Did Blinken just announce WWIII?

[Catsnmeters]

Lolwhut?

Thanks for proving you don't know shit

Spell check is now your arguement.

White flag noted.

Have a good day.

 

[Catsnmeters]

If the Europeans that were a party to the Minsk accords, had lived up to, and forced Kyiv to live up to their end? There would have been no war.

However, they wanted to force the eastern separatists up against a wall, and force Russia's hand, they have admitted as much about the Minsk accords. They have also admitted that they don't think much about the rights of the folks in the east or in Crimea either.

Both Merkel and Macron admitted, they were only using Minsk as a stalling tactic, to prepare for war. . . SO? If they knew they were getting ready for it? It was only a matter of crossing the red lines and provoking Russia, wasn't it?

Leaked phone call reveals fiery exchange between Putin, Macron days before Ukraine war

French President Emmanuel Macron and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin had an intense argument over the phone about Ukraine just four days before Moscow’s forces invaded the country.

nypost.com

". . Putin then took issue with Zelensky’s apparent refusal to negotiate with pro-Kremlin Ukrainian separatists, which infuriated the French president and prompted him to exclaim in audible frustration: “I don’t know where your lawyer learned law!”

Un Président, l'Europe et la guerre

Le 1er janvier 2022, la France prend la présidence du Conseil de l'Union européenne. En entamant son mandat le président français entend pousser de nombreuses réformes auprès de ses partenaires. Mais la guerre en Ukraine bouleverse ses plans. L'Europe, stupéfaite, doit alors affronter sur son...

www.france.tv

Macron and Putin negotiated about Ukraine a while ago​

(This phone call is between Putin and Macron, four days before the invasion, taken from the above linked documentary.)


This is, IMO, is an eye opener. I think we learn more about Putin and Macron in this short exchange than years of B.S. propaganda from ours or their media. . .

How did it get out? I can't even begin to speculate. I believe it was copied/ripped from that documentary linked above.



. . . so. . . we'll post it here, b/c y'all know, regardless of biases, I'm all about keeping folks informed.

It's Macrons fault Russia invaded Ukraine.

Is that your excuse for supporting Putin?

 

[MisterBeale]

It's Macrons fault Russia invaded Ukraine.

First of all, no. . . it is not. I think I have more than proved, to anyone willing to digest the information I have put on this site, it is an internal regional dispute.

Now. . . Have the west interfered, and meddled in that dispute? Yup. Has Russia? Of course, you only need to read the history of these two peoples.


. . . the Ukrainians are as different and separate from the Russians, as say. . . the Welsh, Scottish, or Irish are from the English.

Or. . . The Basq are form the Spanish. This is an internal ethnic dispute by clans/tribes with several millennia of history. They are different, but very close kin.

I'm not sure where the other great powers get off having the arrogance to believe, that they have the same right to get involved here, as the Russians do, TBH.

Is that your excuse for supporting Putin?

My unwillingness to want to have my nation involved in something that is not our business, and looks increasing likely to lead to the end of all life on the planet? Is not support for Putin.

 

[TheYellowKing]

Spell check is now your arguement.

White flag noted.

Have a good day.

Not my fault you're an incoherent mess of psychobabble

Correct, your concession is noted

 

[Catsnmeters]

First of all, no. . . it is not. I think I have more than proved, to anyone willing to digest the information I have put on this site, it is an internal regional dispute.

Now. . . Have the west interfered, and meddled in that dispute? Yup. Has Russia? Of course, you only need to read the history of these two peoples.


. . . the Ukrainians are as different and separate from the Russians, as say. . . the Welsh, Scottish, or Irish are from the English.

Or. . . The Basq are form the Spanish. This is an internal ethnic dispute by clans/tribes with several millennia of history. They are different, but very close kin.

I'm not sure where the other great powers get off having the arrogance to believe, that they have the same right to get involved here, as the Russians do, TBH.




My unwillingness to want to have my nation involved in something that is not our business, and looks increasing likely to lead to the end of all life on the planet? Is not support for Putin.

And that proves my original point. The fear tactics of Russia are shaping the opinions of fearful Americans.

 

[SavannahMann]

Is he not correct?

". . . Therefore, modern Ukraine is entirely the product of the Soviet era. We know and remember well that it was shaped – for a significant part – on the lands of historical Russia. To make sure of that, it is enough to look at the boundaries of the lands reunited with the Russian state in the 17th century and the territory of the Ukrainian SSR when it left the Soviet Union.. . ."

The people of Russia? The people of Ukraine? They have the same history, and the same culture. . . just as Americans and the British do. It is nuts that they are at war in the modern era. This is due to machinations of the west, the crown, Brussels, and D.C.

There never was a modern Ukrainian nation state, this? Is true, it is not false. Everyone, had only ever referred to it as.. . "the Ukraine," before the 1990's. Who the hell are you trying to bullshit here?

View attachment 928363

All I know, is that this shit is no more our business, than the stuff that goes on over here, is any Russian or Ukrainian's business.

The Kievan-Rus: Ukraine's Viking Founders - DOCUMENTARY​

A Brief History of Ukraine​

A Brief History of Ukraine

by James Corbett corbettreport.com February 19, 2023 The full-on hysteria that surrounded the announcement of Tucker Carlson's arrival in Moscow and his subsequent interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin—including Hillary Clinton branding Carlson a "useful idiot"

corbettreport.substack.com

". . . Prince Volodomyr, as he is known in Ukraine, is hailed as one of the founding fathers of the Ukrainian nation: he consolidated rule over Kyiv and Novgorod, ruled over the Rus' from Kyiv before Moscow was even built, and Christianized the nation. But on the 1,000th anniversary of his death in 2015, Russia celebrated his legacy as one of the founding fathers of Russia by hosting nationwide events and erecting a statue in his honour in Moscow, a city that didn't even exist during Vladimir's lifetime.

Or take Yaroslav the Wise, one of Vladimir/Volodymyr's sons and the man who ruled as Grand Prince of Kiev (or is that Kyiv?) from 1019 to 1054. Like his father, Yaroslav is venerated as a founding father of both Ukraine and Russia. He expanded the Kievan Rus' territory to its greatest extent, introduced the first legal code of the Rus' people and promoted public education. And, like his father, he has become a point of vicious political contention between Ukrainian and Russian patriots.

The tale of Yaroslav's legacy is especially bizarre, centering as it does on the mystery of what happened to his bones, which were preserved for centuries at St. Sophia Cathedral in Kyiv. The crypt was opened in 1939 and the skeletons inside—one male and one female, presumed to be the remains of Yaroslav and his second wife—were shipped to Leningrad and carbon dated to the 11th century. The bones were then returned to Kyiv and supposedly reinstalled in the crypt in 1964. But, when the crypt was reopened in 2009, Yaroslav's bones were missing.

What would seem like a strange and macabre historical mystery has predictably turned into a major political row. Ukrainian authorities are determined to recover the remains (which may or may not reside in New York) in a bid to reclaim Ukrainian history and to prevent Russians from, as Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba puts it, "instrumentaliz[ing] the history of Rus in order to serve modern Putinist myths and illegitimate territorial claims."

I could go on, but you get the point by now. Everything in the history of Ukraine is a bone of contention, a potential weapon in the ongoing war between the various factions seeking to control Ukraine and its peoples. . . "

Except we are a signatory of the Bucharest Memorandum.

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Now Russia violated that agreement. I’m reminded of 1914 when Germany invaded Belgium despite a treaty to never do so. When Britain declared War the German Foreign Minister asked. War? Over a piece of paper?

The paper was a solemn promise. An oath that the signatories would not break that peace.

The Memorandum isn’t the level of a treaty. I am well aware of that. But isn’t your word supposed to be good? Isn’t your word as a man, or a nation, supposed to be honored?

If Russia can so easily break one promise, why would anyone trust them ever again? Why should they? Oh if we give up on Ukraine we have their word they won’t take any others. We can trust them. This time.

If you do trust them you should show it. Get the word sucker tattooed on your forehead so everyone knows you are a fool.

 

[MisterBeale]

And that proves my original point. The fear tactics of Russia are shaping the opinions of fearful Americans.

I don't know why I bother with folks like you. I've already told you, you are dumb not to take their statements at face value. It has nothing to do with fear.

 

[MisterBeale]

Except we are a signatory of the Bucharest Memorandum.

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Now Russia violated that agreement. I’m reminded of 1914 when Germany invaded Belgium despite a treaty to never do so. When Britain declared War the German Foreign Minister asked. War? Over a piece of paper?

The paper was a solemn promise. An oath that the signatories would not break that peace.

The Memorandum isn’t the level of a treaty. I am well aware of that. But isn’t your word supposed to be good? Isn’t your word as a man, or a nation, supposed to be honored?

If Russia can so easily break one promise, why would anyone trust them ever again? Why should they? Oh if we give up on Ukraine we have their word they won’t take any others. We can trust them. This time.

If you do trust them you should show it. Get the word sucker tattooed on your forehead so everyone knows you are a fool.

You have a false reading of the Budapest Memorandum.

There is a reason they make that so hard to find. . . because of western ruling elite's spin masters have. . . well, not upheld their end. Hell, you don't even need to dig on that count, you can read that in point one of the memorandum.

The western foundations, and the clandestine intel. agencies working to make a coup in Ukraine, were a violation of Memorandum. I have already posted about the western powers meddling in Ukraine's internal politics.

We all know about the Nuland call. Or you should, you should have even seen her handing out cookies and John McCain giving a speech to them. C'mon, all that make this memorandum a joke to the eyes of the west. Hypocrisy much?

REMEMBER! Key here. . . is the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. Likewise, the western intelligence and pro-democracy foundations, interfered with Ukrainian civil society. . .


No one can ever actually produce a copy of the Budapest Memorandum. Only claims that security assurances are guaranteed. I maintain that comes with some caveats. Why?

Because the closest outline of that Memorandum I have yet dug up? Is this. . .

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting.

Primary Sources​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994

The Presidents of Ukraine, Russian Federation and United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom signed three memorandums (UN Document A/49/765) on December 5, 1994, with the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Through this...

web.archive.org

"Excerpt:

"Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the cold war, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,

Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English and Russian languages."

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting, Thank you!
Wayback Machine )


That makes no such guarantee of security in case of invasion, only it refers to using the following, which I maintain, is exactly the OPPOSITE, of escalating violent confrontation.


Source: Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars 1
Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe

http://insidethecoldwar.org/sites/default/files/documents/Helsinki%20Final%20Act%20August%201%2C%201975_1.pdf

Wayback Machine

". . . Accordingly, the participating States will refrain from any acts constituting a threat of force or
direct or indirect use of force against another participating State. Likewise they will refrain from
any manifestation of force for the purpose of inducing another participating State to renounce the
full exercise of its sovereign rights. Likewise they will also refrain in their mutual relations from
any act of reprisal by force.
No such threat or use of force will be employed as a means of settling disputes, or questions
likely to give rise to disputes, between them.. . . "

. . . now? If there had not been the violation by the west in the 2014 coup? And if the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe were still in force?

I am in definite agreement with you, that the Russian Federation violated the Budapest Memorandum, of this? There can be no doubt.

OTH? I do not believe this, in anyway obligates an escalation of European conflict, by pitting nuclear armed powers against each other. Given the historical experience of European interlocking alliances through WWI, & WWII, and that Russia even signed the Budapest Memorandum. . . if you go back and watch the press conference with U.S. President Clinton, and Ukraine President Leonid Kravchuk upon completion of these negotiations, you see how President Clinton dodges the question about any guarantee of providing security against any future Russian imperial designs on Crimea.

So? What are we to make of THAT? Either the west had this nefarious agenda in mind from the start, as hold over from operation Gladio . . . or??????

Time stamp: 23:11 for the question if you do not want to listen to the whole conference.

President Clinton's News Conference w/ Pres. Kravchuk (1994)​

I've heard, a few times, folks refer to this memorandum. . . which has, in fact frustrated the Russians, because, time and time again, the west has meddled.

For instance. . .. EXAMPLE

 

[SavannahMann]

You have a false reading of the Budapest Memorandum.

There is a reason they make that so hard to find. . . because of western ruling elite's spin masters have. . . well, not upheld their end. Hell, you don't even need to dig on that count, you can read that in point one of the memorandum.

The western foundations, and the clandestine intel. agencies working to make a coup in Ukraine, were a violation of Memorandum. I have already posted about the western powers meddling in Ukraine's internal politics.

We all know about the Nuland call. Or you should, you should have even seen her handing out cookies and John McCain giving a speech to them. C'mon, all that make this memorandum a joke to the eyes of the west. Hypocrisy much?

REMEMBER! Key here. . . is the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. Likewise, the western intelligence and pro-democracy foundations, interfered with Ukrainian civil society. . .


No one can ever actually produce a copy of the Budapest Memorandum. Only claims that security assurances are guaranteed. I maintain that comes with some caveats. Why?

Because the closest outline of that Memorandum I have yet dug up? Is this. . .

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting.

Primary Sources​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994

The Presidents of Ukraine, Russian Federation and United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom signed three memorandums (UN Document A/49/765) on December 5, 1994, with the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Through this...

web.archive.org

"Excerpt:

"Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the cold war, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,

Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English and Russian languages."

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting, Thank you!
Wayback Machine )


That makes no such guarantee of security in case of invasion, only it refers to using the following, which I maintain, is exactly the OPPOSITE, of escalating violent confrontation.


Source: Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars 1
Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe

http://insidethecoldwar.org/sites/default/files/documents/Helsinki%20Final%20Act%20August%201%2C%201975_1.pdf

Wayback Machine

". . . Accordingly, the participating States will refrain from any acts constituting a threat of force or
direct or indirect use of force against another participating State. Likewise they will refrain from
any manifestation of force for the purpose of inducing another participating State to renounce the
full exercise of its sovereign rights. Likewise they will also refrain in their mutual relations from
any act of reprisal by force.
No such threat or use of force will be employed as a means of settling disputes, or questions
likely to give rise to disputes, between them.. . . "

. . . now? If there had not been the violation by the west in the 2014 coup? And if the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe were still in force?

I am in definite agreement with you, that the Russian Federation violated the Budapest Memorandum, of this? There can be no doubt.

OTH? I do not believe this, in anyway obligates an escalation of European conflict, by pitting nuclear armed powers against each other. Given the historical experience of European interlocking alliances through WWI, & WWII, and that Russia even signed the Budapest Memorandum. . . if you go back and watch the press conference with U.S. President Clinton, and Ukraine President Leonid Kravchuk upon completion of these negotiations, you see how President Clinton dodges the question about any guarantee of providing security against any future Russian imperial designs on Crimea.

So? What are we to make of THAT? Either the west had this nefarious agenda in mind from the start, as hold over from operation Gladio . . . or??????

Time stamp: 23:11 for the question if you do not want to listen to the whole conference.

President Clinton's News Conference w/ Pres. Kravchuk (1994)​

I've heard, a few times, folks refer to this memorandum. . . which has, in fact frustrated the Russians, because, time and time again, the west has meddled.

For instance. . .. EXAMPLE
View attachment 928392

You are mistaken. It wasn’t western intel agencies. It was a progression of events. Logical and predictable.

First you have to remember the animosity that exists. While Russia was quick to point out the long cultural links, the truth is that Ukraine was little more than a vassal to the Russians under the Soviet system. And while the Russians may view themselves as beneficial overlords, the subjects may not see them the same way.

As the people tested the water in a manner of speaking, they found they wanted more. The west had always been the land of miracles.

True story. A news story was done about poor in America. Their lives. And this news report was given Russian voiceovers and broadcast on Soviet TV. The Soviet people were shocked. Poor in America were fat. They had televisions. Plural. They had cars. They had luxury items only the most senior politburo people had. Things of unimaginable value.

So is it any wonder why the people of Ukraine wanted to have closer ties to the West? We didn’t need to trick them, manipulate them, or pull off some clever bullshit. All we had to be, was be us.

The West represented opportunity and a quality of life that didn’t exist in the Soviet. And while it is gone, many still remember and read the books. They need only look at Chernobyl to see the genius of Russia. A power plant that was able to become a nuclear bomb. Look at the women from Eastern Europe who go abroad to make their fortunes as hookers.

When Franklin objected to me mocking Russia saying the hookers were certainly suffering, I looked it up. Russian Hookers in Moscow were charging $60 an hour. An hour.

Girls who looked no better were making $3,500 an hour banging the Governor of New York more than a decade ago. Now, what is the capitalist approach? If you are going to get fucked, get paid. Don’t settle for cheap. Get paid all you can.

Russia wanted to remain as overlords. Ukraine really wanted independence. The people wanted it.

 

[TheYellowKing]

You have a false reading of the Budapest Memorandum.

There is a reason they make that so hard to find. . . because of western ruling elite's spin masters have. . . well, not upheld their end. Hell, you don't even need to dig on that count, you can read that in point one of the memorandum.

The western foundations, and the clandestine intel. agencies working to make a coup in Ukraine, were a violation of Memorandum. I have already posted about the western powers meddling in Ukraine's internal politics.

We all know about the Nuland call. Or you should, you should have even seen her handing out cookies and John McCain giving a speech to them. C'mon, all that make this memorandum a joke to the eyes of the west. Hypocrisy much?

REMEMBER! Key here. . . is the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe. Likewise, the western intelligence and pro-democracy foundations, interfered with Ukrainian civil society. . .


No one can ever actually produce a copy of the Budapest Memorandum. Only claims that security assurances are guaranteed. I maintain that comes with some caveats. Why?

Because the closest outline of that Memorandum I have yet dug up? Is this. . .

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting.

Primary Sources​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994​

Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994

The Presidents of Ukraine, Russian Federation and United States of America, and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom signed three memorandums (UN Document A/49/765) on December 5, 1994, with the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Through this...

web.archive.org

"Excerpt:

"Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the cold war, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,

Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State;

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English and Russian languages."

(But now I notice, someone on the wiki, since last I checked, has found a link. . .interesting, Thank you!
Wayback Machine )


That makes no such guarantee of security in case of invasion, only it refers to using the following, which I maintain, is exactly the OPPOSITE, of escalating violent confrontation.


Source: Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars 1
Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe

http://insidethecoldwar.org/sites/default/files/documents/Helsinki%20Final%20Act%20August%201%2C%201975_1.pdf

Wayback Machine

". . . Accordingly, the participating States will refrain from any acts constituting a threat of force or
direct or indirect use of force against another participating State. Likewise they will refrain from
any manifestation of force for the purpose of inducing another participating State to renounce the
full exercise of its sovereign rights. Likewise they will also refrain in their mutual relations from
any act of reprisal by force.
No such threat or use of force will be employed as a means of settling disputes, or questions
likely to give rise to disputes, between them.. . . "

. . . now? If there had not been the violation by the west in the 2014 coup? And if the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe were still in force?

I am in definite agreement with you, that the Russian Federation violated the Budapest Memorandum, of this? There can be no doubt.

OTH? I do not believe this, in anyway obligates an escalation of European conflict, by pitting nuclear armed powers against each other. Given the historical experience of European interlocking alliances through WWI, & WWII, and that Russia even signed the Budapest Memorandum. . . if you go back and watch the press conference with U.S. President Clinton, and Ukraine President Leonid Kravchuk upon completion of these negotiations, you see how President Clinton dodges the question about any guarantee of providing security against any future Russian imperial designs on Crimea.

So? What are we to make of THAT? Either the west had this nefarious agenda in mind from the start, as hold over from operation Gladio . . . or??????

Time stamp: 23:11 for the question if you do not want to listen to the whole conference.

President Clinton's News Conference w/ Pres. Kravchuk (1994)​

I've heard, a few times, folks refer to this memorandum. . . which has, in fact frustrated the Russians, because, time and time again, the west has meddled.

For instance. . .. EXAMPLE
View attachment 928392

You have put on a clinic in here today. Absolute master class

 

[TheYellowKing]

You are mistaken. It wasn’t western intel agencies. It was a progression of events. Logical and predictable.

First you have to remember the animosity that exists. While Russia was quick to point out the long cultural links, the truth is that Ukraine was little more than a vassal to the Russians under the Soviet system. And while the Russians may view themselves as beneficial overlords, the subjects may not see them the same way.

As the people tested the water in a manner of speaking, they found they wanted more. The west had always been the land of miracles.

True story. A news story was done about poor in America. Their lives. And this news report was given Russian voiceovers and broadcast on Soviet TV. The Soviet people were shocked. Poor in America were fat. They had televisions. Plural. They had cars. They had luxury items only the most senior politburo people had. Things of unimaginable value.

So is it any wonder why the people of Ukraine wanted to have closer ties to the West? We didn’t need to trick them, manipulate them, or pull off some clever bullshit. All we had to be, was be us.

The West represented opportunity and a quality of life that didn’t exist in the Soviet. And while it is gone, many still remember and read the books. They need only look at Chernobyl to see the genius of Russia. A power plant that was able to become a nuclear bomb. Look at the women from Eastern Europe who go abroad to make their fortunes as hookers.

When Franklin objected to me mocking Russia saying the hookers were certainly suffering, I looked it up. Russian Hookers in Moscow were charging $60 an hour. An hour.

Girls who looked no better were making $3,500 an hour banging the Governor of New York more than a decade ago. Now, what is the capitalist approach? If you are going to get fucked, get paid. Don’t settle for cheap. Get paid all you can.

Russia wanted to remain as overlords. Ukraine really wanted independence. The people wanted it.

So the West (Obama, Clinton, McCain, Nuland) helped with the Maidan Coup and your retort is Russian Hookers

Holy fuck

 

[MisterBeale]

You have put on a clinic in here today. Absolute master class

I'm not into frivolity or propaganda on either side.

Nor the useless rhetoric and spin of these NPCs, who watch government and corporate media whoring for the Wall-street investment classes.

How many times, must Americans be yanked around by the political, cultural and financial elites, gaslighting them into gross & erroneous policy blunders, based on false narratives and lies?


I want to look at FACTS. And I want them linked and posted. Folks need to look at the receipts, and make up their own minds by looking at those receipts.

I haven't even posted Wikileaks files from the CIA yet, or the documented agreements the west had with Russia/USSR at the end of the cold war . . . it isn't even necessary.

I've looked at it all.

IMO? The folks running the corporate and government media? Well, they can continue this information war, but the west's all volunteer military wont be up to this foolishness, anymore than it was up to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Less so in fact. And all these key-board chicken-hawks are fooling themselves if they bleev otherwise. Ain't no one going to go help Ukraine with their fascist project of civil war / nation cleansing. . .


And in the meantime? As usual, our corrupt Senators and congress reps. are going to continue destroying our economy over this type of foolishness, they always need some MIC black-hole for the Pentagon budget boondoggle.







All I get is jingoism and fairy tale rhetoric in return. Nothing of substance.

 

[gipper]

Wow. I'm flattered. You've read all my posts.


I know that Russia started the conflict by invading Ukraine.

It's pretty obvious.

It’s amazing to me the number of posters who readily and willingly admit in their posts how little they know. They merely parrot establishment talking points unknowingly exposing themselves.

 

[SavannahMann]

So the West (Obama, Clinton, McCain, Nuland) helped with the Maidan Coup and your retort is Russian Hookers

Holy fuck

No. I used hookers to show the advantages of the west. The people wanted to align with the west.

 

[JWBooth]

That’s what the CIA assured Ukraine in 2022

It's on my bingo card

 

[Catsnmeters]

It's on my bingo card
View attachment 928489

I was wondering about that. I saw a headline where the CIA refuted evidence from Comer so I expected right wing backlash.

That was pretty fast though.

Good job.

 

[Catsnmeters]

I don't know why I bother with folks like you. I've already told you, you are dumb not to take their statements at face value. It has nothing to do with fear.

Wow. That meme really did the trick.

We should let Russia invade Europe, country by country because Putin might get mad if we interfere.

I'm scared.

 

[gipper]

Wow. That meme really did the trick.

We should let Russia invade Europe, country by country because Putin might get mad if we interfere.

I'm scared.

So, you think Putin’s army sucks and is losing to Ukraine and you think he intends to invade Europe. How do you square these two positions in your mind?

I bet you think the vax is safe and effective, Iraq had WMD, and Putin is another Hitler.

 

[TheYellowKing]

No. I used hookers to show the advantages of the west. The people wanted to align with the west.

So the West advantage is Hookers? Hahahahahaha

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It's on my bingo card
View attachment 928489