Cut Spending/Raise Taxes 4:1

[Listening]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

 

[Mr. H.]

I say the "rich" already pay more than a fair share of taxes.

 

[Listening]

I say the "rich" already pay more than a fair share of taxes.

First of all, numbers would be meaningful.

But let me disagree and say that "fair" does not exist in this world.

If the rich got rich without government help, I'd be less inclined.

I am going to add to my proposal that everyone pays a minimum of 2%...regardless. No tax breaks.

 

[Rozman]

I like the cut spending part of this proposal...

 

[oldfart]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

You have a sure fire way to trigger depression and triple the current deficit.

If you are serious, read the CBO reports on the baseline economic and fiscal projections and on scenarios to reduce the deficit. This assumes you have a serious interest in your own topic and are not merely trolling.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45304

 

[Missourian]

The ONLY way I'd even entertain backing this proposal in any way shape or form is if the cuts come first...

And I don't mean on paper...I mean a trigger that after one year of the cuts being implemented, the tax kicks in...if there are no reductions in actual spending...there is no tax increase.

How many times have we seen it the other way around...taxes increase with the promise of spending cuts, taxes go up but the cuts are never implemented.

And how about this to boot...if spending increases, taxes DECREASE.

 

[Listening]

The ONLY way I'd even entertain backing this proposal in any way shape or form is if the cuts come first...

And I don't mean on paper...I mean a trigger that after one year of the cuts being implemented, the tax kicks in...if there are no reductions in actual spending...there is no tax increase.

How many times have we seen it the other way around...taxes increase with the promise of spending cuts, taxes go up but the cuts are never implemented.

And how about this to boot...if spending increases, taxes DECREASE.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[boedicca]

Cut the spending. Forget the tax increases.

Instead, we should cut rates and get rid of the social engineering rewards system in the tax code.

 

[Listening]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

You have a sure fire way to trigger depression and triple the current deficit.

If you are serious, read the CBO reports on the baseline economic and fiscal projections and on scenarios to reduce the deficit. This assumes you have a serious interest in your own topic and are not merely trolling.

CBO's Major Recurring Reports - CBO

I am sure that if I got a few thousand dollars from the rich (in total) and really cut 4 times as much in spending (meaning that it would be in the order of magnitude of 0.000000001% of the budget)....nothing would happen.

So using terms like "sure fire" gets closer to trolling than anything.

Any proposal is just that and any discussion of the amounts are still to come.

I'll maybe try to read what the CBO has published but you already know my opinion of their work.

 

[Listening]

Cut the spending. Forget the tax increases.

Instead, we should cut rates and get rid of the social engineering rewards system in the tax code.

I would agree.

However, I am to the point where I really do think the wealthy need to be paying more.

I have seen some wildly disparate numbers published on how much they pay and I am basing this on the lower numbers.

Possibly getting an agreed upon database of who pays what would be a good place to start. I'll look for the sources I used in thinking this over.

 

[Darkwind]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

I'd be willing to discuss it, but I think that before any discussion of taxes and spending can be had, we have to come to an agreement that 'baseline budgeting' needs to be axed from the government process and lexicon.

 

[The Rabbi]

Reform the tax system by making it flat and transparent. Universal exemption up to, say, $30k. Above that everyone pays the same 11% on every dollar they've earned, period. No deductions.
Next review every government program. If it duplicates another one, eliminate it. Eliminate everything that is not an essential function of government.
But raising taxes has never balanced a budget.

 

[Listening]

Reform the tax system by making it flat and transparent. Universal exemption up to, say, $30k. Above that everyone pays the same 11% on every dollar they've earned, period. No deductions.
Next review every government program. If it duplicates another one, eliminate it. Eliminate everything that is not an essential function of government.
But raising taxes has never balanced a budget.

Hence the 80% spending cuts.

Raising taxes does require some discussion.

Part of it will drive out just what it is that we feel we are obligated to do as a "socienty". And yes, I don't like that we use government to enforce our "charitable side". However, at this point, I am willing to go this far in an effort to keep from screwing our kids any further.

 

[whitehall]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

Bush lost you "when we bombed Iraq"? Congress authorized Bush to use the Military to enforce UN resolutions and 36% of democrats approved of the resolution. Get freaking educated, it was Bill Clinton who bombed a defenseless country on his own. Low cost energy is the key to economic success and it ain't gonna happen as long as Obama's fascists control 2/3 of the federal government along with most of the mainstream media propaganda.

 

[Listening]

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I am quite aware of the fact that Bush added to the deficit in a bad way. I was not happy with Bush from almost the start and he really lost me when we bombed Iraq.

I also know that we have a spending problem that has a velocity all it's own with medicare and Social Security.

I am going to propose that we raise taxes on the rich and that for every dollar of additional revenue we cut four dollars of spending. This does not mean cut spending increases...this meanse we hold the budget (if we could ever get one) level and start cutting it down. Four dollars for every dollar of additional revenue.

Also, I'd like to put something in there that says that everyone from the richest to the poorest pays 2% in federal taxes. No gimmicks, not shelters. If you make 100,000...regardless of what else goes on...you are paying 2,000 to the federal government.

What say ye ?

Bush lost you "when we bombed Iraq"? Congress authorized Bush to use the Military to enforce UN resolutions and 36% of democrats approved of the resolution. Get freaking educated, it was Bill Clinton who bombed a defenseless country on his own. Low cost energy is the key to economic success and it ain't gonna happen as long as Obama's fascists control 2/3 of the federal government along with most of the mainstream media propaganda.

I am not want to make this an argument about Bush. What I was saying was that I know he ran up a bill fighting a war I opposed before it ever started.

I am certainly no fan of the democrats (especially those who voted against the war after they voted for it). I had always voted for it.

But this is going off-topic.

 

[auditor0007]

I say the "rich" already pay more than a fair share of taxes.

First of all, numbers would be meaningful.

But let me disagree and say that "fair" does not exist in this world.

If the rich got rich without government help, I'd be less inclined.

I am going to add to my proposal that everyone pays a minimum of 2%...regardless. No tax breaks.

You do realize that by taking away the earned income credit and making even the lowest income earners pay 2% in federal income taxes, then most of the lowest income earners would end up paying much more as a percentage of income than most of the super wealthy. Remember, the super wealthy pay almost nothing, as a percentage of income, to Medicare and SS. Also, at the state and local levels, the lowest income earners pay nearly four times as much as the super wealthy.

The average family of four that earns $50,000 per year will only get hit with an additional $1200 or so, but their total tax bill for the year, including all taxes, will be nearly 30% of their income. Since they only make $50,000 to begin with, that only leaves them $35,000 for four people. See, there is this illusion that low income earners don't pay taxes, but the only ones not paying taxes are those who do not work at all.

 

[auditor0007]

I say the "rich" already pay more than a fair share of taxes.

Depends where they make their money. If it is in wages, then I would tend to agree with you. If, however, the vast majority of their earnings come from capital gains, then they don't pay anywhere near their fair share.

 

[The Rabbi]

I say the "rich" already pay more than a fair share of taxes.

Depends where they make their money. If it is in wages, then I would tend to agree with you. If, however, the vast majority of their earnings come from capital gains, then they don't pay anywhere near their fair share.

As I recall cap gains are now paid at regular rates, after the bush/obama tax cuts were rescinded.
But so what? Why do we want to punish capital formation, which is what produces wealth?

 

[oldfart]

I am sure that if I got a few thousand dollars from the rich (in total) and really cut 4 times as much in spending (meaning that it would be in the order of magnitude of 0.000000001% of the budget)....nothing would happen.

So using terms like "sure fire" gets closer to trolling than anything.

Any proposal is just that and any discussion of the amounts are still to come.

I'll maybe try to read what the CBO has published but you already know my opinion of their work.

Yep, and I can respect that. But it's a better starting point than picking numbers at random. They give a menu of proposals for reducing the deficit and score each one. It's the starting point you can move forward from.

Your OP began

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I'm suggesting where to find your "absolute numbers needed to provide some context". Is this not what you asked for?

 

[Listening]

I am sure that if I got a few thousand dollars from the rich (in total) and really cut 4 times as much in spending (meaning that it would be in the order of magnitude of 0.000000001% of the budget)....nothing would happen.

So using terms like "sure fire" gets closer to trolling than anything.

Any proposal is just that and any discussion of the amounts are still to come.

I'll maybe try to read what the CBO has published but you already know my opinion of their work.

Yep, and I can respect that. But it's a better starting point than picking numbers at random. They give a menu of proposals for reducing the deficit and score each one. It's the starting point you can move forward from.

Your OP began

There have been numerous discussions about the way to reduce the deficit and debt. Even as I read the arguments, I get lost without the absolute numbers needed to provide some context. A simple balance sheet would be fine.

I'm suggesting where to find your "absolute numbers needed to provide some context". Is this not what you asked for?

It is and it is worth looking at since nobody else has brought forth any numbers.

However, I am not sure about the conclusions about a depression and all the other doom and gloom.