Contradictions in the Bible?

[LOki]

Apparently. Lucifer & one third of the angels, did. Because they had freewill.

Then, being perfect, they behaved perfectly and disobeying God is not wrong.

Going into the street is not bad. Neither is eating fruit. Disobeying, especially God, is.

Then Lucifer, 1/3 of the Angels, Adam, Eve, you, and I are not perfect.

Now I have a question for you. Why are you in this thread?

To find out answers and exchange ideas.

You don't seem to be here to exchange ideas or find answers.

Just because others refuse to aknowledge, or answer my questions does not mean that I have not asked those question in an effort to exchange ideas or find answers. Rather, it indicates that those who refuse to aknowledge, or answer questions have no interest in exchanging ideas or finding answers.

You could bother them with this manner of inquiry Joz, but I assure you that the best you will get out of those intellectual cowards is along the lines of:<blockquote>"What are your qualifications for posting?"</blockquote>

You don't believe in the Bible.

Demonstrate.

You only seem to want to tell us just how wrong we are and that we're nuts (my words not yours) that we believe the way we do.

You're wrong and nuts if you believe I have been telling you you are wrong. I have been asking questions, providing commentary and answering questions in an effort to exchange ideas, find answers, and discover exactly why you are right.

Wasn't Loki some mythology guy to do with Norse gods and fraud & mischief?

Nope. Loki is not real, he's only a myth.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

And again, we're talking GOD, here. You're putting God on a human level. He spoke the world into existence. Why would you not believe Him???

No, you're putting him on a human level, by drawing all these human examples. I'm merely responding to them. If that's your argument, then your drug comparison, your walking in front of a bus comparison, those are totally pointless. Now I'm confused.

 

[Joz]

Then, being perfect, they behaved perfectly and disobeying God is not wrong.Then Lucifer, 1/3 of the Angels, Adam, Eve, you, and I are not perfect.

Please tell me how you arrived at this.
You are are correct that you & I aren't perfect. We've had years & years of sin make us into what we are. I don't think you want to believe that tho' God created man perfect, he was still fooled and chose wrong, because of freewill. Sort of makes hope for us pale in the light. You don't want to believe that God would STILL create such a being knowing that this would happen, that Jesus would have to make the choice to come here & die as a price to buy back this world.

To find out answers and exchange ideas.....You're wrong and nuts if you believe I have been telling you you are wrong. I have been asking questions, providing commentary and answering questions in an effort to exchange ideas, find answers, and discover exactly why you are right.

I wanted to make sure that this was indeed an exchange of ideas. I've been down this path before with others with the intent I described. If I'm going to waste time, I'd rather it be on me.

 

[Joz]

No, you're putting him on a human level, by drawing all these human examples. I'm merely responding to them. If that's your argument, then your drug comparison, your walking in front of a bus comparison, those are totally pointless. Now I'm confused.

I do that to people, unintentionally.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are things I can learn without ever doing, or experiencing; I learn because someone I trust said thus-&-such; and I'm a sinful being. How & why would Adam & Eve, after walking with God, ever doubt Him and what He told them?

 

[dilloduck]

I do that to people, unintentionally.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are things I can learn without ever doing, or experiencing; I learn because someone I trust said thus-&-such; and I'm a sinful being. How & why would Adam & Eve, after walking with God, ever doubt Him and what He told them?

It was necesssary for them to test Him to learn that they were not the boss.

 

[Joz]

It was necesssary for them to test Him to learn that they were not the boss.

Why would you need to test GOD???

I understand that He placed the tree in the midst of the Garden; as an option to obey or disobey. They chose.

 

[dilloduck]

Why would you need to test GOD???

I understand that He placed the tree in the midst of the Garden; as an option to obey or disobey. They chose.

Curiosity

 

[Nienna]

Why would you need to test GOD???

I understand that He placed the tree in the midst of the Garden; as an option to obey or disobey. They chose.

I'm with you, here, Joz. The tree was given so that they would have a choice, God's way or theirs.

Adam & Eve knew they were not God. They knew that they did not create themselves. They knew Who the Creator was bc they fellowshipped with Him. Knowing they were created beings, knowing Who the Creator was, it is only logical for them to assume that God was more powerful than they. I don't believe they were curious about who was in charge. I believe they were tempted to become "like God" because they knew He was more powerful.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm with you, here, Joz. The tree was given so that they would have a choice, God's way or theirs.

Adam & Eve knew they were not God. They knew that they did not create themselves. They knew Who the Creator was bc they fellowshipped with Him. Knowing they were created beings, knowing Who the Creator was, it is only logical for them to assume that God was more powerful than they. I don't believe they were curious about who was in charge. I believe they were tempted to become "like God" because they knew He was more powerful.

The devil succeeded in tempting them?

 

[Joz]

The devil succeeded in tempting them?

You're living among the result.

 

[jillian]

You're living among the result.

If they "succumbed" to temptation, then there was free will, no?

 

[Joz]

If they "succumbed" to temptation, then there was free will, no?

Yes.
They had the choice.

 

[dilloduck]

The devil succeeded in tempting them?

Then God didn't make em strong enough to resist?

 

[Joz]

Then God didn't make em strong enough to resist?

So now this is God's fault? How would it have been if He hadn't given them the choice?
Are you happy when you force the affection or loyality of someone? Isn't it nice to know when someone loves you because they want to love you?

We choose whether or not to love God & obey Him. He wants us to have faith in Him. It's that simple, but very hard to sometimes do.

 

[Phaedrus]

The Devil doesn't "make" you do anything. You have the choice, and he only makes one option seem better, as opposed to your consience which points the other way.

Ultimatley it is your fault for making the choice, not the devil for tempting you. That's like blaming the wind for blowing, the devil will tempt regardless, like a force of nature.

 

[Nienna]

The devil succeeded in tempting them?

Of course.

 

[Nienna]

Then God didn't make em strong enough to resist?

Of course they were strong enough to resist. They merely chose not to.

I am strong enough to mop my floors right now. I simply choose not to.

 

[Phaedrus]

I posted a reply to this, but apparently it didn't go through. There seems to be a lull in the topic, so I guess I'll reply now.

On what basis is it reasonable then to assert that Adam and Eve knew, before eating the Fruit, that disobeying God was wrong?

The basis of the distintion I made between the knowledge of right/wrong vs. Good/Evil.

Is the possibility that sin could subjectively be the right thing to do the basis of moral relativisim? If you have no idea what the Truth is, upon what basis can we assert a person other than ourselves has sinned?

To the first aspect of the question, certainley. As to the second, it is not our purpose to assert whether another has sinned. However, people do judge, and generally use the Bible to determine God's will.

The sense I'm using is that insisted in the Bible.

You are necessarily wrong if we accept the infallibility of the truth of the Bible.

You may be wrong, you may be right. Here's where I shoot myself in the foot though. I view the Bible as a collection of parables, nothing more. Certainley there are worthy lessons contained therein, but nothing is infallible as to finding Truth.

As to what is "Good", I stand by my assertion life is "Good", and contains "Bad". This doesn't make life "Bad" in any way. As I stated, it makes it better. If I contradict the Bible, though I don't see a direct contradiction, so be it.

My basis is my own. As far as I know, I only have 1 life to live, and in it I will judge and make decisions to the best of my abilities. This is how I view God, and beliefs don't need to be justified. Feel free to question them however.

(I)s it acceptable that others argue God's usage of the Devil as evil, citing other works?

Of course, I was merely providing an example.

 

[LOki]

Please tell me how you arrived at this.

Perfect means to be entirely without fault or defect. If Lucifer, the remining third of the Angels that are fallen, Adam, and Eve were entirely without fault or defect, then they lack the capacity for fault or defect. Being perfect, is much more than being pretty. It also means they were intellectually, spiritually and morally perfect. If you insist they were all perfect, then you must abide by that which necessarily comes of such perfection--which is continued perfection.

As their respective disobediance is not at issue being a matter of record, one must conclude that if Lucifer, the remining third of the Angels that are fallen, Adam and Eve were entirely without fault or defect--were perfect--then their disobediance, conforming to their perfection, was entirely intellectually, spiritually and morally without fault or defect as well.

I would like to point out to you that nowhere in the Bible is it stated that Adam and Eve were perfect--you've been told that, and you've been told that to a purpose. I question that purpose.

You are are correct that you & I aren't perfect. We've had years & years of sin make us into what we are. I don't think you want to believe that tho' God created man perfect, he was still fooled and chose wrong, because of freewill.

I would like to point out to you also that God, being the author of all things, is also the author of free-will. As such, your implication that free-will is bad is in direct contradiction to the Bible. I would suspect that the purpose of asserting Adam and Eve were perfect except for the "flaw" of free-will is to cast dispersions at free-will. The people most likely to do so are those for whom free-will is anathema--namely authoritarians. Folks who want nothing at all to do with you except tell you exactly what to do in every facet of you life hold a particularly virulent dislike for free-will.

Sort of makes hope for us pale in the light. You don't want to believe that God would STILL create such a being knowing that this would happen, that Jesus would have to make the choice to come here & die as a price to buy back this world.

This is why it is important to examine our assumptions, Joz. This is why I have been questioning them. And this is why in these discussions, I refuse to practice favoritism for assumptions, even those that I hold and agree with myself.

On what basis is it reasonable then to assert that Adam and Eve knew, before eating the Fruit, that disobeying God was wrong?

The basis of the distintion I made between the knowledge of right/wrong vs. Good/Evil.

Is this the distinction you speak of?<blockquote>"Biblical knowledge of Good and Evil, as far as I understand it, is not knowledge of right and wrong. IMHO it points more to a Freudian Super Ego being revealed. Whether or not we have that Super Ego, we can still determine right from wrong."</blockquote>If so, it's a rather self referential means of asserting the reason Eve was first to fall. And, if Freud's assertions are correct, and the Bible factual, Adam could never have an Oedipus complex leaving Adam's super-ego to be God, unfettered and unopposed--a situation not only logically contradictory, but also Biblically inconsistent.

Secondly, and more important to the discussion, your "distinction" makes no distinction between Right and Wrong vs. Good and Evil--it only asserts it.

Is the possibility that sin could subjectively be the right thing to do the basis of moral relativisim? If you have no idea what the Truth is, upon what basis can we assert a person other than ourselves has sinned?

To the first aspect of the question, certainley. As to the second, it is not our purpose to assert whether another has sinned. However, people do judge, and generally use the Bible to determine God's will.

First part first then: If one's criteria for morality was based solely on the distinction of right over wrong, rather than obediance vs sin, would that person be validly able to judge as good or evil particular obediances to God?

Second part: If it is not our purpose to assert whether another has sinned, is it not true then that we cannot judge one and other on the basis of sin? Doesn't the Bible assert that God is the sole judge of sin? If so, what business do people have, using the Bible to determine "God's will" if it is not to do so beyond their legitimate capacity, but rather to exert their own will over their fellows in God's name?

God, on the other hand, is purely good.

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God?

He created existence knowing the bad would add to the good.

Upon what basis do you claim to know what God knows?

His intentions were always pure.

Upon what basis do you claim to know God's intentions, and upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge them?

My basis is my own. As far as I know, I only have 1 life to live, and in it I will judge and make decisions to the best of my abilities. This is how I view God, and beliefs don't need to be justified. Feel free to question them however

I will, and I am. My questions were not rhetorical. You appear to be rather confident that depite not needing to be justified in your beliefs, you indeed feel justified in your belief that it is appropriate for you to judge God, that you know what He knows and His intentions. I'd like to know how that comes about. Perhaps I also am justified in judging God, and know what He knows, and know His intentions--or at least *can* if I exercise those capacities.

 

[Phaedrus]

your "distinction" makes no distinction between Right and Wrong vs. Good and Evil--it only asserts it.

If you read further into the seperate discussion I had concerning that distinction you'll see what I assert. That was the first post of many concerning that. Also don't take Freud at face value, he was merely a precursor to modern psychology.

(W)ould that person be validly able to judge as good or evil particular obediances to God?

Yes

If so, what business do people have, using the Bible to determine "God's will" if it is not to do so beyond their legitimate capacity, but rather to exert their own will over their fellows in God's name?

That's it, they have no buisiness, but's impractical to live otherwise. Don't expect me to justify other people's actions. Just explain them the way I see them.

Perhaps I also am justified in judging God, and know what He knows, and know His intentions--or at least *can* if I exercise those capacities.

Choice implies judgement. Thus, in being given free will we are given the ability to judge God. Have no pretensions of being correct, but don't expect me to live as if I weren't