CDZ Confused about gender politics, help!

[theDoctorisIn]

Ok so I recently watched a lot of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Petersen and Milo yiannopoulos and i watched some arguments from leftist perspectives. My confusion is this, if we are made to use certain pronouns then surely that is an infringement on basic human rights? And actively goes against the argument for gender neutrality. Which from my understanding is that everyone's opinion and belief should be respected.

Am I missing the point or is the argument for neutrality genuinely that flawed?

You're missing the point.

You frame the argument as if you're being forced to do something against your will - in this case, using the pronouns that people identify with.

You're not being forced to do anything - just like I'm not being "forced" to be polite to you. I'm choosing to do so, because it's common courtesy.

If I meet someone whose given name is Steve, but they prefer to be called John, I'm not being "forced" to call them John - I'm choosing to, because that's what they prefer to be called.

"hate speech" is not illegal in the US - yet. But there's no doubt that many on the left would like to see anti-free speech laws such as the one in Britain used to protect people from being offended. Which is why it's important for everyone who cares about preserving free speech to resist the narrative about gender pronouns being about common courtesy.

It is my opinion that most of these so called non-binary people are just looking for a reason to be offended because it's trendy to claim victimhood status.

The "we must be assholes to be free" argument is dumb, and based on irrational fears. It goes against the entire concept of freedom - which is, the ability to make decisions and face the consequences of them.

You are welcome to be an asshole - and other people are well within their rights to react negatively to you doing so.

If your ideological positions are more important to you than social relationships, that's fine - but don't be surprised when you find the end result of placing ideological purity over social relationships is eventual ostracization from society.

Are you calling me an asshole? Wow, I am offended! I should not be forced to feel these uncomfortable feelings, it's the current year! Someone should pass a law!

Well, feel free to start a movement pushing for a law, snowflake.

Here in reality, no one is actually trying to do that. I understand that ideologically, you are compelled to feel persecuted and victimized, but that's not reflected in reality.

 

[impuretrash]

Ok so I recently watched a lot of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Petersen and Milo yiannopoulos and i watched some arguments from leftist perspectives. My confusion is this, if we are made to use certain pronouns then surely that is an infringement on basic human rights? And actively goes against the argument for gender neutrality. Which from my understanding is that everyone's opinion and belief should be respected.

Am I missing the point or is the argument for neutrality genuinely that flawed?

You're missing the point.

You frame the argument as if you're being forced to do something against your will - in this case, using the pronouns that people identify with.

You're not being forced to do anything - just like I'm not being "forced" to be polite to you. I'm choosing to do so, because it's common courtesy.

If I meet someone whose given name is Steve, but they prefer to be called John, I'm not being "forced" to call them John - I'm choosing to, because that's what they prefer to be called.

"hate speech" is not illegal in the US - yet. But there's no doubt that many on the left would like to see anti-free speech laws such as the one in Britain used to protect people from being offended. Which is why it's important for everyone who cares about preserving free speech to resist the narrative about gender pronouns being about common courtesy.

It is my opinion that most of these so called non-binary people are just looking for a reason to be offended because it's trendy to claim victimhood status.

The "we must be assholes to be free" argument is dumb, and based on irrational fears. It goes against the entire concept of freedom - which is, the ability to make decisions and face the consequences of them.

You are welcome to be an asshole - and other people are well within their rights to react negatively to you doing so.

If your ideological positions are more important to you than social relationships, that's fine - but don't be surprised when you find the end result of placing ideological purity over social relationships is eventual ostracization from society.

Are you calling me an asshole? Wow, I am offended! I should not be forced to feel these uncomfortable feelings, it's the current year! Someone should pass a law!

Well, feel free to start a movement pushing for a law, snowflake.

Here in reality, no one is actually trying to do that. I understand that ideologically, you are compelled to feel persecuted and victimized, but that's not reflected in reality.

Hate speech legislation is already on the books in many European countries so don't pretend as if the concept is unrealistic. Bernie Sanders and many leftists in the US frequently site European laws and systems as a model to be emulated. As you guys are quick to remind us, attitudes are rapidly changing so it stands to reason that in the not too distant future, there will be widespread support for laws regulating speech. So-called minority groups when polled are largely in favor of such laws so long as they're the ones being "protected".

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You're missing the point.

You frame the argument as if you're being forced to do something against your will - in this case, using the pronouns that people identify with.

You're not being forced to do anything - just like I'm not being "forced" to be polite to you. I'm choosing to do so, because it's common courtesy.

If I meet someone whose given name is Steve, but they prefer to be called John, I'm not being "forced" to call them John - I'm choosing to, because that's what they prefer to be called.

"hate speech" is not illegal in the US - yet. But there's no doubt that many on the left would like to see anti-free speech laws such as the one in Britain used to protect people from being offended. Which is why it's important for everyone who cares about preserving free speech to resist the narrative about gender pronouns being about common courtesy.

It is my opinion that most of these so called non-binary people are just looking for a reason to be offended because it's trendy to claim victimhood status.

The "we must be assholes to be free" argument is dumb, and based on irrational fears. It goes against the entire concept of freedom - which is, the ability to make decisions and face the consequences of them.

You are welcome to be an asshole - and other people are well within their rights to react negatively to you doing so.

If your ideological positions are more important to you than social relationships, that's fine - but don't be surprised when you find the end result of placing ideological purity over social relationships is eventual ostracization from society.

Are you calling me an asshole? Wow, I am offended! I should not be forced to feel these uncomfortable feelings, it's the current year! Someone should pass a law!

Well, feel free to start a movement pushing for a law, snowflake.

Here in reality, no one is actually trying to do that. I understand that ideologically, you are compelled to feel persecuted and victimized, but that's not reflected in reality.

Hate speech legislation is already on the books in many European countries so don't pretend as if the concept is unrealistic. Bernie Sanders and many leftists in the US frequently site European laws and systems as a model to be emulated. As you guys are quick to remind us, attitudes are rapidly changing so it stands to reason that in the not too distant future, there will be widespread support for laws regulating speech. So-called minority groups when polled are largely in favor of such laws so long as they're the ones being "protected".

Yes, I know. To justify your ideology, you have to convince yourself that you're "fighting the good fight" by being an asshole - otherwise, you're just being an asshole.

Countries in Europe don't have a First Amendment. Their hate speech laws are of no concern here.

 

[Mac1958]

You're missing the point.

You frame the argument as if you're being forced to do something against your will - in this case, using the pronouns that people identify with.

You're not being forced to do anything - just like I'm not being "forced" to be polite to you. I'm choosing to do so, because it's common courtesy.

If I meet someone whose given name is Steve, but they prefer to be called John, I'm not being "forced" to call them John - I'm choosing to, because that's what they prefer to be called.

"hate speech" is not illegal in the US - yet. But there's no doubt that many on the left would like to see anti-free speech laws such as the one in Britain used to protect people from being offended. Which is why it's important for everyone who cares about preserving free speech to resist the narrative about gender pronouns being about common courtesy.

It is my opinion that most of these so called non-binary people are just looking for a reason to be offended because it's trendy to claim victimhood status.

The "we must be assholes to be free" argument is dumb, and based on irrational fears. It goes against the entire concept of freedom - which is, the ability to make decisions and face the consequences of them.

You are welcome to be an asshole - and other people are well within their rights to react negatively to you doing so.

If your ideological positions are more important to you than social relationships, that's fine - but don't be surprised when you find the end result of placing ideological purity over social relationships is eventual ostracization from society.

Are you calling me an asshole? Wow, I am offended! I should not be forced to feel these uncomfortable feelings, it's the current year! Someone should pass a law!

Well, feel free to start a movement pushing for a law, snowflake.

Here in reality, no one is actually trying to do that. I understand that ideologically, you are compelled to feel persecuted and victimized, but that's not reflected in reality.

Hate speech legislation is already on the books in many European countries so don't pretend as if the concept is unrealistic. Bernie Sanders and many leftists in the US frequently site European laws and systems as a model to be emulated. As you guys are quick to remind us, attitudes are rapidly changing so it stands to reason that in the not too distant future, there will be widespread support for laws regulating speech. So-called minority groups when polled are largely in favor of such laws so long as they're the ones being "protected".

Yep. It's no stretch at all to think -- assume, actually -- that the illiberal leftist authoritarians would push for more laws regulating and punishing speech. It's done elsewhere, and we're seeing it done on an unofficial basis on college campuses and the workplace.

Their denials are a transparent lie. But they may end up getting what they want.
.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Ok so I recently watched a lot of Ben Shapiro, Jordan Petersen and Milo yiannopoulos and i watched some arguments from leftist perspectives. My confusion is this, if we are made to use certain pronouns then surely that is an infringement on basic human rights? And actively goes against the argument for gender neutrality. Which from my understanding is that everyone's opinion and belief should be respected.

Am I missing the point or is the argument for neutrality genuinely that flawed?

Forced tolerance is intolerance.

Decade After Decadent Decade, Generation After Degenerate Generation

Tolerance is a degenerative disease.

This word “tolerance” is used with imprecision in these debates. Obviously, it’s appropriate to tolerate people who enjoy ballet even if you can’t stand it, or Eskimos even if you despise Eskimos (ice-hole fishing bastards!); but tolerating your brother-in-law beating your sister, or people trying to leverage governmental coercion to make you say certain words is another matter entirely.

 

[usmbguest5318]

If someone tells you their name is "Pat," do you not call him or her "Pat?" If you follow that convention, then following the same convention -- using whatever pronoun the person asks one to use to refer to them -- shouldn't give you pause.

 

[ChrisL]

If someone tells you their name is "Pat," do you not call him or her "Pat?" If you follow that convention, then following the same convention -- using whatever pronoun the person asks one to use to refer to them -- shouldn't give you pause.

Yes it does because you are participating in and lying about something you know isn't true. I refuse to participate in such delusions. If you look like a boy, I am calling you he. I am not going to be guilted into calling you something that you are not because you are delusional.

 

[ChrisL]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

 

[ChrisL]

If you used to be a man and I met you as a woman and you appeared to be a woman to me, then I might call you she in that instance. Then I might know you as a she. I would still think you were completely fucked up though, and I would avoid you because I choose to keep that kind of shit out of my life.

 

[martybegan]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

 

[ChrisL]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

That is really messed up. On most days, I feel like a person and my gender is not the first and foremost thing on my mind, and that is how I know they are fucked up.

 

[ChrisL]

And they will claim that gender is a "social construct" while they totally exaggerate feminine gestures and stuff to a caricature level. It's almost as if they are making fun of women really. I don't even know any women who act as ridiculously "feminine" (if that's what you would call that) as some of these gender confused men.

 

[martybegan]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

That is really messed up. On most days, I feel like a person and my gender is not the first and foremost thing on my mind, and that is how I know they are fucked up.

if someone was nice about it, I probably would accomodate them.

 

[ChrisL]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

That is really messed up. On most days, I feel like a person and my gender is not the first and foremost thing on my mind, and that is how I know they are fucked up.

if someone was nice about it, I probably would accomodate them.

I don't really think it is the healthy thing to do though. Feeding a delusion is usually never a good idea because it doesn't really help any underlying issues.

 

[ChrisL]

I think it can probably make matters a lot worse in many cases. It makes it harder for these people to accept reality.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

Back in the day, when someone identified as gender fluid, they ended up in a white jacket in a rubber room. Today, they are leaders of the Democrat party.

 

[ChrisL]

Insofar as I'm having an unusually beneficent moment, I'll even help you out OP-er....

• "She" and "her" are the personal pronouns used to refer to females. If you look at a person or their image and they look like a female to you, refer to them as "she" or "her" if you are not of a mind to refer to her by name.
• "He" and "him" are the personal pronouns used to refer to females. If you look at a person or their image and they look like a male to you, refer to them as "he" or "him" if you are not of a mind to refer to him by name. (A key thing to notice about the possessive versions of personal pronouns is that they don't take an apostrophe.)
• There are also possessive versions of the gender specific personal pronouns. They are "hers" and "his."
• Lastly, there are the non-gender specific personal pronouns. They are "you," "your," "yours," "I," "me," "my," "mine," "we," "us," "our," "ours," "they," "them," "their," and "theirs."

• When one is unsure whether the person under consideration/discussion is male or female, one may refer to them using descriptive phrases like "the person who...," "the individual with...," etc. There are, of course, other ways of handling uncertainty such as that which I've described, but insofar as you're struggling with basic personal pronoun choice and how and why one might choose one or the other personal pronoun, I think, for now, it's best that you go with the very simplest and most reliably accurate phrasings.

If you look at a person or their image and they look like a female to you, refer to them as "she" or "her" if you are not of a mind to refer to her by name.

Sorry Dude, but this guy is named "BRUCE" even if "HE" has boobs. I am not mentally ill and wont play the PC game, that liberals do. If you were born a male, that means your genetic make up is XY, even if you take the penis and testies away. Inside you are still a MALE. THAT IS SCIENCE....

Would I be nervous if this creature was to enter the bathroom while I was in there? Probably. Hopefully I would be armed. Dude is whacked. You never know if someone who is whacked is going to freak.

That's a 68 year old elderly person we are making fun of here. As pointless as a sex change may be at that stage of the game I really don't care.

BTW, I think most of his/her family is whacked.

On another side note, do we have any stats on who gets caught being a child predator? Medium sized 30-50 year old white men would be my off the cuff guess for the most likely folks.

That's a 68 year old elderly person we are making fun of here.

I thought Clowns were meant to be laughed at?

ok. Well next 68 year old grandpa or grandma you see that looks freaky go laugh at. But yeah, I don't understand it personally past wondering what life would be like if I were 5'1".

Me being a small government fella I think even things I'm uncomfortable with should be legal as long as they don't affect me. If my neighbor wants a sex change, fine. If they wanna own a gun, fine. Now if they get creepy with my kids or mix alcohol and their gun we getta talk. You about the same way?

I don't think it should be illegal or anything either, but that doesn't mean that I have to play along either. If that is what makes them happy allegedly, then whatever, but I don't want anything to do with it.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't think I could handle the drama of having a transgender friend.

 

[martybegan]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

That is really messed up. On most days, I feel like a person and my gender is not the first and foremost thing on my mind, and that is how I know they are fucked up.

if someone was nice about it, I probably would accomodate them.

I don't really think it is the healthy thing to do though. Feeding a delusion is usually never a good idea because it doesn't really help any underlying issues.

As long as the only person they are deluding is themselves, I feel no need to interfere.

As long as they are nice about it, I will call them whatever they want to be called.

The second they get nasty about it, that's when I go into Fuck You mode.

 

[martybegan]

If you look like a man and you are wearing a dress, you are still a HE (a weird he, but still a he).

The other thing is the concept of "gender fluid" where they don't identify with any one, or can change their mind on a day to day basis what they want to be called.

Back in the day, when someone identified as gender fluid, they ended up in a white jacket in a rubber room. Today, they are leaders of the Democrat party.

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A free society should be able to handle it's weird fringe contingent.

The problem is that some of them want to be accepted as mainstream, and if they don't get that, they want the people rejecting their views be punished, be it by the mob, or by government.