Democrats will go it alone on healthcare

[JakeStarkey]

divecon, what you just wrote is perhaps the most idiotic statement of the entire week.

if you had a fucking clue, you wouldnt have said that
but you did and proved you are a fucking moron and dont understand that most europeans live a much healthier lifestyle than most americans

You have just demonstrated that you have an opinion but no brain.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The moderate and conservative Dems are working their deals to get what they want, and when the Dems come out from behind closed doors the debate is over. They will pass health care reform, there will be a form of government payer, Americans will eat it up, and the Republican Party will die.

 

[KittenKoder]

divecon, what you just wrote is perhaps the most idiotic statement of the entire week.

if you had a fucking clue, you wouldnt have said that
but you did and proved you are a fucking moron and dont understand that most europeans live a much healthier lifestyle than most americans

You have just demonstrated that you have an opinion but no brain.

Quite the opposite actually.

 

[DiveCon]

divecon, what you just wrote is perhaps the most idiotic statement of the entire week.

if you had a fucking clue, you wouldnt have said that
but you did and proved you are a fucking moron and dont understand that most europeans live a much healthier lifestyle than most americans

You have just demonstrated that you have an opinion but no brain.

and you have demonstrated that you have no clue about the rest of the world

 

[DiveCon]

if you had a fucking clue, you wouldnt have said that
but you did and proved you are a fucking moron and dont understand that most europeans live a much healthier lifestyle than most americans

You have just demonstrated that you have an opinion but no brain.

Quite the opposite actually.

he'll never get it
hes too partisan to open his mind wide enough for simple concepts to get in

 

[Emma]

Yep and a much higher than expected unemployment rate is proof that is working.

You insult yourself with every post that you write.

Nice try, Pilgrim.

We are very lucky we didn't have another Great Depression. Now confidence is returning, but we still have a long way to go.

Why 10% unemployment when the stimulus was all about jobs, jobs and more jobs? The stimulus has made things worse, it has tied up capital that could have been used to in the private sector. If the private sector had more capital to work with unemployment would be under 8%. Instead we have a government padding welfare.

But (again) how much of the stimulus money that was approved has actually been distributed?

 

[DiveCon]

Nice try, Pilgrim.

We are very lucky we didn't have another Great Depression. Now confidence is returning, but we still have a long way to go.

Why 10% unemployment when the stimulus was all about jobs, jobs and more jobs? The stimulus has made things worse, it has tied up capital that could have been used to in the private sector. If the private sector had more capital to work with unemployment would be under 8%. Instead we have a government padding welfare.

But (again) how much of the stimulus money that was approved has actually been distributed?

do you realize you are making the point that there was never a "crisis" and the "stimulus" was never needed
and that the vote shouldnt have been rushed

 

[Emma]

Go tell that you to the people who live longer, pay less for health care, and have better access -- the French, the English, the Australians, the Dutch, the Canadians, and another dozen countries whose populations are in better health than ours for less expense.

The government control is far less dangerous to our collective health as a country than the health insurance industry. Guys, the corporatists not only despise you, they hate you for every dollar they unwilling spend on you.

Health care reform is coming, and the health insurance industry can "wah" all it wants.

prove they live longer because of their healthcare and not more because of lifestyle differences

The two are interconnected. The fact that we are by far the most obese country in the world is a major factor and is related to both. I'm not sure how you can separate the two in such a way as to prove which has the most impact, although common sense would tell you that less access to health care leads to a higher death rate due to lack of (or inadequate/delayed) treatment of manageable conditions and illnesses. Diet, exercise, habits, socioeconomic status, stresses... all 'lifestyle', but all part of a preventative/maintenance approach to healthcare.

I found a terrific resource; I don't have time today to read through it all (there's a lot of data, probably take some time to slog through it all anyway).

Here's a brief overview, with links to their other studies and programs:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/63/18/43305158.pdf

 

[Emma]

Why 10% unemployment when the stimulus was all about jobs, jobs and more jobs? The stimulus has made things worse, it has tied up capital that could have been used to in the private sector. If the private sector had more capital to work with unemployment would be under 8%. Instead we have a government padding welfare.

But (again) how much of the stimulus money that was approved has actually been distributed?

do you realize you are making the point that there was never a "crisis" and the "stimulus" was never needed
and that the vote shouldnt have been rushed

Not at all. I'm wondering how much has been distributed (I truly don't know the answer to that). I am pissed (as I posted above) at where the money is going. If what j says is correct (and I really have no reason to doubt him) if the majority of what has been distributed thus far is going to prop up state government budgets, I suppose it can be argued that helps the economy, but it's not where I'd want to see the majority of the funds to go. Like I said, I'd prefer that the feds hadn't given it out to the states (just look at the thread on what LA is doing) but rather put the money directly into jobs and public works projects, and cut out the middle-man, so to speak.

 

[Vast LWC]

Attack the source, big surprise...
About 1,000 jobs in Colorado are linked to federal stimulus - The Denver Post
"I have no idea where that number came from," he said. "I think it was pin the tail on the donkey."

Denver post good enough for you?

The white house predictions of unemployment, pre-stimulus....
View attachment 7962
The shedding of jobs....
View attachment 7963

But I am sure these sources will somehow be partisian as well........

If you post a source, and it turns out to be a ridiculous one, OF COURSE I'm going to attack it.

Why would any rational person NOT question a source when the "facts" they produce work in their best interests?

As far as this post goes, nope, I do not question it. Good source.

Of course it doesn't really prove the previous points, now does it?

It does present a separate but related interesting point though.

As Emma pointed out, the stimulus money is not reaching it's intended targets. I think that needs some serious looking into.

Why has the stimulus money not been distributed, as promised?

Is someone intentionally creating roadblocks for political or financial gain? Or is there some serious red tape holding up the works?

 

[jreeves]

Attack the source, big surprise...
About 1,000 jobs in Colorado are linked to federal stimulus - The Denver Post
"I have no idea where that number came from," he said. "I think it was pin the tail on the donkey."

Denver post good enough for you?

The white house predictions of unemployment, pre-stimulus....
View attachment 7962
The shedding of jobs....
View attachment 7963

But I am sure these sources will somehow be partisian as well........

If you post a source, and it turns out to be a ridiculous one, OF COURSE I'm going to attack it.

Why would any rational person NOT question a source when the "facts" they produce work in their best interests?

As far as this post goes, nope, I do not question it. Good source.

Of course it doesn't really prove the previous points, now does it?

It does present a separate but related interesting point though.

As Emma pointed out, the stimulus money is not reaching it's intended targets. I think that needs some serious looking into.

Why has the stimulus money not been distributed, as promised?

Is someone intentionally creating roadblocks for political or financial gain? Or is there some serious red tape holding up the works?

This is from your previous post...
"As long as the right-wing keeps blatantly lying about the health care bill, I will not accept anything they say at face value. So post the figures."

What isn't included in this....

ARRA News Service: Today in Washington D. C. - Aug 3, 2009 - Stimulus Fall Short; Do You Believe Them On Health Care?
Meanwhile, Americans are anxiously looking to Friday’s unemployment report to see how the economy is doing. It will also provide another opportunity to evaluate the Obama administration’s $787 billion economic stimulus bill. Already, though, it’s become clear that it has not lived up to the predictions the administration made at the time it was passed. As Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell said on “Meet the Press” recently, “The president said rush and spend it; pass it, we’ll hold unemployment to 8%, which now [it’s] pretty clear we’re going to 10, in my state it’s almost 11. By any measurable index, the stimulus package has been a failure.”

In June, Obama’s economic advisers predicted unemployment would remain at 8% or below through this year if the economic stimulus plan was approved. But, unemployment rose to a 26-year high of 9.5% in June. In January, Larry Summers, a key economic advisor to President Obama predicted the stimulus would create up to 4 million jobs. But over 3.3 million jobs have been lost this year. Even at the state level, there is little in the way of job creation. The Denver Post reported yesterday that, according to the White House, the stimulus was supposed to create 59,000 jobs in Colorado. But “state officials can link fewer than 1,000 new full-time-equivalent positions to stimulus spending.” Mark Cavanaugh, the director of Democrat Governor Bill Ritter’s economy recovery team, said of the estimated jobs number, ‘I have no idea where that number came from. . . . I think it was pin the tail on the donkey.”

that isn't included in either the graphs or the Denver Post article?

About 1,000 jobs in Colorado are linked to federal stimulus - The Denver Post
"I have no idea where that number came from," he said. "I think it was pin the tail on the donkey."

the graphs which back up the unemployment predictions and actual unemployment numbers.....

 

[jreeves]

Attack the source, big surprise...
About 1,000 jobs in Colorado are linked to federal stimulus - The Denver Post
"I have no idea where that number came from," he said. "I think it was pin the tail on the donkey."

Denver post good enough for you?

The white house predictions of unemployment, pre-stimulus....
View attachment 7962
The shedding of jobs....
View attachment 7963

But I am sure these sources will somehow be partisian as well........

If you post a source, and it turns out to be a ridiculous one, OF COURSE I'm going to attack it.

Why would any rational person NOT question a source when the "facts" they produce work in their best interests?

As far as this post goes, nope, I do not question it. Good source.

Of course it doesn't really prove the previous points, now does it?

It does present a separate but related interesting point though.

As Emma pointed out, the stimulus money is not reaching it's intended targets. I think that needs some serious looking into.

Why has the stimulus money not been distributed, as promised?

Is someone intentionally creating roadblocks for political or financial gain? Or is there some serious red tape holding up the works?

Because this administration has played the oldest game in politics, its called the Bait and Switch. You tell everyone that the stimulus package is about infrastructure, yet you spend very little on infrastructure and spend the vast majority to welfare programs.

 

[veritas]

Have they built the goddamn levee system for NO yet or is the Army Corps of Engineers still playing tiddly winks with man hole covers?!?!?!

The Dutch could have had it done a year ago for a tenth of what the bloated corps want to do with a greater track record of efficacy.........

 

[DiveCon]

Have they built the goddamn levee system for NO yet or is the Army Corps of Engineers still playing tiddly winks with man hole covers?!?!?!

The Dutch could have had it done a year ago for a tenth of what the bloated corps want to do with a greater track record of efficacy.........

well, had they actually used the money they were given on the leevies instead of other projects in the area(local officials) they would have had them BEFORE Katrina hit

 

[jreeves]

Have they built the goddamn levee system for NO yet or is the Army Corps of Engineers still playing tiddly winks with man hole covers?!?!?!

The Dutch could have had it done a year ago for a tenth of what the bloated corps want to do with a greater track record of efficacy.........

What's your point?

 

[Emma]

Because this administration has played the oldest game in politics, its called the Bait and Switch. You tell everyone that the stimulus package is about infrastructure, yet you spend very little on infrastructure and spend the vast majority to welfare programs.

Before I can blame the administration...

A few questions, if you know the answers I'd appreciate it.

I know that there WAS money in the stimulus bill earmarked for certain projects or *whatever*.

Was the money these states are spending to prop up their budgets and pay for their welfare programs specifically intended for that purpose? Or did the state have the leeway to decide where it would go? OR, was it worded in such a vague way that they could take advantage of it in that manner, even though it wasn't intended for that use? How much latitude did Congress give the states in determining the specifics of where to spend the money?

Also.

As far as money intended for infrastructure projects... how much of that has been distributed? And to which states and for what specific projects? How much of the total amount of the stimulus has been distributed?

 

[veritas]

Because this administration has played the oldest game in politics, its called the Bait and Switch. You tell everyone that the stimulus package is about infrastructure, yet you spend very little on infrastructure and spend the vast majority to welfare programs.

Before I can blame the administration...

A few questions, if you know the answers I'd appreciate it.

I know that there WAS money in the stimulus bill earmarked for certain projects or *whatever*.

Was the money these states are spending to prop up their budgets and pay for their welfare programs specifically intended for that purpose? Or did the state have the leeway to decide where it would go? OR, was it worded in such a vague way that they could take advantage of it in that manner, even though it wasn't intended for that use? How much latitude did Congress give the states in determining the specifics of where to spend the money?

Also.

As far as money intended for infrastructure projects... how much of that has been distributed? And to which states and for what specific projects? How much of the total amount of the stimulus has been distributed?

there oughtta be list.........

 

[DiveCon]

Because this administration has played the oldest game in politics, its called the Bait and Switch. You tell everyone that the stimulus package is about infrastructure, yet you spend very little on infrastructure and spend the vast majority to welfare programs.

Before I can blame the administration...

A few questions, if you know the answers I'd appreciate it.

I know that there WAS money in the stimulus bill earmarked for certain projects or *whatever*.

Was the money these states are spending to prop up their budgets and pay for their welfare programs specifically intended for that purpose? Or did the state have the leeway to decide where it would go? OR, was it worded in such a vague way that they could take advantage of it in that manner, even though it wasn't intended for that use? How much latitude did Congress give the states in determining the specifics of where to spend the money?

Also.

As far as money intended for infrastructure projects... how much of that has been distributed? And to which states and for what specific projects? How much of the total amount of the stimulus has been distributed?

there oughtta be list.........

that can happen when you dont READ what your about to vote for

 

[veritas]

Amounts went to the states with no specific requirements.

Soooooooo, the list would include initially, what states got what money.

Then as the states divvied out the cash, they could add to the list how much was spent on what.


I'm not in congress yet, divecon, are you suggesting you would support that? It's about an hour commute for me from here.....I might could swing it.

 

[DiveCon]

Amounts went to the states with no specific requirements.

Soooooooo, the list would include initially, what states got what money.

Then as the states divvied out the cash, they could add to the list how much was spent on what.


I'm not in congress yet, divecon, are you suggesting you would support that? It's about an hour commute for me from here.....I might could swing it.

you missed the point
they should have taken the time to READ the bill and put in protections against what has happened since most of the money was backended anyway


sheeesh, then you would know where the money is going and why