Carry your papers with you!

[bucs90]

wrong!!!


no criminal crime. in a civil situation they can print you and let you go. no way police can detain you until Id is verified. I know the law.

Yes. They can. They do it every day in every state. Civil courts aren't granted access to NCIC and DMV records. That takes a law enforcement certification, and civil courts don't provide those.

But you can't grasp the idea of what they "can do" and what they "practice". DMV systems online go down often. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to detain someone for a speeding offense b/c the DMV isn't coming back with info. Could, but don't.

Have at em! I'm got a date with a giant flying turtle (Gamera) (I don't know why but I put a 50s/60s sci-fi movie on and I'm asleep in five minutes. )

I can tell you, he lives in his own leftist fantasy world. You have a tall order, talking reason to him.

SWEET!!! I bougth the entire original Godzilla collection last month and it's a late night favorite. I bet if Godzilla's ass came out of the ocean and immigrated to AZ no one would check his papers hahaha!!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Oh heaven forbid the cops are able to enforce the law against illegal immigration!!!!!!!!!!!!

they won't be enforcing laws against illegal immigration.. they will be suspecting people after the fact of already having become illegal immigrants., nothing local police will do can stop an illegal alien from coming here. asking police to verify citizenship of everyone stopped for whatever reason smacks of fascism. it's a fishing expedition and true American patriots want no part of a fascist sate.

Putting bait cars out is a fishing expedition to catch car thieves but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Is it "fascist" to have the FBI pose as underage girls on the internet to catch pedophiles or have bait cars to catch car thieves?

Then it isn't wrong to ask someone for their ID, even if you think it is "fishing" for illegals. If they are breaking the law, "fishing" for them is PART of ENFORCING THAT LAW!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!

You liberals don't like it because you know unless you guys get enough vote fraud from those illegals, you are toast in November and 2012.

Everyone KNOWs that's what liberals are really worried about.

Don't even try to argue otherwise.

Liberals?

I want illegals deported. I don't want the state being given extra police powers to do so. Fishing expeditions to catch illegals would be fine with me, if were done targeting illegals. But how does on target illegals? Go after Spanish speakers or dark skinned people? What about European illegals?

The British in America, tried to catch rebels by treating all Colonists as suspects. Didn't work out so well for them.

you admit to favoring laws that hide their true aim?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You're not getting it.

All citizens have a DL, ID or customer number card from their home state DMV. You cant get one without a SS number, and anyone with a SS number has one whether they like it or not. THAT is your proof of citizenship. And by law in all 50 states you must have that with you. But, without another violation, cops can't stop you and ask for it. Under a Terry Stop, however, you are required to prove identity, through DL, ID, CN, and thus, citizenship.

Like it or not, you are required to provide this on any legal stop by the law. It proves your identity. Without citizenship, you wont' have this proof. Next is a passport or immigration papers. Absent these you will probably be detained until ID is proven. It's fact. Sorry.

wrong!!!


no criminal crime. in a civil situation they can print you and let you go. no way police can detain you until Id is verified. I know the law.

Yes. They can. They do it every day in every state. Civil courts aren't granted access to NCIC and DMV records. That takes a law enforcement certification, and civil courts don't provide those.

But you can't grasp the idea of what they "can do" and what they "practice". DMV systems online go down often. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to detain someone for a speeding offense b/c the DMV isn't coming back with info. Could, but don't.

If a person doesn't have ID, and they are stopped they can be detained and printed. If nothing comes up, they cannot be held forever because they are not in the database. I know it's hard for you to comprehend as it is for some cops too, but many a police dept has been in court on this issue...and lost.

If one chooses not to provide ID and identity cannot be established, you are saying the state can take away ones freedom?

 

[teapartysamurai]

Yes. They can. They do it every day in every state. Civil courts aren't granted access to NCIC and DMV records. That takes a law enforcement certification, and civil courts don't provide those.

But you can't grasp the idea of what they "can do" and what they "practice". DMV systems online go down often. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to detain someone for a speeding offense b/c the DMV isn't coming back with info. Could, but don't.

Have at em! I'm got a date with a giant flying turtle (Gamera) (I don't know why but I put a 50s/60s sci-fi movie on and I'm asleep in five minutes. )

I can tell you, he lives in his own leftist fantasy world. You have a tall order, talking reason to him.

SWEET!!! I bougth the entire original Godzilla collection last month and it's a late night favorite. I bet if Godzilla's ass came out of the ocean and immigrated to AZ no one would check his papers hahaha!!

Me too! I have the same collection. And I got the original Japanese version of Rodan. I hear they are going to release the original (Japanese version) of Gamera AND they just released the blu-ray of Gojira!!!!!!!! Oh baby!!!!!

If they release the blu-rays of all those Godzilla, I'm going to be so pissed I wasted my money getting them on DVD when I could have saved my dough for blu-rays

Oh well, enough of this off topic-ness. Keep at 'em!

 

[bucs90]

wrong!!!


no criminal crime. in a civil situation they can print you and let you go. no way police can detain you until Id is verified. I know the law.

Yes. They can. They do it every day in every state. Civil courts aren't granted access to NCIC and DMV records. That takes a law enforcement certification, and civil courts don't provide those.

But you can't grasp the idea of what they "can do" and what they "practice". DMV systems online go down often. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to detain someone for a speeding offense b/c the DMV isn't coming back with info. Could, but don't.

If a person doesn't have ID, and they are stopped they can be detained and printed. If nothing comes up, they cannot be held forever because they are not in the database. I know it's hard for you to comprehend as it is for some cops too, but many a police dept has been in court on this issue...and lost.

If one chooses not to provide ID and identity cannot be established, you are saying the state can take away ones freedom?

Boy oh boy are you an ignorant libby.

If a person is stopped, they have violated a law.
If they are detained, and printed, then they are being booked and charged.
If they are charged, an ID must be verified to place the charging document under.
The person will be held indefinitely until an ID is verified.
They can be held, and it won't be forever. If they were born in the US, they have a social security number. Once that is found, at minimum a DMV customer number exists and thus an ID.
If a person is detained without a legal charge, then asking for ID does not fall under Terry Stop, thus making it an unlawful detention. The unrelated legal charge kicks in the mandatory identification for the charging document, and thus, the indefinite detention until proper identification is found for prosecution. Ya can't issue a bench warrant with a fingerprint as the suspect's name. Duh!

Yes. I'm saying if you are taken into custody, and no ID is found, your freedom will be gone until one is provided or located. Unless you are an illegal alien, at which point ICE will deport you.

If the law worked the way YOU think it works, then a person who is wanted could never be arrested as they could just refuse to provide ID and thus be released.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about, because earlier you argued cops cannot detain someone for no ID, now you are saying they can. You are flip-flopping as I continue your education. Lucky for you, I'm offering free tuition tonight.

 

[bucs90]

they won't be enforcing laws against illegal immigration.. they will be suspecting people after the fact of already having become illegal immigrants., nothing local police will do can stop an illegal alien from coming here. asking police to verify citizenship of everyone stopped for whatever reason smacks of fascism. it's a fishing expedition and true American patriots want no part of a fascist sate.

Putting bait cars out is a fishing expedition to catch car thieves but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Is it "fascist" to have the FBI pose as underage girls on the internet to catch pedophiles or have bait cars to catch car thieves?

Then it isn't wrong to ask someone for their ID, even if you think it is "fishing" for illegals. If they are breaking the law, "fishing" for them is PART of ENFORCING THAT LAW!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!

You liberals don't like it because you know unless you guys get enough vote fraud from those illegals, you are toast in November and 2012.

Everyone KNOWs that's what liberals are really worried about.

Don't even try to argue otherwise.

Liberals?

I want illegals deported. I don't want the state being given extra police powers to do so. Fishing expeditions to catch illegals would be fine with me, if were done targeting illegals. But how does on target illegals? Go after Spanish speakers or dark skinned people? What about European illegals?

The British in America, tried to catch rebels by treating all Colonists as suspects. Didn't work out so well for them.

you admit to favoring laws that hide their true aim?

The state isn't getting power to deport. It's getting power to detain and transfer custody to feds. Only feds can deport. Read up on your laws.

You target illegals the same way you target drugs and fugitives. You continue making lawful stops for other violations. Speeding. Car theft. Shoplifting. Expired license tags. Whatever. If the suspect then cannot provide a DL, ID, etc, no passport, no immigration papers, etc, then run their name and birthday through NCIC and DMV. Nothing coming back? Suspicion arises. Ask for SS number. No SS number? Well, then ask where they live. If they have a DL from another nation (Mexico, Russia, etc).

If you stopped someone for speeding, and they

1- have no DL
2- have no record in database
3- have a Mexican driver's license
4- don't speak English
5- don't have a passport
5 - don't have a greencard
6- can't provide a valid SS number

Well, thats what those in law enforcement call a clue. Notice "race" is not listed, as that doesn't really matter.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yes. They can. They do it every day in every state. Civil courts aren't granted access to NCIC and DMV records. That takes a law enforcement certification, and civil courts don't provide those.

But you can't grasp the idea of what they "can do" and what they "practice". DMV systems online go down often. Sometimes it's not worth the effort to detain someone for a speeding offense b/c the DMV isn't coming back with info. Could, but don't.

If a person doesn't have ID, and they are stopped they can be detained and printed. If nothing comes up, they cannot be held forever because they are not in the database. I know it's hard for you to comprehend as it is for some cops too, but many a police dept has been in court on this issue...and lost.

If one chooses not to provide ID and identity cannot be established, you are saying the state can take away ones freedom?

Boy oh boy are you an ignorant libby.

1) If a person is stopped, they have violated a law.

2) If they are detained, and printed, then they are being booked and charged.

If they are charged, an ID must be verified to place the charging document under.
The person will be held indefinitely until an ID is verified.
They can be held, and it won't be forever. If they were born in the US, they have a social security number. Once that is found, at minimum a DMV customer number exists and thus an ID.

If a person is detained without a legal charge, then asking for ID does not fall under Terry Stop, thus making it an unlawful detention. The unrelated legal charge kicks in the mandatory identification for the charging document, and thus, the indefinite detention until proper identification is found for prosecution. Ya can't issue a bench warrant with a fingerprint as the suspect's name. Duh!

Yes. I'm saying if you are taken into custody, and no ID is found, your freedom will be gone until one is provided or located. Unless you are an illegal alien, at which point ICE will deport you.

3) If the law worked the way YOU think it works, then a person who is wanted could never be arrested as they could just refuse to provide ID and thus be released.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about, because earlier you argued cops cannot detain someone for no ID, now you are saying they can. You are flip-flopping as I continue your education. Lucky for you, I'm offering free tuition tonight.

1) I was stopped I violated no law. Happens all the time.

2) nope. wrong again. I was detained supposedly for the purposes of identification pursuant to CA. state law. Only that law was applied after the fact.

CA. will do a thumb print for ticketable offenses...misdemeanor civil offenses..if a state ID is not present at a stop (my case, walking). It is for the purposes of confirming ID. If no match comes back the thumb print is in the database for next time. One cannot be held if a match is not confirmed. A bogus state ID would make for a walk with the ticket.

It is against CA state law to take me in as they did.

3) wrong again. a person who is stopped because they resemble a wanted fugitive would have to produce ID as they would be stopped for a suspected criminal offense. a wanted fugitive who has a fake state Id and is stopped for a ticketable offense must be let go with a ticket. No ID, a thumb print would be taken and a match would be found.


Don't pass GO. Don't collect $200.

don't tell me. I know the law and have read the decisions of the state Attorneys General and the courts.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Putting bait cars out is a fishing expedition to catch car thieves but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Is it "fascist" to have the FBI pose as underage girls on the internet to catch pedophiles or have bait cars to catch car thieves?

Then it isn't wrong to ask someone for their ID, even if you think it is "fishing" for illegals. If they are breaking the law, "fishing" for them is PART of ENFORCING THAT LAW!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!

You liberals don't like it because you know unless you guys get enough vote fraud from those illegals, you are toast in November and 2012.

Everyone KNOWs that's what liberals are really worried about.

Don't even try to argue otherwise.

Liberals?

I want illegals deported. I don't want the state being given extra police powers to do so. Fishing expeditions to catch illegals would be fine with me, if were done targeting illegals. But how does on target illegals? Go after Spanish speakers or dark skinned people? What about European illegals?

The British in America, tried to catch rebels by treating all Colonists as suspects. Didn't work out so well for them.

you admit to favoring laws that hide their true aim?

The state isn't getting power to deport. It's getting power to detain and transfer custody to feds. Only feds can deport. Read up on your laws.

You target illegals the same way you target drugs and fugitives. You continue making lawful stops for other violations. Speeding. Car theft. Shoplifting. Expired license tags. Whatever. If the suspect then cannot provide a DL, ID, etc, no passport, no immigration papers, etc, then run their name and birthday through NCIC and DMV. Nothing coming back? Suspicion arises. Ask for SS number. No SS number? Well, then ask where they live. If they have a DL from another nation (Mexico, Russia, etc).

If you stopped someone for speeding, and they

1- have no DL
2- have no record in database
3- have a Mexican driver's license
4- don't speak English
5- don't have a passport
5 - don't have a greencard
6- can't provide a valid SS number

Well, thats what those in law enforcement call a clue. Notice "race" is not listed, as that doesn't really matter.

a big to do was made by Arizona politicians that race would not be the only factor, now they say it will not be a factor in setting up stings.


stings are legal.I have no problem with stings. Local police doing immigration policing is troubling in that it takes away resources. If illegal immigrants are the cause of a majority of crime, that would be a special case. Are illegal immigrants the cause of much crime?

How does one bait them and not legal immigrants and citizens? it's not like a drunk driving road side thing. there everyone gets checked. everyone.

 

[oreo]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Now you do remember the drivers license issue during the campaign season--where our dear President stated: "Illegals didn't come here to drive." Illegals get drivers licenses--in about every state in this country. They look the same as anyone who is a citizen--there is nothing different about them--or that would indicate that they are here on a temporary visa--or a complete illegal entrant to this country.

So drivers licenses ARE NOT in any way proof of citizenship--or legal immigrant to this country. The "only" real proof of citizenship in this country is a US passport. Furthermore immigrants to enter this country legally--are required to carry on their person at all times a green card--indicating they did cross our borders "legally."

And when Americans go to Mexico--we too are required to carry on our person--the temporary visa we received upon entering.

 

[bucs90]

If a person doesn't have ID, and they are stopped they can be detained and printed. If nothing comes up, they cannot be held forever because they are not in the database. I know it's hard for you to comprehend as it is for some cops too, but many a police dept has been in court on this issue...and lost.

If one chooses not to provide ID and identity cannot be established, you are saying the state can take away ones freedom?

Boy oh boy are you an ignorant libby.

1) If a person is stopped, they have violated a law.

2) If they are detained, and printed, then they are being booked and charged.

If they are charged, an ID must be verified to place the charging document under.
The person will be held indefinitely until an ID is verified.
They can be held, and it won't be forever. If they were born in the US, they have a social security number. Once that is found, at minimum a DMV customer number exists and thus an ID.

If a person is detained without a legal charge, then asking for ID does not fall under Terry Stop, thus making it an unlawful detention. The unrelated legal charge kicks in the mandatory identification for the charging document, and thus, the indefinite detention until proper identification is found for prosecution. Ya can't issue a bench warrant with a fingerprint as the suspect's name. Duh!

Yes. I'm saying if you are taken into custody, and no ID is found, your freedom will be gone until one is provided or located. Unless you are an illegal alien, at which point ICE will deport you.

3) If the law worked the way YOU think it works, then a person who is wanted could never be arrested as they could just refuse to provide ID and thus be released.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about, because earlier you argued cops cannot detain someone for no ID, now you are saying they can. You are flip-flopping as I continue your education. Lucky for you, I'm offering free tuition tonight.

1) I was stopped I violated no law. Happens all the time.

2) nope. wrong again. I was detained supposedly for the purposes of identification pursuant to CA. state law. Only that law was applied after the fact.

CA. will do a thumb print for ticketable offenses...misdemeanor civil offenses..if a state ID is not present at a stop (my case, walking). It is for the purposes of confirming ID. If no match comes back the thumb print is in the database for next time. One cannot be held if a match is not confirmed. A bogus state ID would make for a walk with the ticket.

It is against CA state law to take me in as they did.

3) wrong again. a person who is stopped because they resemble a wanted fugitive would have to produce ID as they would be stopped for a suspected criminal offense. a wanted fugitive who has a fake state Id and is stopped for a ticketable offense must be let go with a ticket. No ID, a thumb print would be taken and a match would be found.


Don't pass GO. Don't collect $200.

don't tell me. I know the law and have read the decisions of the state Attorneys General and the courts.

Lemme guess, you're a college pre-law student too. Got that one all the time when I was a cop.

You are confusing law with practice.

1- If you were stopped with no probable cause, then he violated not only CA law, not only federal law, but the 4th amendment of the constitution. You should've sued. "PC" for a stop is mandatory. And I know, sometimes cops do it anyway without PC and it's wrong.

2- What you are describing under the civil ticket thumbprint is a practice in some states due to efficiency. We simply don't have the manpower to detain all who don't have verified ID. If you had robbed someone or committed a more serious offense, I promise you would've been detained. Sounds like the CA cop did our equivalent in SC of a Feild Interview card. Again, law vs practice. An FI card does not require violation, as it is considered a "consentual encounter". If that cop had no legal violation, then yeah, no wonder he cut you loose with a thumbprint. That card or ticket will have the name and info you provided with a thumbprint, and next time if that print matches another offense under another name, it will count as an "alias" which is listed on your ID info sheet. Thats what that is for, and it is a common practice for efficiency, because if we detained every person we couldn't immediately ID we'd have no cops on the streets working anymore b/c of manpower. So, ONCE AGAIN, don't confuse common procedure with actual law.

ONE CAN BE HELD if a match is not confirmed, it is simply a practice to not do so for most minor ticketable offenses because manpower and efficiency do not yield it (ever heard of the overcrowded jail problems? Yeah, thats why that practice exists). My point is legally one CAN be held until ID is verified. That is LAW. Now, if a department POLICY states fingerprint and release, then that is a common practive that suits that department. BUT, remember, POLICY of a department is not LAW. That CA cops dept likely had a POLICY of doing that so dumb cops wouldn't be detaining jaywalkers for ID purposes. Makes sense so far, right?

You HAVE NOT read the law. Tell me: If a person is stopped for a ticketable offense, and no print comes back, what name does that charge fall under? What if their prints are not in the system? Cops don't write tickets to John Doe with a fingerprint and hope the guy comes to court.

The fake ID would not work because that cop will run the fake ID number through the dispatch and California DMV, at which point that DL number would come back invalid, or come back to a different name than on the ID. Only switching the photo on another person's valid ID with a photo of you would get by dispatch and DMV check. And that does happen sometimes and an innocent person is stuck with a charge they don't know about.

If YOUR views on the law were true, why would anyone carry an ID? They could just give the cop a fake name and never have to pay the ticket. We aren't required to provide fingerprints at birth. UNTIL you are arrested, your prints are not in the national fingerprint database. So, a person with no prior full custody arrest could speed and shoplift and have simple possession tickets forever and as long as they never get taken to jail, could keep giving fake names and just never showing up for court. And they'd never be caught.

THAT is why we require, and verify, ID. For everyone. I'm sorry to hurt your feelings, but I did this as a profession for almost a decade and know more about this stuff than you will ever learn on NeverGetBusted dot com or from what your college suitemate is telling you is "true".

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Now you do remember the drivers license issue during the campaign season--where our dear President stated: "Illegals didn't come here to drive." Illegals get drivers licenses--in about every state in this country. They look the same as anyone who is a citizen--there is nothing different about them--or that would indicate that they are here on a temporary visa--or a complete illegal entrant to this country.

So drivers licenses ARE NOT in any way proof of citizenship--or legal immigrant to this country. The "only" real proof of citizenship in this country is a US passport. Furthermore immigrants to enter this country legally--are required to carry on their person at all times a green card--indicating they did cross our borders "legally."

And when Americans go to Mexico--we too are required to carry on our person--the temporary visa we received upon entering.

bucs is not too bright.


I was talking about how the police cannot detain somebody for solely not having an ID. If a stop for a ticketable offense is made an ID must be produced or a check is made of a thumb print. If that thumb print produces no match, it is not a crime to not be in the database. A ticket will be issued and the detained allowed to walk away. But a thumb print will stay in the database for next time.

If a crime were committed, a criminal offense...it is different scenario. Depending on the crime I doubt very much a judge would allow an arrested person to stay in jail indefinitely because Id is not verified. Bail might not be given, but after a sentence was served where is teh crime....no ID?

bucs is advocating fascism and is clueless about doing so...or ... I hate to think of the alternatives.

 

[bucs90]

Liberals?

I want illegals deported. I don't want the state being given extra police powers to do so. Fishing expeditions to catch illegals would be fine with me, if were done targeting illegals. But how does on target illegals? Go after Spanish speakers or dark skinned people? What about European illegals?

The British in America, tried to catch rebels by treating all Colonists as suspects. Didn't work out so well for them.

you admit to favoring laws that hide their true aim?

The state isn't getting power to deport. It's getting power to detain and transfer custody to feds. Only feds can deport. Read up on your laws.

You target illegals the same way you target drugs and fugitives. You continue making lawful stops for other violations. Speeding. Car theft. Shoplifting. Expired license tags. Whatever. If the suspect then cannot provide a DL, ID, etc, no passport, no immigration papers, etc, then run their name and birthday through NCIC and DMV. Nothing coming back? Suspicion arises. Ask for SS number. No SS number? Well, then ask where they live. If they have a DL from another nation (Mexico, Russia, etc).

If you stopped someone for speeding, and they

1- have no DL
2- have no record in database
3- have a Mexican driver's license
4- don't speak English
5- don't have a passport
5 - don't have a greencard
6- can't provide a valid SS number

Well, thats what those in law enforcement call a clue. Notice "race" is not listed, as that doesn't really matter.

a big to do was made by Arizona politicians that race would not be the only factor, now they say it will not be a factor in setting up stings.


stings are legal.I have no problem with stings. Local police doing immigration policing is troubling in that it takes away resources. If illegal immigrants are the cause of a majority of crime, that would be a special case. Are illegal immigrants the cause of much crime?

How does one bait them and not legal immigrants and citizens? it's not like a drunk driving road side thing. there everyone gets checked. everyone.

Illegal immigrants do cause a significant amount of crime. Despite what media reports, they do. Not overly bad. I believe FBI stats still list African American as race with highest crime rate, but truly it's mostly tied to poverty, not race, and there just happens to be a higher % of blacks and latinos in poverty. % of whites and asians in poverty who commit serious crime is about same as other races.

The thing is, you don't BAIT anyone. You enforce the laws how you always have. Except now, when you come across what appears to be an illegal alien, you contact ICE and transfer them. Before, as I had experience in, you would have the cop write a speeding ticket to a probable illegal and just say "Well, he'll never show up in court". And 90% of the time, they wouldn't. Many would have about 10-15 various Central and South American ID card with various names and similar photos. They could use 1 for a ticket, then throw it away and assume a new name and ID for their next speeding ticket, etc. Never get caught. No valid name to issue warrant under.

So, you don't target anyone or bait anyone. Just turn them over to ICE now rather than let them go. What ICE does then is up to the feds, as deportation is their job, not locals.

 

[bucs90]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Now you do remember the drivers license issue during the campaign season--where our dear President stated: "Illegals didn't come here to drive." Illegals get drivers licenses--in about every state in this country. They look the same as anyone who is a citizen--there is nothing different about them--or that would indicate that they are here on a temporary visa--or a complete illegal entrant to this country.

So drivers licenses ARE NOT in any way proof of citizenship--or legal immigrant to this country. The "only" real proof of citizenship in this country is a US passport. Furthermore immigrants to enter this country legally--are required to carry on their person at all times a green card--indicating they did cross our borders "legally."

And when Americans go to Mexico--we too are required to carry on our person--the temporary visa we received upon entering.

Thats true now as well. North Carolina, for example, issues DL's to anyone! If you can drive a lap without wrecking, you get a DL. However, if a cop checks that DL through the DMV with dispatch, no social security number is attached. But yeah, NC would have trouble enforcing an Arizona style law because they issue valid DL's to illegals, thus taking away one element of probable cause.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Boy oh boy are you an ignorant libby.

1) If a person is stopped, they have violated a law.

2) If they are detained, and printed, then they are being booked and charged.

If they are charged, an ID must be verified to place the charging document under.
The person will be held indefinitely until an ID is verified.
They can be held, and it won't be forever. If they were born in the US, they have a social security number. Once that is found, at minimum a DMV customer number exists and thus an ID.

If a person is detained without a legal charge, then asking for ID does not fall under Terry Stop, thus making it an unlawful detention. The unrelated legal charge kicks in the mandatory identification for the charging document, and thus, the indefinite detention until proper identification is found for prosecution. Ya can't issue a bench warrant with a fingerprint as the suspect's name. Duh!

Yes. I'm saying if you are taken into custody, and no ID is found, your freedom will be gone until one is provided or located. Unless you are an illegal alien, at which point ICE will deport you.

3) If the law worked the way YOU think it works, then a person who is wanted could never be arrested as they could just refuse to provide ID and thus be released.

You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about, because earlier you argued cops cannot detain someone for no ID, now you are saying they can. You are flip-flopping as I continue your education. Lucky for you, I'm offering free tuition tonight.

1) I was stopped I violated no law. Happens all the time.

2) nope. wrong again. I was detained supposedly for the purposes of identification pursuant to CA. state law. Only that law was applied after the fact.

CA. will do a thumb print for ticketable offenses...misdemeanor civil offenses..if a state ID is not present at a stop (my case, walking). It is for the purposes of confirming ID. If no match comes back the thumb print is in the database for next time. One cannot be held if a match is not confirmed. A bogus state ID would make for a walk with the ticket.

It is against CA state law to take me in as they did.

3) wrong again. a person who is stopped because they resemble a wanted fugitive would have to produce ID as they would be stopped for a suspected criminal offense. a wanted fugitive who has a fake state Id and is stopped for a ticketable offense must be let go with a ticket. No ID, a thumb print would be taken and a match would be found.


Don't pass GO. Don't collect $200.

don't tell me. I know the law and have read the decisions of the state Attorneys General and the courts.

Lemme guess, you're a college pre-law student too. Got that one all the time when I was a cop.

You are confusing law with practice.

1- If you were stopped with no probable cause, then he violated not only CA law, not only federal law, but the 4th amendment of the constitution. You should've sued. "PC" for a stop is mandatory. And I know, sometimes cops do it anyway without PC and it's wrong.

2- What you are describing under the civil ticket thumbprint is a practice in some states due to efficiency. We simply don't have the manpower to detain all who don't have verified ID. If you had robbed someone or committed a more serious offense, I promise you would've been detained. Sounds like the CA cop did our equivalent in SC of a Feild Interview card. Again, law vs practice. An FI card does not require violation, as it is considered a "consentual encounter". If that cop had no legal violation, then yeah, no wonder he cut you loose with a thumbprint. That card or ticket will have the name and info you provided with a thumbprint, and next time if that print matches another offense under another name, it will count as an "alias" which is listed on your ID info sheet. Thats what that is for, and it is a common practice for efficiency, because if we detained every person we couldn't immediately ID we'd have no cops on the streets working anymore b/c of manpower. So, ONCE AGAIN, don't confuse common procedure with actual law.

ONE CAN BE HELD if a match is not confirmed, it is simply a practice to not do so for most minor ticketable offenses because manpower and efficiency do not yield it (ever heard of the overcrowded jail problems? Yeah, thats why that practice exists). My point is legally one CAN be held until ID is verified. That is LAW. Now, if a department POLICY states fingerprint and release, then that is a common practive that suits that department. BUT, remember, POLICY of a department is not LAW. That CA cops dept likely had a POLICY of doing that so dumb cops wouldn't be detaining jaywalkers for ID purposes. Makes sense so far, right?

1) You HAVE NOT read the law. Tell me: If a person is stopped for a ticketable offense, and no print comes back, what name does that charge fall under? What if their prints are not in the system? Cops don't write tickets to John Doe with a fingerprint and hope the guy comes to court.

The fake ID would not work because that cop will run the fake ID number through the dispatch and California DMV, at which point that DL number would come back invalid, or come back to a different name than on the ID. Only switching the photo on another person's valid ID with a photo of you would get by dispatch and DMV check. And that does happen sometimes and an innocent person is stuck with a charge they don't know about.

If YOUR views on the law were true, why would anyone carry an ID? They could just give the cop a fake name and never have to pay the ticket. We aren't required to provide fingerprints at birth. UNTIL you are arrested, your prints are not in the national fingerprint database. So, a person with no prior full custody arrest could speed and shoplift and have simple possession tickets forever and as long as they never get taken to jail, could keep giving fake names and just never showing up for court. And they'd never be caught.

THAT is why we require, and verify, ID. For everyone. I'm sorry to hurt your feelings, but I did this as a profession for almost a decade and know more about this stuff than you will ever learn on NeverGetBusted dot com or from what your college suitemate is telling you is "true".

I haven't given up. The lawyers don't see this as a big deal.I wanted to create a database of all claims of similar false stops. A ticket was only given to me because---CYA. It covered up a crime. I was most liklely taken in because a cop on steroids or some other substance was high and thought I had a criminal record or something. I didn't have warrants or parole or probation, so he fucked up. He should have let me go with a threat like he was giving in the squad car, but my friend's(who was detained with me) mom is a NYC Police Sgt. I guess the cop thought it was best to CYA. He had state ID but plead guilty to a nuisance charge. He was pulled in because he left his apt complex to see why I was being treated as a criminal on a sidewalk. It was a big scene straight out of a police drama. Only problem was I did nothing but get their attention with my yelling across teh street at friends with my east coast accent...loudly. Never was charged or written up because there was no complaint. Cop was abusing his authority.

Now, I researched the laws. There were similar cases and in all there were disputes about ID.

A ticket can be written to a John Doe as far as I know, because if I say my name is John Doe, and the police cannot police cannot prove otherwise, I will be thumb printed and entered as John Doe.

You are misinterpreting or misconstruing things. It is not against the law to have no ID.

One cannot be held because one has no ID. One can be held for refusing to give a name and refusing to be printed. How long? that would make a good case.

 

[bucs90]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Now you do remember the drivers license issue during the campaign season--where our dear President stated: "Illegals didn't come here to drive." Illegals get drivers licenses--in about every state in this country. They look the same as anyone who is a citizen--there is nothing different about them--or that would indicate that they are here on a temporary visa--or a complete illegal entrant to this country.

So drivers licenses ARE NOT in any way proof of citizenship--or legal immigrant to this country. The "only" real proof of citizenship in this country is a US passport. Furthermore immigrants to enter this country legally--are required to carry on their person at all times a green card--indicating they did cross our borders "legally."

And when Americans go to Mexico--we too are required to carry on our person--the temporary visa we received upon entering.

bucs is not too bright.


I was talking about how the police cannot detain somebody for solely not having an ID. If a stop for a ticketable offense is made an ID must be produced or a check is made of a thumb print. If that thumb print produces no match, it is not a crime to not be in the database. A ticket will be issued and the detained allowed to walk away. But a thumb print will stay in the database for next time.

If a crime were committed, a criminal offense...it is different scenario. Depending on the crime I doubt very much a judge would allow an arrested person to stay in jail indefinitely because Id is not verified. Bail might not be given, but after a sentence was served where is teh crime....no ID?

bucs is advocating fascism and is clueless about doing so...or ... I hate to think of the alternatives.

Then whose rap sheet does the conviction go on if the sentence is served and he is released? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

If someone is stopped, a law has been violated. (if no law violated, it's an unlawful stop, different discussion then). SO.....if a law has been violated, and no ID can be verified, the cop has under his descretion the authority to detain the person UNDER THE INITIAL CHARGE the stop was made on, with a charging document (ticket or warrant) that reads "John Doe". John Doe will then sit in jail until he can provide a verified identification. He will not be released for time served, because the court must put the charge on a rap sheet.

Again, if you get a jaywalking ticket, or simple speeding, whatever, and no ID can be verified, often a cop will let you go and trust the name you gave him or take the fingerprint. Thats sometimes department policy due to manpower and efficiency. You seem to not grasp the difference between legal allowable procedure vs common practiced policy. Department policy is often more restrictive than state and local law. For manpower and efficiency reasons. That doesn't change the issue that BY LAW the cop can detain you under the initial charge until ID is provided.

So, before you attempt it, you're gonna say "But illegals are arrested all the time and released without definite ID". Yes. They are. Thats where the CUSTOMER NUMBER from the DMV comes in. The judge will give time served, use the name and address he provided in a Mexican DL or provided, have a customer number generated in the DMV, and that is the new rap sheet that will begin.

But you will not be sentenced, and released on time served, under "John Doe". That I can 100% guarantee you. You are absolutely wrong on everything you are saying.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Illegal immigrants do cause a significant amount of crime. Despite what media reports, they do. Not overly bad. I believe FBI stats still list African American as race with highest crime rate, but truly it's mostly tied to poverty, not race, and there just happens to be a higher % of blacks and latinos in poverty. % of whites and asians in poverty who commit serious crime is about same as other races.

The thing is, you don't BAIT anyone. You enforce the laws how you always have. Except now, when you come across what appears to be an illegal alien, you contact ICE and transfer them. Before, as I had experience in, you would have the cop write a speeding ticket to a probable illegal and just say "Well, he'll never show up in court". And 90% of the time, they wouldn't. Many would have about 10-15 various Central and South American ID card with various names and similar photos. They could use 1 for a ticket, then throw it away and assume a new name and ID for their next speeding ticket, etc. Never get caught. No valid name to issue warrant under.

So, you don't target anyone or bait anyone. Just turn them over to ICE now rather than let them go. What ICE does then is up to the feds, as deportation is their job, not locals.

You are arguing with straw men. I know about police dept policies that say walk away...don't bother the illegals, you are not immigration officers. I know about policing efforts to reach out to immigrant communities because they need the help of them in solving horrific and petty crimes. I personally knew somebody who was arrested, convicted and served a prison sentence for selling fake IDs, before he was deported back to Central America. I know all this.

Illegal immigration has become an issue because Americans wanted cheap labor, and there was a never ending supply. End of story. When immigrants come here, illegal or legal---they need jobs. Even the drug dealers and criminals need a community with jobs where they can practice extortion and more and hide out.

Illegals without jobs will not all go home, some have roots here now. Some will leave without jobs. What do we do? Spend a bazzillion dollars hoping to get them all, or try and reasonably find a way to deal with it without giving the police more powers. Police will always abuse powers because they are human.

 

[bucs90]

1) I was stopped I violated no law. Happens all the time.

2) nope. wrong again. I was detained supposedly for the purposes of identification pursuant to CA. state law. Only that law was applied after the fact.

CA. will do a thumb print for ticketable offenses...misdemeanor civil offenses..if a state ID is not present at a stop (my case, walking). It is for the purposes of confirming ID. If no match comes back the thumb print is in the database for next time. One cannot be held if a match is not confirmed. A bogus state ID would make for a walk with the ticket.

It is against CA state law to take me in as they did.

3) wrong again. a person who is stopped because they resemble a wanted fugitive would have to produce ID as they would be stopped for a suspected criminal offense. a wanted fugitive who has a fake state Id and is stopped for a ticketable offense must be let go with a ticket. No ID, a thumb print would be taken and a match would be found.


Don't pass GO. Don't collect $200.

don't tell me. I know the law and have read the decisions of the state Attorneys General and the courts.

Lemme guess, you're a college pre-law student too. Got that one all the time when I was a cop.

You are confusing law with practice.

1- If you were stopped with no probable cause, then he violated not only CA law, not only federal law, but the 4th amendment of the constitution. You should've sued. "PC" for a stop is mandatory. And I know, sometimes cops do it anyway without PC and it's wrong.

2- What you are describing under the civil ticket thumbprint is a practice in some states due to efficiency. We simply don't have the manpower to detain all who don't have verified ID. If you had robbed someone or committed a more serious offense, I promise you would've been detained. Sounds like the CA cop did our equivalent in SC of a Feild Interview card. Again, law vs practice. An FI card does not require violation, as it is considered a "consentual encounter". If that cop had no legal violation, then yeah, no wonder he cut you loose with a thumbprint. That card or ticket will have the name and info you provided with a thumbprint, and next time if that print matches another offense under another name, it will count as an "alias" which is listed on your ID info sheet. Thats what that is for, and it is a common practice for efficiency, because if we detained every person we couldn't immediately ID we'd have no cops on the streets working anymore b/c of manpower. So, ONCE AGAIN, don't confuse common procedure with actual law.

ONE CAN BE HELD if a match is not confirmed, it is simply a practice to not do so for most minor ticketable offenses because manpower and efficiency do not yield it (ever heard of the overcrowded jail problems? Yeah, thats why that practice exists). My point is legally one CAN be held until ID is verified. That is LAW. Now, if a department POLICY states fingerprint and release, then that is a common practive that suits that department. BUT, remember, POLICY of a department is not LAW. That CA cops dept likely had a POLICY of doing that so dumb cops wouldn't be detaining jaywalkers for ID purposes. Makes sense so far, right?

1) You HAVE NOT read the law. Tell me: If a person is stopped for a ticketable offense, and no print comes back, what name does that charge fall under? What if their prints are not in the system? Cops don't write tickets to John Doe with a fingerprint and hope the guy comes to court.

The fake ID would not work because that cop will run the fake ID number through the dispatch and California DMV, at which point that DL number would come back invalid, or come back to a different name than on the ID. Only switching the photo on another person's valid ID with a photo of you would get by dispatch and DMV check. And that does happen sometimes and an innocent person is stuck with a charge they don't know about.

If YOUR views on the law were true, why would anyone carry an ID? They could just give the cop a fake name and never have to pay the ticket. We aren't required to provide fingerprints at birth. UNTIL you are arrested, your prints are not in the national fingerprint database. So, a person with no prior full custody arrest could speed and shoplift and have simple possession tickets forever and as long as they never get taken to jail, could keep giving fake names and just never showing up for court. And they'd never be caught.

THAT is why we require, and verify, ID. For everyone. I'm sorry to hurt your feelings, but I did this as a profession for almost a decade and know more about this stuff than you will ever learn on NeverGetBusted dot com or from what your college suitemate is telling you is "true".

I haven't given up. The lawyers don't see this as a big deal.I wanted to create a database of all claims of similar false stops. A ticket was only given to me because---CYA. It covered up a crime. I was most liklely taken in because a cop on steroids or some other substance was high and thought I had a criminal record or something. I didn't have warrants or parole or probation, so he fucked up. He should have let me go with a threat like he was giving in the squad car, but my friend's(who was detained with me) mom is a NYC Police Sgt. I guess the cop thought it was best to CYA. He had state ID but plead guilty to a nuisance charge. He was pulled in because he left his apt complex to see why I was being treated as a criminal on a sidewalk. It was a big scene straight out of a police drama. Only problem was I did nothing but get their attention with my yelling across teh street at friends with my east coast accent...loudly. Never was charged or written up because there was no complaint. Cop was abusing his authority.

Now, I researched the laws. There were similar cases and in all there were disputes about ID.

A ticket can be written to a John Doe as far as I know, because if I say my name is John Doe, and the police cannot police cannot prove otherwise, I will be thumb printed and entered as John Doe.

You are misinterpreting or misconstruing things. It is not against the law to have no ID.

One cannot be held because one has no ID. One can be held for refusing to give a name and refusing to be printed. How long? that would make a good case.

Yeah, sounds like you ran into one of those 5% who shouldn't be a cop. Those things happen unfortunately. When I was in, the rest of us tried to weed out those bad ones, because not only are they just wrong, but be on scene with one and you may get pulled into a lawsuit with him for BS like that. You absolutely cannot demand ID from a citizen without probable cause of a violation of law.

A ticket cannot be transmitted under John Doe without it being verified as someone actually going by that name. Transmitted means turned into the court for prosecution. Failure to show for court = a bench warrant. Can't issue a warrant on John Doe and a fingerprint.

You say one cannot be held for no ID, but can be held for no name or print. The name is the ID, verified through the DMV and NCIC. But all 50 states have an "ID in possession" law requiring it. It is so often not enforced most people don't realize it, but it's there. Thankfully, computer technology had nearly made that law obsolete. How long one can be held without ID is in fact indefinite. Sounds shocking but it's true. Rarely if ever happens, so not sure case law exists on it. But that is the law.

And by providing and requiring ID, you must realize every US citizen has a DL, ID or customer number in their state DMV by virtue of having a social security number. If you turn 18 and never bother getting a DL or ID issued, you'll get a CN only for the purpose of having a legal record of any traffic or criminal charges and a rap sheet. So, thaniks to the tech era, cops can verify ID through database rather than eforcing the requirment that citizens carry ID on them at all times. It's an antiquated law because of computers.

However, with illegal aliens that don't exist in our system, hard copy ID is the only way.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Now you do remember the drivers license issue during the campaign season--where our dear President stated: "Illegals didn't come here to drive." Illegals get drivers licenses--in about every state in this country. They look the same as anyone who is a citizen--there is nothing different about them--or that would indicate that they are here on a temporary visa--or a complete illegal entrant to this country.

So drivers licenses ARE NOT in any way proof of citizenship--or legal immigrant to this country. The "only" real proof of citizenship in this country is a US passport. Furthermore immigrants to enter this country legally--are required to carry on their person at all times a green card--indicating they did cross our borders "legally."

And when Americans go to Mexico--we too are required to carry on our person--the temporary visa we received upon entering.

bucs is not too bright.


I was talking about how the police cannot detain somebody for solely not having an ID. If a stop for a ticketable offense is made an ID must be produced or a check is made of a thumb print. If that thumb print produces no match, it is not a crime to not be in the database. A ticket will be issued and the detained allowed to walk away. But a thumb print will stay in the database for next time.

If a crime were committed, a criminal offense...it is different scenario. Depending on the crime I doubt very much a judge would allow an arrested person to stay in jail indefinitely because Id is not verified. Bail might not be given, but after a sentence was served where is teh crime....no ID?

bucs is advocating fascism and is clueless about doing so...or ... I hate to think of the alternatives.

Then whose rap sheet does the conviction go on if the sentence is served and he is released? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

If someone is stopped, a law has been violated. (if no law violated, it's an unlawful stop, different discussion then). SO.....if a law has been violated, and no ID can be verified, the cop has under his descretion the authority to detain the person UNDER THE INITIAL CHARGE the stop was made on, with a charging document (ticket or warrant) that reads "John Doe". John Doe will then sit in jail until he can provide a verified identification. He will not be released for time served, because the court must put the charge on a rap sheet.

Again, if you get a jaywalking ticket, or simple speeding, whatever, and no ID can be verified, often a cop will let you go and trust the name you gave him or take the fingerprint. Thats sometimes department policy due to manpower and efficiency. You seem to not grasp the difference between legal allowable procedure vs common practiced policy. Department policy is often more restrictive than state and local law. For manpower and efficiency reasons. That doesn't change the issue that BY LAW the cop can detain you under the initial charge until ID is provided.

So, before you attempt it, you're gonna say "But illegals are arrested all the time and released without definite ID". Yes. They are. Thats where the CUSTOMER NUMBER from the DMV comes in. The judge will give time served, use the name and address he provided in a Mexican DL or provided, have a customer number generated in the DMV, and that is the new rap sheet that will begin.

But you will not be sentenced, and released on time served, under "John Doe". That I can 100% guarantee you. You are absolutely wrong on everything you are saying.

Who's rap sheet? Whatever name or alias it is filed under.

D'oh! People have multiple convictions and even a few with sentences served under aliases. In the end identities are matched up. But,...

If a person is arrested without any prior arrests, stops or detentions...a clean slate...and they have no ID....and they are convicted of a crime, never having gotten or posted bail...and then sentenced...when their sentence is up what crime will they be held under..."No busc ID?" they will walk away and have an ID in the database that is either true or an alias.

 

[bucs90]

Illegal immigrants do cause a significant amount of crime. Despite what media reports, they do. Not overly bad. I believe FBI stats still list African American as race with highest crime rate, but truly it's mostly tied to poverty, not race, and there just happens to be a higher % of blacks and latinos in poverty. % of whites and asians in poverty who commit serious crime is about same as other races.

The thing is, you don't BAIT anyone. You enforce the laws how you always have. Except now, when you come across what appears to be an illegal alien, you contact ICE and transfer them. Before, as I had experience in, you would have the cop write a speeding ticket to a probable illegal and just say "Well, he'll never show up in court". And 90% of the time, they wouldn't. Many would have about 10-15 various Central and South American ID card with various names and similar photos. They could use 1 for a ticket, then throw it away and assume a new name and ID for their next speeding ticket, etc. Never get caught. No valid name to issue warrant under.

So, you don't target anyone or bait anyone. Just turn them over to ICE now rather than let them go. What ICE does then is up to the feds, as deportation is their job, not locals.

You are arguing with straw men. I know about police dept policies that say walk away...don't bother the illegals, you are not immigration officers. I know about policing efforts to reach out to immigrant communities because they need the help of them in solving horrific and petty crimes. I personally knew somebody who was arrested, convicted and served a prison sentence for selling fake IDs, before he was deported back to Central America. I know all this.

Illegal immigration has become an issue because Americans wanted cheap labor, and there was a never ending supply. End of story. When immigrants come here, illegal or legal---they need jobs. Even the drug dealers and criminals need a community with jobs where they can practice extortion and more and hide out.

Illegals without jobs will not all go home, some have roots here now. Some will leave without jobs. What do we do? Spend a bazzillion dollars hoping to get them all, or try and reasonably find a way to deal with it without giving the police more powers. Police will always abuse powers because they are human.

Hey, I agree with all of the above mostly. My original point was in response to those who find it shocking that one must "show me your papers", when in fact, all humans in US legal or not must show identification, hard copy or electronic verification, to cops. In a citizen's case, "show me your papers" may mean the cop checking your name in DMV and seeing you have a DL, just forgot it at home. Common sense tells the cop "this guy just forgot his DL no big deal" and we all move on. But his "papers" were shown and verified. Illegals aren't in our DMV or NCIC systems, so, a hard copy document or card is the only way to verify them.

From my 8 years on the force, I can say I thoroughly enjoyed interacting with the immigrant communities. They feared the police, not for obvious reasons though. They don't know we aren't ICE, and honestly, the cops in Mexico and S. America are very corrupt and they murder, rape, steal etc. The immigrants aren't always used to a police force that is 95% high integrity and law abiding. I wish many of them could become legal. Many great people. I preferred them to the ghetto thugs and white trash drunks anyday.

I believe it is a problem we must deal with 1 step at a time.

First the border MUST be sealed.

Then, deal with those that are here. We can't deport them all. Thats illogical and just too dangerous for the cops who would be tasked with taking custody of them. A fine? Maybe. But nothing can be addressed until the border is secured. If that were done, I truly feel most of the right wingers would be OK with a compromise of amnesty. Seal border + amnesty = good compromise and logical.




But you can be detained indefinitely on a charge without an ID. I beg you to never try the theory that you can't.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I haven't given up. The lawyers don't see this as a big deal.I wanted to create a database of all claims of similar false stops. A ticket was only given to me because---CYA. It covered up a crime. I was most liklely taken in because a cop on steroids or some other substance was high and thought I had a criminal record or something. I didn't have warrants or parole or probation, so he fucked up. He should have let me go with a threat like he was giving in the squad car, but my friend's(who was detained with me) mom is a NYC Police Sgt. I guess the cop thought it was best to CYA. He had state ID but plead guilty to a nuisance charge. He was pulled in because he left his apt complex to see why I was being treated as a criminal on a sidewalk. It was a big scene straight out of a police drama. Only problem was I did nothing but get their attention with my yelling across teh street at friends with my east coast accent...loudly. Never was charged or written up because there was no complaint. Cop was abusing his authority.

Now, I researched the laws. There were similar cases and in all there were disputes about ID.

A ticket can be written to a John Doe as far as I know, because if I say my name is John Doe, and the police cannot police cannot prove otherwise, I will be thumb printed and entered as John Doe.

You are misinterpreting or misconstruing things. It is not against the law to have no ID.

One cannot be held because one has no ID. One can be held for refusing to give a name and refusing to be printed. How long? that would make a good case.

1) Yeah, sounds like you ran into one of those 5% who shouldn't be a cop. Those things happen unfortunately. When I was in, the rest of us tried to weed out those bad ones, because not only are they just wrong, but be on scene with one and you may get pulled into a lawsuit with him for BS like that. You absolutely cannot demand ID from a citizen without probable cause of a violation of law.

A ticket cannot be transmitted under John Doe without it being verified as someone actually going by that name. Transmitted means turned into the court for prosecution. Failure to show for court = a bench warrant. Can't issue a warrant on John Doe and a fingerprint.

You say one cannot be held for no ID, but can be held for no name or print. The name is the ID, verified through the DMV and NCIC. But all 50 states have an "ID in possession" law requiring it. It is so often not enforced most people don't realize it, but it's there. Thankfully, computer technology had nearly made that law obsolete. How long one can be held without ID is in fact indefinite. Sounds shocking but it's true. Rarely if ever happens, so not sure case law exists on it. But that is the law.

And by providing and requiring ID, you must realize every US citizen has a DL, ID or customer number in their state DMV by virtue of having a social security number. If you turn 18 and never bother getting a DL or ID issued, you'll get a CN only for the purpose of having a legal record of any traffic or criminal charges and a rap sheet. So, thaniks to the tech era, cops can verify ID through database rather than eforcing the requirment that citizens carry ID on them at all times. It's an antiquated law because of computers.

However, with illegal aliens that don't exist in our system, hard copy ID is the only way.

1) I don't know the percentage of cops like him, but I suspect some depts have a higher % than others. I met the commander of my area, I met sgts, and others. I have not raised the issue with them because of departmental personalities. I do tell everyone else about it so that it is out there.

you keep insisting that a man without an ID is a John Doe. There are people who have never had an ID who get stopped. Depending on ones age, a 20 something might never have an ID. When detained they will give a name. No ID. That name will serve as their name. If a case is serious enough I know ID will try and be verified. I remember hearing about a case involving such a situation and forget how the court ruled, but there is no law stating proof with an ID has to be established. There is no law that states one must have an ID.

and again, for a ticketable offense the given name will suffice after a print is made...that was the justification for the print. But if one has no ID and is not in a law enforcement database, one cannot be held for a ticketable offense. The ticket will be written to whatever name is given.That print will forever be attached to the given name. Subsequent tickets will show the previous name when a print is again taken for having no ID.

One can, and people do, live in America without ID. It is not a crime.