to God as it was specifically a Muslim term. The government and many Malaysian Muslims contend that the use of “Allah” by Christians could cause confusion among Muslims and encourage them to convert to the Christian faith.

Controversy flares over use of the word 'Allah' in Malaysia | Worldfocus

 

[Kalam]

I have no interest in abrogated quran text.

The tafaseer were both exegeses of the passages you posted. How long are you going to keep wallowing in your own fail before this occurs to you?

 

[Kalam]

Kalam since you are the voice of Islam here please just answer and stop trying to obfuscate.

My posts are clear. Your poor reading comprehension doesn't imply any sort of obfuscation on my part. Sorry...

 

[chanel]

No they are not Kalam. You refer to "context" and "end notes" that not only non-Muslims cannot understand, and I imagine most Muslims don't either.

I believe you stated that only faithful Muslims who understand Arabic can truly understand what is written in the Koran. Does that include Madeline?

 

[Kalam]

There are over a dozen translatiions on Kalams link.

That would be Mr. Fitnah's link. He likes to quote himself when he gets lonely.

Why do you believe Mr Fitnahs is the "wrong one"?

See one of my earlier posts where I explain why the translation is inaccurate.

Which translation does your local mosque ascribe to?

No clue.

How many of those faithful Muslims read the "end notes"?

Anybody who wants to gain insight into the precise meaning of the Qur'an and the circumstances surrounding its revelation will consult tafaseer.

 

[chanel]

Those questions were for Madeline.

 

[Kalam]

No they are not Kalam. You refer to "context" and "end notes" that not only non-Muslims cannot understand, and I imagine most Muslims don't either.

If you point to a specific part of one of my posts that's giving you trouble, I'll try to break it down for you.

I believe you stated that only faithful Muslims who understand Arabic can truly understand what is written in the Koran. Does that include Madeline?

Does Madeline claim to "truly understand what is written in the Koran"?

 

[chanel]

Its close enough to get the gist .
Isnt it?

Nope.

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do. (Al-Anfal 8:39)

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

Fitnah does not mean "disbelief and polytheism," deen does not mean "worship," "If they cease..." does not refer to "worshipping (sic) others besides Allah," and a dhalim is not a "polytheist." The meaning is context-dependent and does not denote polytheists. Completely incorrect.

And if Allah had pleased, they would not have set up others (with Him). And We have not appointed thee a keeper over them, and thou art not placed in charge of them. And abuse not those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest, exceeding the limits, they abuse Allah through ignorance. Thus to every people have We made their deeds fair-seeming; then to their Lord is their return so He will inform them of what they did... so leave them alone with what they forge -- and that the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter may incline thereto, and that they may be pleased with it, and that they may earn what they are earning. - 6:106-113​

From your source concerning the verse I asked about,
8:39
[39-40] O Believers, fight with the disbelievers till there is no more mischief and the way of life prescribed by Allah is established in its entirety.31 Then if they desist from mischief, surely Allah beholds what they do, but if they give no heed, know it that Allah is your Protector, and He is the best of all protectors and helpers.

Do you not have access to the end notes?

Here the war aim of Islam, which had previously been declared in 11: 193, has been repeated. This aim has two aspects-- the negative and the positive. On the negative side, the aim of war is to abolish (fitnah), and on the positive, it is to establish Allah's Way completely and in its entirety. This is the only objective for which it is lawful, nay, obligatory for the believers to fight. There is no other object for which fighting is lawful, and it does not behoove the believers to resort to fighting for any other objective. (For fuller details, please see E.N.'s 204 and 205 of Al-Baqarah.)​

Those being the end notes that I quoted earlier in this thread and which you failed to acknowledge. You must realize that you completely ignore information that contradicts your plebeian interpretations even when that information is right in front of you. Is your dishonesty still a conscious act or has it become automatic out of habit?

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The word translated as "mischief" in 8:39 is فتنةٌ - fitnatun.

The word translated as "make mischief" in 2:11, the passage your quote references, is تفسد - tafasid.

Sorry; they aren't synonyms, nor do they come from the same root. Regarding 8:39, why don't we use Maududi's definition of the word which you ignored earlier?

"...it denotes that condition of society which is not safe and free for adoption of the way of Allah."​

Your post in bold.

 

[chanel]

No they are not Kalam. You refer to "context" and "end notes" that not only non-Muslims cannot understand, and I imagine most Muslims don't either.

If you point to a specific part of one of my posts that's giving you trouble, I'll try to break it down for you.

I believe you stated that only faithful Muslims who understand Arabic can truly understand what is written in the Koran. Does that include Madeline?

Does Madeline claim to "truly understand what is written in the Koran"?

Madeline claims that Mr. Fitnah is completely wrong in his intepretation. How can someone completely discredit another's opinion without having any understanding on the subject?

 

[Si modo]

Madeline claims that Mr. Fitnah is completely wrong in his intepretation. How can someone completely discredit another's opinion without having any understanding on the subject?

Exactly. And she does it in multiple threads of her creation. Hopeless spamming.