Class War Illustrated

[Trajan]

Trajan, I just don't find it relevant for me to pick numbers, when we're talking about overall ideology. I'm by no means an expert in the field nor have I prepared myself for such a question.

But, to appease you so we can move on (though I think you're trying to march me down a road where I don't want to go), let's say I propose returning to Clinton's numbers with an additional bracket of 50% for wages above $1m. As stated I'd also like upper limits removed from payroll taxes, and capital gains, inheritance, and gifts taxed identical to wages. EITC should be eliminated, as should write-offs for non-working spouse and children.

edit: And why do Republicans like to issue the question of 'What rich is?' It's just such a silly sophistry to phrase the question that way... 'Rich' is so different across a broad array of criteria that any definition of 'Rich' could be easily defeated.

I am not trying to lead you anywhere. I am asking for a framework, the terms rich and poor are thrown around willy nilly of course its subjective to an extent.

The op listed the usual tired graphic that speaks to the rich get off easy because they also the evil rich want to cut things while their shares of ‘tax cuts’ could pay for them......its ludicrous, the comparison is strained at best.

But money the end result in most cases of riches, the portion kept and not taxed of someone labor is represented by, dollars.

Its very easy, what portion of someone’s labor represented by dollars should he/she have to surrender? It’s the only metric we can quantify across the board is it not? I don't care what has been or is.

Frankly I think you are trying to lead me into an emotional argument, and no, I won’t go there because it doesn’t matter.
My personal feelings mean little in this context, say; I think defense needs more, you may think AFDC needs more...so it’s a wash. You think college should be free, I don’t...who cares?

I am trying to determine what you and others here think; what labor and the wealth derived there by should be subject to taking for the collective? I don’t know any other way to say it.

T... I think this time, I very specifically answered the question. See red highlight. I don't know how I can be any more specific or what exactly you're asking me for.

well, I am sorry Cuyo, but I think I was specific in what I was asking for....here;

lets say a bus man who after operating costs etc.for is bus., OR a salary slave, his personal net income ala AGI for;

5 Million, 1 million, 500k, 250k..150k 100k 75k..his tax on those amount should be...50%, 30, 20 10...what?

example; I feel at 100k no one ( separate (married) or single) should pay more than an average ( not marginal) tax rate of 20%. All in, state and federal.

what do you think it should be for the numbers I listed?

5 Million,
1 million
500k
250k
150k
100k
75k

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, do you think we should be sending aid to Japan?

Sure. And the American people should be accumulating the cash and/or relief supplies to send over there. It should NOT be the responsiblity of the U.S. government however though it could be the receiver and transporter of the relief.

 

[JBeukema]

How can one possibly determine what tax rates should be without first knowing the funds that must be raised?

Get rid of the waste in the government, pay off our debt, and lcose the loopholes- then see whether you can afford to cut taxes

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not trying to lead you anywhere. I am asking for a framework, the terms rich and poor are thrown around willy nilly of course its subjective to an extent.

The op listed the usual tired graphic that speaks to the rich get off easy because they also the evil rich want to cut things while their shares of ‘tax cuts’ could pay for them......its ludicrous, the comparison is strained at best.

But money the end result in most cases of riches, the portion kept and not taxed of someone labor is represented by, dollars.

Its very easy, what portion of someone’s labor represented by dollars should he/she have to surrender? It’s the only metric we can quantify across the board is it not? I don't care what has been or is.

Frankly I think you are trying to lead me into an emotional argument, and no, I won’t go there because it doesn’t matter.
My personal feelings mean little in this context, say; I think defense needs more, you may think AFDC needs more...so it’s a wash. You think college should be free, I don’t...who cares?

I am trying to determine what you and others here think; what labor and the wealth derived there by should be subject to taking for the collective? I don’t know any other way to say it.

T... I think this time, I very specifically answered the question. See red highlight. I don't know how I can be any more specific or what exactly you're asking me for.

well, I am sorry Cuyo, but I think I was specific in what I was asking for....here;

lets say a bus man who after operating costs etc.for is bus., OR a salary slave, his personal net income ala AGI for;

5 Million, 1 million, 500k, 250k..150k 100k 75k..his tax on those amount should be...50%, 30, 20 10...what?

example; I feel at 100k no one ( separate (married) or single) should pay more than an average ( not marginal) tax rate of 20%. All in, state and federal.

what do you think it should be for the numbers I listed?

5 Million,
1 million
500k
250k
150k
100k
75k

Let's take it down to about $15k and start there and make it a flat percentage for all incomes.

 

[JBeukema]

Fox, do you think we should be sending aid to Japan?

Sure. And the American people should be accumulating the cash and/or relief supplies to send over there. It should NOT be the responsiblity of the U.S. government however though it could be the receiver and transporter of the relief.

So, no, you don't think America should send aid... Although you think Americans should aid. But you want Americans to go through the State to do so, but not it shouldn't mean the State is involved in the collection of the funds...

You do realize that the idea of a republic is that that the People and the State are supposed to be one in the same, right? Of course, aren't all charities ultimate creations of the social contract, same as governments?

Your position seems a bit contradictory

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, do you think we should be sending aid to Japan?

Sure. And the American people should be accumulating the cash and/or relief supplies to send over there. It should NOT be the responsiblity of the U.S. government however though it could be the receiver and transporter of the relief.

So, no, you don't think America should send aid... Although you think Americans should aid. But you want Americans to go through the State to do so, but not it shouldn't mean the State is involved in the collection of the funds...

You do realize that the idea of a republic is that that the People and the State are supposed to be one in the same, right? Of course, aren't all charities ultimate creations of the social contract, same as governments?

Your position seems a bit contradictory

No you're wrong. The People and the State are NOT one and the same. In a Republic as ours was designed via our Constitution, the State is the property of the people and its servant and is obligated to do the people's bidding. The USA was intended to have no king, no monarch, no dictator, no totallitarian authority, no taxation without representation, and the property of the people was sacrosanct. The state would collect no more of the people's property than it had to have to do the constitutional functions assigned to it.

Charities are a social contract, yes, but should always be private and subject to government oversight only to the extent to ensure that nobody's unalienable, civil, legal, or constitutional rights will be infringed. Ditto for all private business.

The state, however, does have large cargo planes and ships and manpower at its disposal and these have to log so many hours anyway for the constitutionally authorized military to stay in top training condition. So it would make sense to utilize these to transport large quantities of relief supplies--furnished by the American people at THEIR discretion--to those in need of those supplies.

Once the state assumes authority or ability to confiscate the people's money for what it considers to be charitable purposes, the people have lost important freedoms.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The answer isn't higher taxes any more than the answer is lower taxes. The answer is fair taxes.

7 + 7 on 3

7% general sales tax on every transaction, 7% tax on income in excess of $3 million for citizens, all income for non-citizens.

Buy a Ferrari, pay Ferrari tax - Buy a 7-year old Hyundai, pay less.

that won't satisfy them.

and you know it won't be 7% for long.

Not really the point... Can we put you down for a 'maybe' regarding fair taxes? Ass-u-me-ing we can hire someone to administer it that isn't a meanie.

 

[JBeukema]

The People and the State are NOT one and the same.

Then we no longer live in the republic we were promised and I wonder why you think the ruling class cares what you say.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, do you think we should be sending aid to Japan?

So I answered your question.

Would you answer mine?

All things being equal, what makes Citizen A who made choices to do what was necessary to become honorably prosperous responsible to support Citizen B who did not make choices to do what was necessary to become honorably prosperous?

 

[JBeukema]

Fox, some people believe that it is morally wrong to let a child starve to death or walk right past a dying man without acknowledging him. If you can't understand that even on an intellectual level, let alone the human level, then nobody can explain it to you. All we can do is pray for your soul.

You seem to think everyone who is poor has chosen to be poor. Your ignorance of the real world, historical and contemporary, is surely to blame for your swallowing such propaganda and capitalist rhetoric. It would take more than this thread to educate you. Maybe you should read a history book, spend some time among the working poor, or visit Africa and Southeast Asia.

 

[mnbasketball]

why should I be paying for soldiers all over the world? Why should i be paying for a war of choice that Bush started. Why was Vietnam war waged, it had noting to do with me.
Why are we building highways and bridges and airports that I have no real need for.
Why are we building schools and universities that do noting for me, my kids don't attend and neither do I. Why do we need a highway patrol, it isn't something I care for.

Why do we allow countries to sell their products in the USA and not be charge a fee while we have to pay to sell our products. Why do we let people who aren't citizens come into our country and take a job from someone who is a citizen. Why don't we go after companies that break the law by hiring people who are illegals.

Why should I have to get a sewer or have/pay for city water. Why do i have to pay someone to taker my garbage, why shouldn't I be able to just throw it out in the back forty along with the motor oil and other things I might have to use but don't want anymore.

Who are you to tell me what I should do. Why should I have to pay to use a park that belongs to me a citizen?

Where does the govt get the right to make us go to school. Where do they get the right to decide who I marry or even if I want to be married to more than one person.

where is all this stuff in the constitution?

 

[mnbasketball]

what foxfyre want you to say is it doesn't give the govt the right to take from one person and give to another. He's right there isn't a sentence that comes right out and says they do. But what he doesn't want to understand is that the constitution is a guide and a work in progress. The founders had no idea of what the USA would be like 300+ years later and couldn't write on a paper everything that would come up.

Hell they allowed you buy and sell people at one time but not anymore.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fox, some people believe that it is morally wrong to let a child starve to death or walk right past a dying man without acknowledging him. If you can't understand that even on an intellectual level, let alone the human level, then nobody can explain it to you. All we can do is pray for your soul.

You seem to think everyone who is poor has chosen to be poor. Your ignorance of the real world, historical and contemporary, is surely to blame for your swallowing such propaganda and capitalist rhetoric. It would take more than this thread to educate you. Maybe you should read a history book, spend some time among the working poor, or visit Africa and Southeast Asia.

We are not speaking about morality here. I did not use the word morality. You don't know me, you don't know my history, my vocations, my avocations, what I have done hands on with the poor, or where I have or have not traveled, but I can assure you everything you are saying about what I seem to think about anything or my ignorance of the real world or my knowledge of history is way off base.

So as none of that is necessary to answer the question, let's return to it.

All things, being equal, what makes Citizen A who chose to do what was necessary to become prosperous responsible for supporting Citizen B who didn't choose to do what was necessary to become prosperous?

 

[JBeukema]

The question was answered. That you want to dismiss the moral question when that is exactly what you yourself are talking about proves that you have no intention of discussing the matter honestly. If you simply want to parrot rhetoric, find someone else to with whom to waste the time.

 

[georgephillip]

Fox, some people believe that it is morally wrong to let a child starve to death or walk right past a dying man without acknowledging him. If you can't understand that even on an intellectual level, let alone the human level, then nobody can explain it to you. All we can do is pray for your soul.

You seem to think everyone who is poor has chosen to be poor. Your ignorance of the real world, historical and contemporary, is surely to blame for your swallowing such propaganda and capitalist rhetoric. It would take more than this thread to educate you. Maybe you should read a history book, spend some time among the working poor, or visit Africa and Southeast Asia.

We are not speaking about morality here. I did not use the word morality. You don't know me, you don't know my history, my vocations, my avocations, what I have done hands on with the poor, or where I have or have not traveled, but I can assure you everything you are saying about what I seem to think about anything or my ignorance of the real world or my knowledge of history is way off base.

So as none of that is necessary to answer the question, let's return to it.

All things, being equal, what makes Citizen A who chose to do what was necessary to become prosperous responsible for supporting Citizen B who didn't choose to do what was necessary to become prosperous?

Two possibilities:

Civilization

Natural Selection

 

[mnbasketball]

All things, being equal, what makes Citizen A who chose to do what was necessary to become prosperous responsible for supporting Citizen B who didn't choose to do what was necessary to become prosperous? (foxfrye)

here you go old man!

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 8 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[Chris]

A trillion dollars for Iraq, Wall Street, and tax cuts for the wealthy, but no money for teachers or schools.

Is this a great country or what?

 

[Foxfyre]

All things, being equal, what makes Citizen A who chose to do what was necessary to become prosperous responsible for supporting Citizen B who didn't choose to do what was necessary to become prosperous? (foxfrye)

here you go old man!

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 8 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Sorry, I know my Constitution. And there isn't a single clause you posted that addresses the question.

 

[Foxfyre]

It is an interesting exercise though don't you think? Again I've never found a conservative who couldn't answer that question.

I've never found a liberal who could or would.

But I'll keep searching.

 

[georgephillip]

A trillion dollars for Iraq, Wall Street, and tax cuts for the wealthy, but no money for teachers or schools.

Is this a great country or what?

Just imagine how much greater it will be thirty years from now...