Disband the MPD does not necessarily mean No Police

[Cecilie1200]

My city decided it could get by without any animal control officers. Inside 3 months they were desperate to fill the positions as feral cats were swinging from the lamp posts.

. . . The visual that popped up in my head, though.

 

[Cecilie1200]

DEFANG the police by abolishing their unions.

First time you've said something I agree with. It's odd, though, because I could swear the left has always championed unions, and claimed that conservatives were eeeeevil for opposing public-sector unions like police unions.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Indeed, no one advocates for ‘disbanding’ the MPD.

What’s being proposed is to replace management and administration, not ‘eliminate’ sworn officers from performing routine patrol duty, responding to emergencies, and protecting public safety.

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

Derp....
By looking at how other municipalities have done this in the past like the OP said.

Well, y'all go look at it, decide how you want to do it, and THEN come back and start making demands. Personally, I don't want to hear your demands to disband police departments until you've got the details nailed down and can answer questions.

 

[task0778]

Talking about the Minneapolis City Council here, surely they know they have to have some kind of security, but what? Some 8 years ago, Camden NJ was not a good place to live. Consider:

Camden NJ has thrice been named the most dangerous city in America. Camden suffered not only from high crime but from poor policing under a rigid union contract. Jim Epstein described the situation in 2014:

Camden’s old city-run police force abused its power and abrogated its duties. It took Camden cops one hour on average to respond to 911 calls, or more than six times the national average. They didn’t show up for work 30 percent of the time, and an inordinate number of Camden police were working desk jobs. A union contract required the city to entice officers with extra pay to get them to accept crime-fighting shifts outside regular business hours. Last year, the city paid $3.5 million in damages to 88 citizens who saw their convictions overturned because of planted evidence, fabricated reports, and other forms of police misconduct.

In 2012, the murder rate in Camden was about five times that of neighboring Philadelphia—and about 18 times the murder rate in New York City.

In May of 2013, however, the entire police department was disbanded nullifying the union contract and an entirely new county police department was put into place.


Which leaves me with a question: first, can Minneapolis legally disband the MPD, thereby nullifying the police union contract? Surely there will be a court battle over that, unions do not go quietly into the night. Union-busting ain't legal, y'know? Camden, New Jersey did it in 2012, but I'm not too sure if the same thing can happen in 2020 in Minnesota. Would the Minnesota courts allow it? As large as Minneapolis is relative to Hinnepin County, I don't know that they can shift all the policing responsibilities onto the county. I imagine they'd have to contract out as much of the policing services to contractors and sub-contractors as they could. There are 2 good reason for doing that: 1) it's a lot cheaper to pay a contractor over a union cop, due to all the benefits, and 2) you fire a contractor just like that, no union to fight for him. The contractor could sue of course, but pretty much on his own dime.

It can be done, the military has been doing it for years, reducing the number of active duty people and hiring civilian contractors to do the same damn thing. I know that cuz I did it myself, walked out the door as an active duty USAF Chief and went back to work doing the same thing as a civvy, albeit not as a supervisor. You'd be surprised how much money you can save IF you can get rid of that damn union. By laying off the officers and rehiring them as county employees, Camden was able to slash officer pay and cut benefits roughly in half. In all, average per officer costs were trimmed from $182,168 to $99,605, according to county figures.


BUT - Minneapolis ain't Camden. In NJ, the state had to pony up a lot of money to get that new operation going and that wasn't anywhere near the amount of what Minneapolis would need. I highly doubt the federal gov't will help financially, unless maybe Biden or a democrat gets elected into the WH. I guess it's doable, but it sure as hell won't be easy or cheap. And frankly, the Dems do not have a good record managing big projects successfully.

Let me just put it this way: until someone advocating "disband the Minneapolis police" can explain to me what their alternative plan actually is, I'm not planning to help them out by filling in the blanks for them.

Well, the Minneapolis police chief broke off negotiations with the police union, which I'm sure were going nowhere. I don't know how the city of Minneapolis can do anything until and unless they can legally dissolve that union and reorganize their public safety and security depts. Or at least significantly reduce the power that union has. I have heard nothing about the legalities involved, there's bound to be a court battle cuz that union is not going to quietly go away. They might need some help from the state legislature and the governor, and who knows how that'll work out. Public unions have quite a strangle hold on many states, I don't know the specifics of the situation in Minnesota about that.

 

[Vastator]

Getting rid of municipal police departments could very well be one of the best solutions. Rather than having mayors or councils appointing their chief law enforcement officers, and those officers being beholden to mayors, and council members... They could instead cede the duties to the county sheriff who is beholden to the voting public, and whose performance can be supported, or dismissed at the voting booth. Doing so would restore some of the power back to the people to decide how they want to be policed.

 

[task0778]

Getting rid of municipal police departments could very well be one of the best solutions. Rather than having mayors or councils appointing their chief law enforcement officers, and those officers being beholden to mayors, and council members... They could instead cede the duties to the county sheriff who is beholden to the voting public, and whose performance can be supported, or dismissed at the voting booth. Doing so would restore some of the power back to the people to decide how they want to be policed.

In Texas, the Governor, Mayor, City Council, Police Chief, and District Attorney are all elected reps. We also elect a County Sheriff and District Judges, all of which is a good thing cuz the people can vote them out of office if they ain't doing a good enough job. I do think there should be an independent organization that determines if police misconduct has occurred and recommends the appropriate action, and the head of that office should also be elected. To me, it's ultimately rests with the voters to keep their elected reps accountable and if we don't do it then the consequences are on us.

I do like the idea of using other people for certain duties where a uniformed and armed police person isn't needed. So reorganizing and reforming what used to be police functions might be wise and cost-effective. But at the end of the day, somebody with a badge and a gun has to confront the bad guys, some of whom will not go quietly.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Indeed, no one advocates for ‘disbanding’ the MPD.

What’s being proposed is to replace management and administration, not ‘eliminate’ sworn officers from performing routine patrol duty, responding to emergencies, and protecting public safety.

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

Derp....
By looking at how other municipalities have done this in the past like the OP said.

Well, y'all go look at it, decide how you want to do it, and THEN come back and start making demands. Personally, I don't want to hear your demands to disband police departments until you've got the details nailed down and can answer questions.

Well, y'all go look at it, decide how you want to do it, and THEN come back and start making demands. Personally, I don't want to hear your demands to disband police departments until you've got the details nailed down and can answer questions.

I have made no such demands, dope.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Indeed, no one advocates for ‘disbanding’ the MPD.

What’s being proposed is to replace management and administration, not ‘eliminate’ sworn officers from performing routine patrol duty, responding to emergencies, and protecting public safety.

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

How the hell would you know what it means when the city council themselves can't even define what they mean, Baghdad Bob?

Derp....
By looking at how other municipalities have done this in the past like the OP said.

Well, y'all go look at it, decide how you want to do it, and THEN come back and start making demands. Personally, I don't want to hear your demands to disband police departments until you've got the details nailed down and can answer questions.

Well, y'all go look at it, decide how you want to do it, and THEN come back and start making demands. Personally, I don't want to hear your demands to disband police departments until you've got the details nailed down and can answer questions.

I have made no such demands, dope.

Yeah, it's all about you personally.

You're trying to defend the BS being spouted by those demanding to defund the police, and explain how it "doesn't really mean" whatever-the-fuck. Then, when someone responds, you suddenly want to make it ONLY about what YOU said, how DARE anyone think that what was said by the people you're defending matters?

Fuck you, Jack. Either you're explaining why they're not wrong, and their words are relevant; or their words are irrelevant, in which case your whole fucking post is meaningless blather with no point in existing.

Take your pick.