Charles Darwin and the "Tree of Life"

Smaterthanhick for your reading pleasure,it's time for you to catch up.

REAL GENOMIC DIFFERENCES

One of the downfalls of previous molecular genetic studies has been the limit at which chimpanzees and humans could be compared accurately. Scientists often would use only 30 or 40 known proteins or nucleic acid sequences, and then from those extrapolate their results for the entire genome. Today, however, we have the majority of the human genome sequences, practically all of which have been released and made public. This allows scientists to compare every single nucleotide base pair between humans and primates—something that was not possible prior to the human genome project. In January 2002, a study was published in which scientists had constructed and analyzed a first-generation human chimpanzee comparative genomic map. This study compared the alignments of 77,461 chimpanzee bacterial artificial chromosome (BAC) end sequences to human genomic sequences. Fujiyama and colleagues “detected candidate positions, including two clusters on human chromosome 21, that suggest large, nonrandom regions of differences between the two genomes” (2002, 295:131). In other words, the comparison revealed some “large” differences between the genomes of chimps and humans.

Amazingly, the authors found that only 48.6% of the whole human genome matched chimpanzee nucleotide sequences. [Only 4.8% of the human Y chromosome could be matched to chimpanzee sequences.] This study compared the alignments of 77,461 chimpanzee sequences to human genomic sequences obtained from public databases. Of these, 36,940 end sequences were unable to be mapped to the human genome (295:131). Almost 15,000 of those sequences that did not match human sequences were speculated to “correspond to unsequenced human regions or are from chimpanzee regions that have diverged substantially from humans or did not match for other unknown reasons” (295:132). While the authors noted that the quality and usefulness of the map should “increasingly improve as the finishing of the human genome sequence proceeds” (295:134), the data already support what creationists have said for years—the 98-99% figure representing DNA similarity is grossly misleading, as revealed in a study carried out by Roy Britten of the California Institute of Technology (see Britten, 2002).

Exactly how misleading came to light in an article—“Jumbled DNA Separates Chimps and Humans”—published in the October 25, 2002 issue of Science. The first three sentences of the article, written by Elizabeth Pennisi (a staff writer for Science), represented a “that was then, this is now” type of admission of defeat. She wrote:


For almost 30 years, researchers have asserted that the DNA of humans and chimps is at least 98.5% identical. Now research reported here last week at the American Society for Human Genetics meeting suggests that the two primate genomes might not be quite as similar after all. A closer look has uncovered nips and tucks of homologous sections of DNA that weren’t noticed in previous studies (298:719, emp. added).
Genomicists Kelly Frazer and David Cox of Perlegen Sciences in Mountain View, California, along with geneticists Evan Eichler and Devin Locke of Case Western University in Cleveland, Ohio, compared human and chimp DNA, and discovered a wide range of insertions and deletions (anywhere from between 200 bases to 10,000 bases). Cox commented: “The implications could be profound, because such genetic hiccups could disable entire genes, possibly explaining why our closest cousin seems so distant” (as quoted in Pennisi, 298:721).

Britten analyzed chimp and human genomes with a customized computer program. To quote Pennisi’s article:


He compared 779,000 bases of chimp DNA with the sequences of the human genome, both found in the public repository GenBank. Single-base changes accounted for 1.4% of the differences between the human and chimp genomes, and insertions and deletions accounted for an additional 3.4%, he reported in the 15 October [2002] Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Locke’s and Frazer’s groups didn’t commit to any new estimates of the similarity between the species, but both agree that the previously accepted 98.5% mark is too high (298:721, emp. added).
While Locke’s and Frazer’s team was unwilling to commit to any new estimate of the similarity between chimps and humans, Britten was not. In fact, he titled his article in the October 15, 2002 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, “Divergence between Samples of Chimpanzee and Human DNA Sequences is 5%” (Britten, 99:13633-13635). In the abstract accompanying the article, he wrote: “The conclusion is that the old saw that we share 98.5% of our DNA sequence with chimpanzee is probably in error. For this sample, a better estimate would be that 95% of the base pairs are exactly shared between chimpanzee and human DNA” (99:13633, emp. added). The news service at NewScientist.com reported the event as follows:


It has long been held that we share 98.5 per cent of our genetic material with our closest relatives. That now appears to be wrong. In fact, we share less than 95 per cent of our genetic material, a three-fold increase in the variation between us and chimps.
The new value came to light when Roy Britten of the California Institute of Technology became suspicious about the 98.5 per cent figure. Ironically, that number was originally derived from a technique that Britten himself developed decades ago at Caltech with colleague Dave Kohne. By measuring the temperature at which matching DNA of two species comes apart, you can work out how different they are.

But the technique only picks up a particular type of variation, called a single base substitution. These occur whenever a single “letter” differs in corresponding strands of DNA from the two species.

But there are two other major types of variation that the previous analyses ignored. “Insertions” occur whenever a whole section of DNA appears in one species but not in the corresponding strand of the other. Likewise, “deletions” mean that a piece of DNA is missing from one species.

Together, they are termed “indels,” and Britten seized his chance to evaluate the true variation between the two species when stretches of chimp DNA were recently published on the internet by teams from the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas, and from the University of Oklahoma.

When Britten compared five stretches of chimp DNA with the corresponding pieces of human DNA, he found that single base substitutions accounted for a difference of 1.4 per cent, very close to the expected figure.

But he also found that the DNA of both species was littered with indels. His comparisons revealed that they add around another 4.0 per cent to the genetic differences (see Coghlan, 2002, emp. added).

It seems that, as time passes and scientific studies increase, humans appear to be less like chimps after all. In a separate study, Barbulescu and colleagues also uncovered another major difference in the genomes of primates and humans. In their article “A HERV-K Provirus in Chimpanzees, Bonobos, and Gorillas, but not Humans,” the authors wrote: “These observations provide very strong evidence that, for some fraction of the genome, chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas are more closely related to each other than they are to humans” (2001, 11:779, emp. added). The data from these results go squarely against what evolutionists have contended for decades—that chimpanzees are closer genetically to humans than they are to gorillas. Another study using interspecies representational difference analysis (RDA) between humans and gorillas revealed gorilla-specific DNA sequences (Toder, et al., 2001)—that is, gorillas possess sequences of DNA that are not found in humans. The authors of this study suggested that sequences found in gorillas but not humans “could represent either ancient sequences that got lost in other species, such as human and orang-utan, or, more likely, recent sequences which evolved or originated specifically in the gorilla genome” (9:431).

The differences between chimpanzees and humans are not limited to genomic variances. In 1998, a structural difference between the cell surfaces of humans and apes was detected. After studying tissues and blood samples from the great apes, and sixty humans from various ethnic groups, Muchmore and colleagues discovered that human cells are missing a particular form of sialic acid (a type of sugar) found in all other mammals (1998, 107[2]:187). This sialic acid molecule is found on the surface of every cell in the body, and is thought to carry out multiple cellular tasks. This seemingly “miniscule” difference can have far-reaching effects, and might explain why surgeons were unable to transplant chimp organs into humans in the 1960s. With this in mind, we never should declare, with a simple wave of the hand, “chimps are almost identical to us” simply because of a large genetic overlap.


CONCLUSION

Homology (or similarity) does not prove common ancestry. The entire genome of the tiny nematode (Caenorhabditis elegans) also has been sequenced as a tangential study to the human genome project. Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75% have matches in the worm (see “A Tiny Worm Challenges Evolution”). Does this mean that we are 75% identical to a nematode worm? Just because living creatures share some genes with humans does not mean there is a linear ancestry. Biologist John Randall admitted this when he wrote:


The older textbooks on evolution make much of the idea of homology, pointing out the obvious resemblances between the skeletons of the limbs of different animals. Thus the “pentadactyl” [five bone—BH/BT] limb pattern is found in the arm of a man, the wing of a bird, and flipper of a whale—and this is held to indicate their common origin. Now if these various structures were transmitted by the same gene couples, varied from time to time by mutations and acted upon by environmental selection, the theory would make good sense. Unfortunately this is not the case. Homologous organs are now known to be produced by totally different gene complexes in the different species. The concept of homology in terms of similar genes handed on from a common ancestor has broken down... (as quoted in Fix, 1984, p.189).
Yet textbooks and teachers still continue to proclaim that humans and chimps are 98% genetically identical. The evidence clearly demonstrates vast molecular differences—differences that can be attributed to the fact that humans, unlike animals, were created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27; see Lyons and Thompson, 2002a, 2002b). Elaine Morgan commented on this difference.


Considering the very close genetic relationship that has been established by comparison of biochemical properties of blood proteins, protein structure and DNA and immunological responses, the differences between a man and a chimpanzee are more astonishing than the resemblances. They include structural differences in the skeleton, the muscles, the skin, and the brain; differences in posture associated with a unique method of locomotion; differences in social organization; and finally the acquisition of speech and tool-using, together with the dramatic increase in intellectual ability which has led scientists to name their own species Homo sapiens sapiens—wise wise man. During the period when these remarkable evolutionary changes were taking place, other closely related ape-like species changed only very slowly, and with far less remarkable results. It is hard to resist the conclusion that something must have happened to the ancestors of Homo sapiens which did not happen to the ancestors of gorillas and chimpanzees (1989, pp. 17-18, emp. added).

Apologetics Press - Do Human and Chimpanzee DNA Indicate an Evolutionary Relationship?
 
In the future, I recommend you read things for yourself and make points using your own words instead of copying and pasting things from the internet, as it makes you look like a moron, especially in light of the fact that I have already addressed the points in this paper in a link I offered you, and you clearly didn't read, about 4 posts ago.

But to take my own advice and paraphrase for you: genomes are filled with large amounts of junk which undergo lots of random mutation. Alterations to these areas produce no actual changes to the organism, so they are unnoticed. When a scientist says we are 98% similar to apes, the verifiable fact is referring to genes that are actually used. For example, I just looked up the human enzyme called lipase, searched the US government's chimpanzee genome database, and found a match that was 98% identical. You can do the same, if you were actually interested in learning about this topic. But you're not. You're an uneducated and gullible hick who needs to stay ignorant. If you actually learned anything about biology, it may fracture your fragile faith.

But let's go back to the idea of credentials. This article you offer now is yet again unpublished. It's pasted from a blog that has other such articles as "The Laws of Thermodynamics Don’t Apply to the Universe" and "How Long Were Adam and Eve in the Garden?". Again, the author has done no actual research, did not have his article reviewed by anyone, and could not actually get this article published.

Here's that list of things you are avoiding, still including things you yourself said were true but can in no way support. This once again shows that educated people such as myself have no trouble fielding all questions, whereas creationists continue to scratch their heads in stupidity and pretend verifiable evidence doesn't exist. My kind fosters transparency and education. Your type hides in the shadows, knows little, and nips at heels when convenient.

  • How do you explain vestigiality?
  • How do you explain dwarfs being born to non-dwarf parents?
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has pieces that otherwise belong on the end in the middle? Try using your own words.
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has two centromeres? Your article doesn't even try to refute that one.
  • How do you explain de novo mutation?
  • How do you explain silent mutations?
  • How do you explain heterozygote advantage in select areas?
  • Which species have a different genetic code than humans? You claimed 18 did, and yet you appear to be unable to name 1.
  • Have you figured out what evolution is yet?
 
Most evolutionists subscribe to a natural process =without intelligent design ,rejecting obvious evidece of intelligent design.If evolutionists are truly trying to find out how God did it, they wouldn't be so quick to deny obvious evidence for intelligent design.

What is "intelligent" about autoimmune pathologies, cancer, and joints that wear out before their time?
 
Most evolutionists subscribe to a natural process =without intelligent design ,rejecting obvious evidece of intelligent design.If evolutionists are truly trying to find out how God did it, they wouldn't be so quick to deny obvious evidence for intelligent design.

What is "intelligent" about autoimmune pathologies, cancer, and joints that wear out before their time?

I believe aging was the process in which God handed down the punishment for sin. He also struck many with bacteria that over time changes and adapts and proves to be harmful to all living things.

Evidence for intelliget design would be things like red and white blood cells. How eyes dilate according to the amount of light. To continue the creations production ,gender and sex organs. Can you honestly think an unintelligent process was capable of producing the brain ?

That is just a few.
 
No.

I believe what we see is adaptations and it comes from recombination of genes and the information was always there to help with the adaptations and the adaptations are limited.

Then surely you reject intelligent design, which does accept the mechanics of evolution to describe speciation.

Speciation within a kind i accept not outside the kind. I believe speciation is a result of recombination of gene,information that was always present.
 
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In the future, I recommend you read things for yourself and make points using your own words instead of copying and pasting things from the internet, as it makes you look like a moron, especially in light of the fact that I have already addressed the points in this paper in a link I offered you, and you clearly didn't read, about 4 posts ago.

But to take my own advice and paraphrase for you: genomes are filled with large amounts of junk which undergo lots of random mutation. Alterations to these areas produce no actual changes to the organism, so they are unnoticed. When a scientist says we are 98% similar to apes, the verifiable fact is referring to genes that are actually used. For example, I just looked up the human enzyme called lipase, searched the US government's chimpanzee genome database, and found a match that was 98% identical. You can do the same, if you were actually interested in learning about this topic. But you're not. You're an uneducated and gullible hick who needs to stay ignorant. If you actually learned anything about biology, it may fracture your fragile faith.

But let's go back to the idea of credentials. This article you offer now is yet again unpublished. It's pasted from a blog that has other such articles as "The Laws of Thermodynamics Don’t Apply to the Universe" and "How Long Were Adam and Eve in the Garden?". Again, the author has done no actual research, did not have his article reviewed by anyone, and could not actually get this article published.

Here's that list of things you are avoiding, still including things you yourself said were true but can in no way support. This once again shows that educated people such as myself have no trouble fielding all questions, whereas creationists continue to scratch their heads in stupidity and pretend verifiable evidence doesn't exist. My kind fosters transparency and education. Your type hides in the shadows, knows little, and nips at heels when convenient.

  • How do you explain vestigiality?
  • How do you explain dwarfs being born to non-dwarf parents?
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has pieces that otherwise belong on the end in the middle? Try using your own words.
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has two centromeres? Your article doesn't even try to refute that one.
  • How do you explain de novo mutation?
  • How do you explain silent mutations?
  • How do you explain heterozygote advantage in select areas?
  • Which species have a different genetic code than humans? You claimed 18 did, and yet you appear to be unable to name 1.
  • Have you figured out what evolution is yet?

You are making this entirely to personal for my taste. But just a reminder i believe you were the one to turn to outside sources first. Oh and one more thing all that work was done and my source provided the article with who said and did what was quoted.

As far as your questions are concerned there would have to be an answer to Haldane’s dilemma before spending more time chasing fairytales.




Nature 282, 189 - 194 (08 November 1979); doi:10.1038/282189a0



A different genetic code in human mitochondria


B. G. Barrell, A. T. Bankier & J. Drouin*


MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology, Hills Road, Cambridge, UK
*Present address: Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of California, San Francisco, California 94143.





Comparison of the human mitochrondrial DNA sequence of the cytochrome oxidase subunit II gene and the sequence of the corresponding beef heart protein shows that UGA is used as a tryptophan codon and not as a termination codon and suggests that AU A may be a methionine and not an isoleucine codon. The cytochrome oxidase II gene is contiguous at its 5' end with a tRNAAsp gene and there are only 25 bases at its 3' end before a tRNALys gene. These tRNAs are different from all other known tRNA sequences.
 
Most evolutionists subscribe to a natural process =without intelligent design ,rejecting obvious evidece of intelligent design.If evolutionists are truly trying to find out how God did it, they wouldn't be so quick to deny obvious evidence for intelligent design.

What is "intelligent" about autoimmune pathologies, cancer, and joints that wear out before their time?

I believe aging was the process in which God handed down the punishment for sin. He also struck many with bacteria that over time changes and adapts and proves to be harmful to all living things.

Evidence for intelliget design would be things like red and white blood cells. How eyes dilate according to the amount of light. To continue the creations production ,gender and sex organs. Can you honestly think an unintelligent process was capable of producing the brain ?

That is just a few.

Obviously I think an "unntelligent process" was capable of creating the the human body. I could also point out some un-intelligent facets of red and white blood cells. For example, hemoglobin binds carbon monoxide, a toxin, with 200 times the affinity that it binds oxygen. Also, if the 2+ iron becomes oxidized to 3+, which occurs with many medications we take, it generally causes problems too. That's not to mention all the leukemias and myelomas (neoplasms of white blood cells) and the generally bad idea to put the brain in an non-expansive cranial vault so that even a minor bruise can cause instant death.

If you want to believe that God created pathology to punish us for wickedness, that is your prerogative. Again, using your criteria of WBCs, I won't ask you to reconcile why ALL generally strikes children, who I have a hard time believing that God wants to punish.

I won't ask you to reconcile it, because the religious have been struggling with the basic question of "Why would a good God allow people to suffer" since the dawn of time. The Judeo-Christian religion even has the parable of Job to account for it (BTW, I thought God promised never to personally inflict harm on mankind after that?).

However, in the eyes of science, none of these philosophic, esoteric issues are relevant. Science makes no provisions for the supernatural as the supernatural can't be accounted for in the scientific method.

If you want to argue "God did this", that is your obvious right. It's just not a scientific arguement. It's a theological one.

Therefore, trying to argue a scientific theory (evolution) with a religious one (creation) isn't merely apples and oranges.

It's apples and footballs.
 
Speciation within a kind i accept not outside the kind. I believe speciation is a result of recombination of gene,information that was always present.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what you accept. You are entitled to your beliefs. You are not entitled to call your personal beliefs "scientific".

Only creationists get wrapped up on the concept of macro and micro-evolution. To people who actually understand evolutionary theory, it's like claiming 25 pennies is not quantitatively the same as a quarter.

Furthermore, your notion that the same genetic information has always been present is just wrong. Base insertion mutations are a well recognized and studied fact of genetics.

To use your red blood cell example: There is a distinct set of three base pair codes that code for all the proteins that make up the beta subgroup of hemoglobin. For most people, it's the same genetic information. However, for some African Americans, a single base is changed, which causes a substitution of a single (but different) amino acid, which causes the hemoglobin to form a certain configuration under periods of low oxygen and stress, which causes them to polymerize. When you sum that up, the entire Red Blood Cell sickles and we have the disease known as sickle cell anemia.

That genetic information was not always in the gene pool from the dawn of time. It's a mutation that gave rise to a novel phenotype and pathology.
 
I believe aging was the process in which God handed down the punishment for sin. He also struck many with bacteria that over time changes and adapts and proves to be harmful to all living things.
That's because you don't understand either aging or bacteria. Whatever you don't understand, which is a lot, gets turned into magical thinking.

Irreducible complexity has been shot down time after time. We need only look towards embryology for answers on development. Again, this is a topic you don't understand, and attribute to magic.


Nature 282, 189 - 194 (08 November 1979); doi:10.1038/282189a0
A different genetic code in human mitochondria
Good job! You found one very well known and studied area that uses a different genetic code. You said there were 18 SPECIES that use a different code though. Human mitochondria are not really different species from humans though. We're well aware that mitochondria have a different genetic code, because they are in fact ancient symbiotes in every one of our cells. Think of them like old bacteria that just melded into the scenery. It's why they replicate separately from the rest of the cell and its organelles. They also undergo independent mutations, which is what produces heteroplasmy: large differences in mitochondria within a single organism, not to mention within and between species, even though they all started out relatively the same at conception. Unfortunately for you, the evidence provided by mitochondria only support evolution. I'd ask you what other conclusion you could draw from the additional knowledge about mitochondria I just offered you, but you have yet to do this for ANY of the evidence you've been presented with to date.

You are making this entirely to personal for my taste. But just a reminder i believe you were the one to turn to outside sources first. Oh and one more thing all that work was done and my source provided the article with who said and did what was quoted.
I'm making it personal? Half the questions are things YOU brought up and can't support. Did you or did you not state 18 species use a different genetic code than humans? And yet you've provided zero. Did you or did you not ask for an example of "new information" in genes, which I provided examples of not only in human dwarfism but in several fruit fly genes as well, and you then pretended didn't exist? These are YOUR issues, and now you're running away because you can't support a lick of what you say.

Sure I can understand how my point regarding chromosomal fusion is above your head and something you don't want to deal with because you didn't bring it up, but the rest of the questions are your own issues you now run from; you now make excuses to ignore. How cowardly. How shameful. But this is the total extent of the creationist argument. Perhaps you should take some accountability for your claims next time.


Here's the list of questions you can't answer and must pretend doesn't exist to maintain your fragile faith:
  • How do you explain dwarfs being born to non-dwarf parents?
  • How do you explain de novo mutation?
  • How do you explain silent mutations?
  • How do you explain heterozygote advantage in select areas?
  • How do you explain heteroplasmy?
  • How do you explain vestigiality?
  • Which species have a different autosomal genetic code than humans? You claimed 18 did, and yet you appear to be unable to name 1.
 
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Most evolutionists subscribe to a natural process =without intelligent design ,rejecting obvious evidece of intelligent design.If evolutionists are truly trying to find out how God did it, they wouldn't be so quick to deny obvious evidence for intelligent design.

What is "intelligent" about autoimmune pathologies, cancer, and joints that wear out before their time?

I believe aging was the process in which God handed down the punishment for sin. He also struck many with bacteria that over time changes and adapts and proves to be harmful to all living things.

Evidence for intelliget design would be things like red and white blood cells. How eyes dilate according to the amount of light. To continue the creations production ,gender and sex organs. Can you honestly think an unintelligent process was capable of producing the brain ?

That is just a few.

LOL. Then your kind God is really some sort of monster. He creates us as we are, then punishes us for being that way.

No, there is only evidence for intelligent design in the minds of very unintelligent people.
 
What is "intelligent" about autoimmune pathologies, cancer, and joints that wear out before their time?

I believe aging was the process in which God handed down the punishment for sin. He also struck many with bacteria that over time changes and adapts and proves to be harmful to all living things.

Evidence for intelliget design would be things like red and white blood cells. How eyes dilate according to the amount of light. To continue the creations production ,gender and sex organs. Can you honestly think an unintelligent process was capable of producing the brain ?

That is just a few.

LOL. Then your kind God is really some sort of monster. He creates us as we are, then punishes us for being that way.

No, there is only evidence for intelligent design in the minds of very unintelligent people.

I often wonder why today so called educated have a problem with law that lives in a society that is based on the rule of law. That's right ,there should be no punishment for law breakers right ? Because god did not provide all the answers you believe its illogical to believe an unseen force. God is like the wind you can't see the wind but you can see its effects. It's even funny to see so many can believe a natural process can create obvious products of design. You people come here for the wrong reason, you are evidently impressed with your education to the point you wish to show it off . I will give you learning your theory produces a strong vocabulary but outside of that there is not much mind power involved in what you believe to be true. Anyone with a strong imagination can create such a theory and then purposely bend explanations of the evidence to make it fit the the theory. Unfortunately I see the same things from fellow Christians,they wish to believe certain things and twist scripture to fit their doctrine. In the end I guess it just comes down to whatever floats your boat. But I can't help worrying about many of you because I have read about the end and where god said the intelligent are cunning and they will try to mislead many but will fail and they shall pray for the mountains to cover them up and them from the one seated on the white horse. They will die because of their intelligence. Now maybe you can understand why I am here.
 
I read about both sides of the argument and that is what most of you do,over very few here are actually researching the evidence but because you have bought into the theory you repeat maybe in your own words what you have read. I am still waiting for smaterthanhick to provide the new information that arose from mutations of the offspring of the fruit fly. He still has not addressed the dilemma concerning mutations.
 
  • How do you explain vestigiality?
  • How do you explain dwarfs being born to non-dwarf parents?
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has pieces that otherwise belong on the end in the middle? Try using your own words.
  • How do you explain the fact that one of our chromosomes has two centromeres? Your article doesn't even try to refute that one.
  • How do you explain de novo mutation?
  • How do you explain silent mutations?
  • How do you explain heterozygote advantage in select areas?
  • Which species have a different genetic code than humans? You claimed 18 did, and yet you appear to be unable to name 1.
  • Have you figured out what evolution is yet?
God did it!
 
God is like the wind you can't see the wind but you can see its effects.
Correct, we can't see the wind, but we can quantify it's effects reproducibly. You similarly can't see the oxygen you breath, yet when you go to the hospital, doctors can treat breathing problems with effective precision. We know this information from drawing conclusions from reproducible evidence by studying the effects of these things on the physical world. You can't compare God to the wind because God has NO effects on the physical world, let alone reproducible effects that can produce any evidence whatsoever. If you want to liken God to something in the world you can't see, the better analogy is Santa Claus, ghosts, and invisible unicorns.

Evolution is not a very good designer. If you knew much about the topic, you'd see it just sticks things in and hopes it works. That's why things break down. You're foolish if you think any part of the natural world works so well as to be designed at the genetic level. Genetics shows us that is not the case, but you don't understand genetics, and you think no one else does because the words are unfamiliar to you.

You people come here for the wrong reason, you are evidently impressed with your education to the point you wish to show it off . I will give you learning your theory produces a strong vocabulary but outside of that there is not much mind power involved in what you believe to be true. Anyone with a strong imagination can create such a theory and then purposely bend explanations of the evidence to make it fit the the theory.
You are evidently impressed with your lack of education to the point you wish to show it off. It's interesting you use the word "imagination". I offer you reproducible verified evidence and ask you to use your own imagination or reasoning ability to come up with a conclusion as to how it all makes sense. You avoid such scenarios time and time again. You can't even IMAGINE a story that explains the facts. It's a good thing you're not a detective!

They will die because of their intelligence. Now maybe you can understand why I am here.
And you will die too. Your mortality has nothing to do with intelligence. Only your insecurity about that mortality does.

I read about both sides of the argument and that is what most of you do,over very few here are actually researching the evidence but because you have bought into the theory you repeat maybe in your own words what you have read. I am still waiting for smaterthanhick to provide the new information that arose from mutations of the offspring of the fruit fly. He still has not addressed the dilemma concerning mutations.
I have provided the new information that arose from mutations in fruit flies.

Every bit of primary literature has been from direct biological research. You may not like or agree with the conclusions drawn from the factual evidence of that research, but upon asking you to provide your own explanation, you are continually at a loss. You pretend it doesn't exist. You claim I haven't provided anything about the fruit fly when in fact I gave you a LIST of direct research articles, click here for them, which explain multiple new genes and "new information" in that species. I have also given you examples of "new information" in humans.

You can't even say why the evidence is incorrect because doing so would ACKNOWLEDGE it exists, and doing THAT would obliterate your frail understanding of the topic. That's why I have continually asked the same questions at the end of my posts. To get you to explain how this undeniable "new information" can possibly exist. How dwarfs can come from non-dwarf parents. How fruit flies can produce new information. You have yet to offer any explanation, and you never will.
 
I read about both sides of the argument and that is what most of you do,over very few here are actually researching the evidence but because you have bought into the theory you repeat maybe in your own words what you have read. I am still waiting for smaterthanhick to provide the new information that arose from mutations of the offspring of the fruit fly. He still has not addressed the dilemma concerning mutations.

If you want to chalk it all up to God, it basically becomes a circular argument. The main point is this, you can overlay the supernatural on a scientific theory.

You are entitled to your own belief system, you just aren't entitled to call it a "scientific theory".

This is the fundamental problem the ID crew ran into in court and why they got shellacked at the Dover trial.
 
I read about both sides of the argument and that is what most of you do,over very few here are actually researching the evidence but because you have bought into the theory you repeat maybe in your own words what you have read. I am still waiting for smaterthanhick to provide the new information that arose from mutations of the offspring of the fruit fly. He still has not addressed the dilemma concerning mutations.

If you want to chalk it all up to God, it basically becomes a circular argument. The main point is this, you can overlay the supernatural on a scientific theory.

You are entitled to your own belief system, you just aren't entitled to call it a "scientific theory".

This is the fundamental problem the ID crew ran into in court and why they got shellacked at the Dover trial.

I will when I get the chance present the arguement that mutations is not the mechanism to macro-evolution. Macro-evolution and micro-evolution are independent of each other. One actually takes place while the other does not. Your side in their opinions is going way beyond the adaptations that is observed.
 
I'd ask you why you think they are at all different, but you have yet to answer a single question that prompts you to support your own claims yet.

The fact still remains that bacteria adapt and gain antibiotic resistance through random mutation, creating "new information". The mechanisms behind bacteria producing these random mutations are the EXACT same mechanisms behind mutation in every other species. No creationist has even figured out a way to explain why mutation somehow just stops after one celled organisms. Mutation happens all the time, even in you right now. Cancer is the unfortunate side effect of unwanted mutations giving cells enhanced abilities. I doubt you'd deny that cancer exists, but I take it you will ignore this point like you do all the others that show you to be incorrect.
 
I'd ask you why you think they are at all different, but you have yet to answer a single question that prompts you to support your own claims yet.

The fact still remains that bacteria adapt and gain antibiotic resistance through random mutation, creating "new information". The mechanisms behind bacteria producing these random mutations are the EXACT same mechanisms behind mutation in every other species. No creationist has even figured out a way to explain why mutation somehow just stops after one celled organisms. Mutation happens all the time, even in you right now. Cancer is the unfortunate side effect of unwanted mutations giving cells enhanced abilities. I doubt you'd deny that cancer exists, but I take it you will ignore this point like you do all the others that show you to be incorrect.

Macroevolution is change from one kind of life to a distinct new kind of life. Microevolution is small changes within a group. Talk origins site which is pro macroevolution gives the definitions of the terms. The argument I will make concerning mutations is the conditions needed for mutations to promote macroevolution,I will be pointing out the contradictions of the conditions and show the contradictions make the theory an impossibility .
 
Yes, it's easy to define a made up term. Nonetheless, what you and even some scientists foolishly refer to as macroevolution utilizes the exact same mechanism of "microevolution": new mutation producing changes in an organism. Now you already know this is proven fact, as bacteria gain antibiotic resistance. So given that fact, why is it that you think mutation cannot occur in larger organisms like fruit flies or humans?

Oh, right. That's a question about your own beliefs again: those things you try so hard to avoid.
 

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