Carry your papers with you!

[bucs90]

bucs is not too bright.


I was talking about how the police cannot detain somebody for solely not having an ID. If a stop for a ticketable offense is made an ID must be produced or a check is made of a thumb print. If that thumb print produces no match, it is not a crime to not be in the database. A ticket will be issued and the detained allowed to walk away. But a thumb print will stay in the database for next time.

If a crime were committed, a criminal offense...it is different scenario. Depending on the crime I doubt very much a judge would allow an arrested person to stay in jail indefinitely because Id is not verified. Bail might not be given, but after a sentence was served where is teh crime....no ID?

bucs is advocating fascism and is clueless about doing so...or ... I hate to think of the alternatives.

Then whose rap sheet does the conviction go on if the sentence is served and he is released? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

If someone is stopped, a law has been violated. (if no law violated, it's an unlawful stop, different discussion then). SO.....if a law has been violated, and no ID can be verified, the cop has under his descretion the authority to detain the person UNDER THE INITIAL CHARGE the stop was made on, with a charging document (ticket or warrant) that reads "John Doe". John Doe will then sit in jail until he can provide a verified identification. He will not be released for time served, because the court must put the charge on a rap sheet.

Again, if you get a jaywalking ticket, or simple speeding, whatever, and no ID can be verified, often a cop will let you go and trust the name you gave him or take the fingerprint. Thats sometimes department policy due to manpower and efficiency. You seem to not grasp the difference between legal allowable procedure vs common practiced policy. Department policy is often more restrictive than state and local law. For manpower and efficiency reasons. That doesn't change the issue that BY LAW the cop can detain you under the initial charge until ID is provided.

So, before you attempt it, you're gonna say "But illegals are arrested all the time and released without definite ID". Yes. They are. Thats where the CUSTOMER NUMBER from the DMV comes in. The judge will give time served, use the name and address he provided in a Mexican DL or provided, have a customer number generated in the DMV, and that is the new rap sheet that will begin.

But you will not be sentenced, and released on time served, under "John Doe". That I can 100% guarantee you. You are absolutely wrong on everything you are saying.

Who's rap sheet? Whatever name or alias it is filed under.

D'oh! People have multiple convictions and even a few with sentences served under aliases. In the end identities are matched up. But,...

If a person is arrested without any prior arrests, stops or detentions...a clean slate...and they have no ID....and they are convicted of a crime, never having gotten or posted bail...and then sentenced...when their sentence is up what crime will they be held under..."No busc ID?" they will walk away and have an ID in the database that is either true or an alias.

You're not following. By virtue of your social security number every person has a customer number already. That number can be found with a SS number. In that scenario, which is rare and I've actually never heard of, the Social Security Administration would be notified and a match attempted. Truth is, folks want to get out of jail, so they rarely refuse ID.

Now, can a person assume a false identity? YES, of course, but it would have to be of a person of similar physical characteristics and age. That has happened. A brother using his brother's name, birthday, address, etc. When checked, it comes back to that name, address, and "white male, 5 foot 10, 170 lbs, brown hair" etc. If the description is close, it'll likely slide. It's an unfortunate loophole, but, by fingerprints that person will only be able to do it 1 time. Once the prints are in the system, it's a done deal.

But I can assure with with 100% accuracy that person being charged at released after time served......if there is suspicion the person is providing a false identity, it will be checked intensly prior to release. "John Doe" is an obvious red flag name, so no one will be released under that name unless he's got absolute proof he is in fact named that.

The fake names only last until that first booking and printing. Once in the fingerprint digital database, they're ID'd immediately at the jail intake. So, yes, under a fake name that is a real person (usually a relative or friends name) a person can slip by 1 time as long as their physical description is similar.

If absolutely no ID can be found, then honestly he's likely an illegal alien or a citizen wanted for a murder or something and refuses to provide info. Our current problem is ICE isn't showing up to the jails for the illegals. Policy says the jail notifies ICE, usually through a phone call and voice mail or fax to local ICE office. But 99% of the time ICE ain't coming. It better be 10 or more prisoners to deport or they aren't coming. So, the judge has an illegal immigrant's name and address, fingerprints, and they are released. That name and info is put into the DMV and NCIC for a customer number. Next arrest of that person and the fingerprint will show that customer ID number. But ICE isn't coming.

 

[bucs90]

I haven't given up. The lawyers don't see this as a big deal.I wanted to create a database of all claims of similar false stops. A ticket was only given to me because---CYA. It covered up a crime. I was most liklely taken in because a cop on steroids or some other substance was high and thought I had a criminal record or something. I didn't have warrants or parole or probation, so he fucked up. He should have let me go with a threat like he was giving in the squad car, but my friend's(who was detained with me) mom is a NYC Police Sgt. I guess the cop thought it was best to CYA. He had state ID but plead guilty to a nuisance charge. He was pulled in because he left his apt complex to see why I was being treated as a criminal on a sidewalk. It was a big scene straight out of a police drama. Only problem was I did nothing but get their attention with my yelling across teh street at friends with my east coast accent...loudly. Never was charged or written up because there was no complaint. Cop was abusing his authority.

Now, I researched the laws. There were similar cases and in all there were disputes about ID.

A ticket can be written to a John Doe as far as I know, because if I say my name is John Doe, and the police cannot police cannot prove otherwise, I will be thumb printed and entered as John Doe.

You are misinterpreting or misconstruing things. It is not against the law to have no ID.

One cannot be held because one has no ID. One can be held for refusing to give a name and refusing to be printed. How long? that would make a good case.

1) Yeah, sounds like you ran into one of those 5% who shouldn't be a cop. Those things happen unfortunately. When I was in, the rest of us tried to weed out those bad ones, because not only are they just wrong, but be on scene with one and you may get pulled into a lawsuit with him for BS like that. You absolutely cannot demand ID from a citizen without probable cause of a violation of law.

A ticket cannot be transmitted under John Doe without it being verified as someone actually going by that name. Transmitted means turned into the court for prosecution. Failure to show for court = a bench warrant. Can't issue a warrant on John Doe and a fingerprint.

You say one cannot be held for no ID, but can be held for no name or print. The name is the ID, verified through the DMV and NCIC. But all 50 states have an "ID in possession" law requiring it. It is so often not enforced most people don't realize it, but it's there. Thankfully, computer technology had nearly made that law obsolete. How long one can be held without ID is in fact indefinite. Sounds shocking but it's true. Rarely if ever happens, so not sure case law exists on it. But that is the law.

And by providing and requiring ID, you must realize every US citizen has a DL, ID or customer number in their state DMV by virtue of having a social security number. If you turn 18 and never bother getting a DL or ID issued, you'll get a CN only for the purpose of having a legal record of any traffic or criminal charges and a rap sheet. So, thaniks to the tech era, cops can verify ID through database rather than eforcing the requirment that citizens carry ID on them at all times. It's an antiquated law because of computers.

However, with illegal aliens that don't exist in our system, hard copy ID is the only way.

1) I don't know the percentage of cops like him, but I suspect some depts have a higher % than others. I met the commander of my area, I met sgts, and others. I have not raised the issue with them because of departmental personalities. I do tell everyone else about it so that it is out there.

you keep insisting that a man without an ID is a John Doe. There are people who have never had an ID who get stopped. Depending on ones age, a 20 something might never have an ID. When detained they will give a name. No ID. That name will serve as their name. If a case is serious enough I know ID will try and be verified. I remember hearing about a case involving such a situation and forget how the court ruled, but there is no law stating proof with an ID has to be established. There is no law that states one must have an ID.

and again, for a ticketable offense the given name will suffice after a print is made...that was the justification for the print. But if one has no ID and is not in a law enforcement database, one cannot be held for a ticketable offense. The ticket will be written to whatever name is given.That print will forever be attached to the given name. Subsequent tickets will show the previous name when a print is again taken for having no ID.

One can, and people do, live in America without ID. It is not a crime.

Dude, you are confusing ID with the plastic rectangular card. Every US citizen has a social security number. If you never get a DL, that number turns into a "customer number" at the DMV. That is so if you get a DUI, then a second, they have proof of a suspended "license" so the applicable Driving Under Suspension 2nd offense can be applied. All 50 states have ID in possession laws, but are never used because it's all computerized now. Descretion and policy prevent enforcement of this most times except in serious crimes. But it's on the books and is law.

If you are living in the US legally, you have a government issued identification, whether or not you carry a little card with you. That is your "papers". Finding the customer number and SS number is harder when a person never had a DL, and usually departments practice just letting it slide for minor shit because there is better stuff to do. But if absolutely necessary, every legal US citizen is represented in the DMV, NCIC or SSA and can be located. And yeah, sometimes using a relative or friends name can slip you through the cracks for 1st offense. OR, there is the possibility that the cop just gets lazy and writes down whatever the hell name you tell him. And wonders why they didn't show up for court. But again, descretion. 99.9% of people give you ID verbally or hard-copy, and you usually don't even have to search the database.

If you are living in the US illegally, then you are in fact breaking the law and ID's don't matter anymore.

And you are wrong. If you have no ID, not in database, and get a ticket, YOU CAN be held and booked under John Doe for that ticket. Thats law. Descretion determines whether it'll happen. If it's jaywalking, the cop probably will just write what you told him and trust it's a real name. But, again, thats practice vs law. Law allows the detention, but it's not common practice.

But the law does allow that "show me your papers" COULD apply to every human within our borders upon a legal stop. That is fact in all 50 states, but rarely practiced for minor offenses.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

1) Hey, I agree with all of the above mostly. My original point was in response to those who find it shocking that one must "show me your papers", when in fact, all humans in US legal or not must show identification, hard copy or electronic verification, to cops.


In a citizen's case, "show me your papers" may mean the cop checking your name in DMV and seeing you have a DL, just forgot it at home. Common sense tells the cop "this guy just forgot his DL no big deal" and we all move on. But his "papers" were shown and verified. Illegals aren't in our DMV or NCIC systems, so, a hard copy document or card is the only way to verify them.

From my 8 years on the force, I can say I thoroughly enjoyed interacting with the immigrant communities. They feared the police, not for obvious reasons though. They don't know we aren't ICE, and honestly, the cops in Mexico and S. America are very corrupt and they murder, rape, steal etc. The immigrants aren't always used to a police force that is 95% high integrity and law abiding. I wish many of them could become legal. Many great people. I preferred them to the ghetto thugs and white trash drunks anyday.

I believe it is a problem we must deal with 1 step at a time.

First the border MUST be sealed.

Then, deal with those that are here. We can't deport them all. Thats illogical and just too dangerous for the cops who would be tasked with taking custody of them. A fine? Maybe. But nothing can be addressed until the border is secured. If that were done, I truly feel most of the right wingers would be OK with a compromise of amnesty. Seal border + amnesty = good compromise and logical.




But you can be detained indefinitely on a charge without an ID. I beg you to never try the theory that you can't.

1) Not unless certain criteria is met. One does not have to show ID to a police officer just because a police officer is curious and wants to know.

Sealing the border is appearing to be an elusive task. Maybe even impractical. I support local police turning suspected illegals over to ICE during the course of their regular duties. But I see legals without papers getting caught up in the process...even citizens.

The alternative which is sweet on paper is to demand all citizens carry papers. If one would argue that straight forward with me I might meet them somewhere in the middle. It is the deceit and deception on the part of immigration fanatics that stalls progress.

I know former police officers who agree giving cops too much power here is dangerous.

I wish people would be straight forward and honest. Some of the people who are advocates for illegals are some of the most dishonest...in my opinion. But what they do should not make others dislike or hate the illegals.

again, people hired them all. that si why they stayed after they came. And living out west I see it more...fucking home depot and other places. Poor Americans down on their luck who used to get work through labor pools, are now competing with illegals. Sucks. but that is no reason to turn America into a police state.

temporary laws? maybe. laws with super checks on power? maybe.

The Arizona law is suspect because of the deceit coming from nay backers. They are like the creationists who morphed into intelligent design advocates insisting there is a distinction worth differing over.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Then whose rap sheet does the conviction go on if the sentence is served and he is released? You have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

If someone is stopped, a law has been violated. (if no law violated, it's an unlawful stop, different discussion then). SO.....if a law has been violated, and no ID can be verified, the cop has under his descretion the authority to detain the person UNDER THE INITIAL CHARGE the stop was made on, with a charging document (ticket or warrant) that reads "John Doe". John Doe will then sit in jail until he can provide a verified identification. He will not be released for time served, because the court must put the charge on a rap sheet.

Again, if you get a jaywalking ticket, or simple speeding, whatever, and no ID can be verified, often a cop will let you go and trust the name you gave him or take the fingerprint. Thats sometimes department policy due to manpower and efficiency. You seem to not grasp the difference between legal allowable procedure vs common practiced policy. Department policy is often more restrictive than state and local law. For manpower and efficiency reasons. That doesn't change the issue that BY LAW the cop can detain you under the initial charge until ID is provided.

So, before you attempt it, you're gonna say "But illegals are arrested all the time and released without definite ID". Yes. They are. Thats where the CUSTOMER NUMBER from the DMV comes in. The judge will give time served, use the name and address he provided in a Mexican DL or provided, have a customer number generated in the DMV, and that is the new rap sheet that will begin.

But you will not be sentenced, and released on time served, under "John Doe". That I can 100% guarantee you. You are absolutely wrong on everything you are saying.

Who's rap sheet? Whatever name or alias it is filed under.

D'oh! People have multiple convictions and even a few with sentences served under aliases. In the end identities are matched up. But,...

If a person is arrested without any prior arrests, stops or detentions...a clean slate...and they have no ID....and they are convicted of a crime, never having gotten or posted bail...and then sentenced...when their sentence is up what crime will they be held under..."No busc ID?" they will walk away and have an ID in the database that is either true or an alias.

You're not following. By virtue of your social security number every person has a customer number already. That number can be found with a SS number. In that scenario, which is rare and I've actually never heard of, the Social Security Administration would be notified and a match attempted. Truth is, folks want to get out of jail, so they rarely refuse ID.

Now, can a person assume a false identity? YES, of course, but it would have to be of a person of similar physical characteristics and age. That has happened. A brother using his brother's name, birthday, address, etc. When checked, it comes back to that name, address, and "white male, 5 foot 10, 170 lbs, brown hair" etc. If the description is close, it'll likely slide. It's an unfortunate loophole, but, by fingerprints that person will only be able to do it 1 time. Once the prints are in the system, it's a done deal.

But I can assure with with 100% accuracy that person being charged at released after time served......if there is suspicion the person is providing a false identity, it will be checked intensly prior to release. "John Doe" is an obvious red flag name, so no one will be released under that name unless he's got absolute proof he is in fact named that.

The fake names only last until that first booking and printing. Once in the fingerprint digital database, they're ID'd immediately at the jail intake. So, yes, under a fake name that is a real person (usually a relative or friends name) a person can slip by 1 time as long as their physical description is similar.

If absolutely no ID can be found, then honestly he's likely an illegal alien or a citizen wanted for a murder or something and refuses to provide info. Our current problem is ICE isn't showing up to the jails for the illegals. Policy says the jail notifies ICE, usually through a phone call and voice mail or fax to local ICE office. But 99% of the time ICE ain't coming. It better be 10 or more prisoners to deport or they aren't coming. So, the judge has an illegal immigrant's name and address, fingerprints, and they are released. That name and info is put into the DMV and NCIC for a customer number. Next arrest of that person and the fingerprint will show that customer ID number. But ICE isn't coming.

I knew people who didn't get a SS number until well into their twenties.

I think you are confusing people who refuse to give a name with people who have no ID. If one is sentenced as John Smith with no ID, one is released as John Smith with a print and now these days, a genetic marker.

and I think there are laws baring SS from sharing with local or state police depts. maybe even the feds, unless it was a national security thing. I think you are relying on popular experience and not the exception. But again, there is no law that says one must have ID.

The 5-to-4 decision says that neither the Fourth Amendment's right to privacy nor the Fifth Amendment's guarantee against self-incrimination bars states from passing laws requiring citizens to identify themselves.

...

Hiibel refused to comply. He was charged and convicted of violating the mandatory identity law, a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail. His conviction was affirmed by a state appeals court and the Nevada Supreme Court.

In upholding his conviction and the mandatory identity-disclosure law, the majority justices also said the law only requires that a suspect disclose his or her name, rather than requiring production of a driver's license or other document.

Court: If police ask, you must give your name / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

...every legal US citizen is represented in the DMV, NCIC or SSA and can be located.

If you believe this you aren't half as bright as you suppose. I don't know if or when a SS # was issued at birth, but I do know I was never issued one until I asked for one.

Maybe you never lived in an old city on the east coast.

btw, immigration: Before illegals I knew about WOPs WithOut Papers.Lots of people in America, if they do a family search, will come to a dead end on some relations. I did. I also know Italian and Irish and others who had grandparents who never registered and were here without papers. Never even became citizens. Lived, raised families and died here.

 

[bucs90]

...every legal US citizen is represented in the DMV, NCIC or SSA and can be located.

If you believe this you aren't half as bright as you suppose. I don't know if or when a SS # was issued at birth, but I do know I was never issued one until I asked for one.

Maybe you never lived in an old city on the east coast.

btw, immigration: Before illegals I knew about WOPs WithOut Papers.Lots of people in America, if they do a family search, will come to a dead end on some relations. I did. I also know Italian and Irish and others who had grandparents who never registered and were here without papers. Never even became citizens. Lived, raised families and died here.

Yes, you're given one at birth, unless you are born to a mountain tribe in West Virginia and never had a record of being born. That person would be in no system at all, and once detained, SSA and ICE would be contacted and one would be generated. Before release.

And you said there was a law barring SSA from sharing with local and state LEO. Thats not true. Every person's social security number is listed on their NCIC or DMV printout, accesed by every police dispatch center in America.

I'm not sure where you got the notion that courts are releasing people under the John Doe generic name everywhere simply because they can't confirm an identify of the person, but thats not reality. It ain't happening. I promise.

The problem we have is illegal aliens are being released under false names because LEO and courts can't verify it, and ICE is simply not showing up to take custody. Jail gets overcrowed, so, courts just release them and trust and hope they show up for court.

To simplify the rest:

A) A cop cannot by 4th amendement stop you for no reason and demand ID. You can flip him off and keep walking if he has no other violation to stop you for.

B) If he does have a legal violation to stop you for, it is law in all 50 states that you possess ID. Those laws were pre-computerized era, so now, it's basically unnecessary, because all that info can be verified through a dispatch online check. But the laws exist, in all 50 states, that if you are stopped for a violation, you must present ID. It's 100% fact.

 

[bucs90]

...every legal US citizen is represented in the DMV, NCIC or SSA and can be located.

If you believe this you aren't half as bright as you suppose. I don't know if or when a SS # was issued at birth, but I do know I was never issued one until I asked for one.

Maybe you never lived in an old city on the east coast.

btw, immigration: Before illegals I knew about WOPs WithOut Papers.Lots of people in America, if they do a family search, will come to a dead end on some relations. I did. I also know Italian and Irish and others who had grandparents who never registered and were here without papers. Never even became citizens. Lived, raised families and died here.

Again, I said every LEGAL citizen. Legal being the key word.

 

[bucs90]

And, just to finalize this thread, here:

Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats the commonly used Supreme Court case that states law officers can detain a person indefinitely until ID is confirmed.

"Show me your papers" applies to everyone inside our borders already, not just brown folks in Arizona.

 

[xotoxi]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Wait a minute.

Are you saying that I need to have my driver's license on my person if I choose to go for a walk in my neighborhood?

Where is this law? I would like to see it.

 

[Angelhair]

'long live la raza.'

And which la raza are you talking about???????

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Actually all American Citizens are required to carry identification as well. Police have the right to arrest anyone not carrying legal ID. This has been the Law for many years. It has been proven to be Constitutional so i must accept it. This Arizona law is not "Racist" in any way. The usual suspect Leftists/Democrats have once again played the race card. Hopefully the people of Arizona will stay strong and not be intimidated by these "Community Organizer" cretins. This Arizona Law is perfectly reasonable. Shame on the Left for trying to divide the races for political gain again.

 

[bucs90]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Wait a minute.

Are you saying that I need to have my driver's license on my person if I choose to go for a walk in my neighborhood?

Where is this law? I would like to see it.

Well.....sort of. Yes, all 50 states have law that requires you to possess identification. Those laws are decades old, and pre-computers.

Now, if you don't violate a law, NO police officer can demand your ID. They can demand it ONLY if you've broken a law already, even a minor one. Thats a 4th amendment right.

But, if you break a law like littering or jaywalking, then under the 4th, the cop has legal right to stop you. And upon that, you are legally obligated to provide ID.

Now, if you forgot your DL at home, it's ok. The cops in all 50 states can check your name and birthdate with dispatch, who checks online, and you're ID will come up and dispatch will confirm over the radio that you are who you are, and you'll walk away with a polite warning hopefully and that'll be it.

However, if its' more serious, like possession of drugs or a shoplifting, you can be detained indefinitely until your ID is confirmed. Many PD's don't necessarily practice this, as it is inefficient and overcrowds jails. But it is law, and the "show me your papers" argument against Arizona is fruitless, as it is already law in all 50 states to "show me your papers" to cops during a legal stop, in a car or on foot.

It's just that "show me your papers" for most people is nothing more than a DL check or asking dispatch to verify this name and identity through online DMV or NCIC records. Thats all. So don't sweat your DL going for a walk. Unless you rob someone, you probably won't need it.

 

[bucs90]

Actually all American Citizens are required to carry identification as well. Police have the right to arrest anyone not carrying legal ID. This has been the Law for many years. It has been proven to be Constitutional so i must accept it. This Arizona law is not "Racist" in any way. The usual suspect Leftists/Democrats have once again played the race card. Hopefully the people of Arizona will stay strong and not be intimidated by these "Community Organizer" cretins. This Arizona Law is perfectly reasonable. Shame on the Left for trying to divide the races for political gain again.

Yes, but ONLY if they are stopped for a seperate violation. A cop can't just walk up to me in Wal-Mart and say "show me some ID" and arrest me if I don't. He must have another crime requiring my identity for prosecution before the requirement of ID kicks in.

But you're right, thats all Arizona is doing, is requiring illegals be held to that same standard and ICE to take custody of those who don't.

 

[xotoxi]

All people, immigrant or US citizen, must carry their "papers". US citizens must have in their possession by state laws their state driver's license for purpose of identification. When a person cannot recieve a valid DL due to criminal record or driving suspensions, the state DMV issues an ID-only card, same as a DL, except it will read "ID ONLY" rather than "Class D Driver's License" etc. Absent a DL, all US citizens by state law must have these in possesion.

Thankfully, cops use logic and rarely arrest or charge anyone for not having an ID because the NCIC computer system can confirm a person's identity by providing name a date of birth to the dispatcher, and the online DMV records will confirm that persons identity. So, with no ID, if a cop asks name and date of birth, he can ID you and you can move on. Failing to provide any ID info at all can land you in the booking room under "John Doe" until you can confirm proper identity.

This process is necessary so people with outstanding warrants can be caught rather than them just refusing to provide any name or info.

So, lefties should stop whining about "papers", as all humans inside our borders, by already standing law, are required to have papers or identification on them at all times.

Wait a minute.

Are you saying that I need to have my driver's license on my person if I choose to go for a walk in my neighborhood?

Where is this law? I would like to see it.

Well.....sort of. Yes, all 50 states have law that requires you to possess identification. Those laws are decades old, and pre-computers.

Now, if you don't violate a law, NO police officer can demand your ID. They can demand it ONLY if you've broken a law already, even a minor one. Thats a 4th amendment right.

But, if you break a law like littering or jaywalking, then under the 4th, the cop has legal right to stop you. And upon that, you are legally obligated to provide ID.

Now, if you forgot your DL at home, it's ok. The cops in all 50 states can check your name and birthdate with dispatch, who checks online, and you're ID will come up and dispatch will confirm over the radio that you are who you are, and you'll walk away with a polite warning hopefully and that'll be it.

However, if its' more serious, like possession of drugs or a shoplifting, you can be detained indefinitely until your ID is confirmed. Many PD's don't necessarily practice this, as it is inefficient and overcrowds jails. But it is law, and the "show me your papers" argument against Arizona is fruitless, as it is already law in all 50 states to "show me your papers" to cops during a legal stop, in a car or on foot.

It's just that "show me your papers" for most people is nothing more than a DL check or asking dispatch to verify this name and identity through online DMV or NCIC records. Thats all. So don't sweat your DL going for a walk. Unless you rob someone, you probably won't need it.

I posted my above response prior to seeing your Wikipedia citation.

This does raise the problem: a driver's license does not prove US citizenship.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

If American Citizens are required to possess legal Id,i see no problem with everyone being required to possess legal ID. This Arizona Law is not "Racist." It's actually pretty reasonable. Shame on the Leftists/Democrats for playing the Race Card on this one.

 

[Againsheila]

Oh gosh, oh golly gee. a real country with real borders toto..

Immigrants should be required to carry their papers on them at all times. So what? Citizens do not by law have to do so. Good luck to anybody who thinks they can reliably spot an illegal immigrant, from a legal one or a citizen, all the time.

As a citizen I have the right to walk the streets of my country without having to prove I'm a citizen. That right is more sacrosanct than any imagined health care right.

And if the cops stop you and ask for id and you don't have it, they have the right to take you in, until your id can be proven.

 

[Againsheila]

Actually all American Citizens are required to carry identification as well. Police have the right to arrest anyone not carrying legal ID. This has been the Law for many years. It has been proven to be Constitutional so i must accept it. This Arizona law is not "Racist" in any way. The usual suspect Leftists/Democrats have once again played the race card. Hopefully the people of Arizona will stay strong and not be intimidated by these "Community Organizer" cretins. This Arizona Law is perfectly reasonable. Shame on the Left for trying to divide the races for political gain again.

Yes, but ONLY if they are stopped for a seperate violation. A cop can't just walk up to me in Wal-Mart and say "show me some ID" and arrest me if I don't. He must have another crime requiring my identity for prosecution before the requirement of ID kicks in.

But you're right, thats all Arizona is doing, is requiring illegals be held to that same standard and ICE to take custody of those who don't.

He can if someone with your description is being sought....

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Possessing legal ID is required for American Citizens. The Police do have the right to detain anyone not possessing a legal ID. I see no reason why all people in this country shouldn't be required to show a legal ID. This is the current Law of the land. If you're not here illegally,you have nothing to worry about. We are a nation of Laws. In fact every nation on this Earth has the right to create their own Laws. Illegals do not have the right to dictate what Laws American Citizens can or cannot pass. This is true of any nation. This new Arizona Law is not only reasonable but it's right. The Left has turned this into a race issue like they always do. I think they're underestimating how much many Americans are beginning to resent being called "Racists." This Race Card thing may backfire on them in the end. I hope it does anyway.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Info on Puerto Rico Needed....

Pictures and videos speak a thousand words for themselves. I see and hear no difference between the Mexican and Puerto Rican invasion of America...NONE!

Both Mexico and Puerto Rico are third world countries being used by our enemies in gov't and in our institutions to bankrupt and destroy the Constitutional Republic of America....

I wish I could find some videos and documentation on the Puerto Rican invasion and transformation of many of our communities into socialized third world Peurto Rican ghettos like some that exist here in NY.... Puerto Rico has a population of more than half of our 50 states, and would usurp the true American people, and their form of gov't if given statehood and continued free handouts for the sell out of our sovereignty. For some reason the corporate progressive media and their favorite crooked politicians are hiding this from the public and it is treason!

School kids stick up for flag and country:

FOXNews.com - California Students Sent Home for Wearing U.S. Flags on Cinco de Mayo

Immigrant invasion and subversion:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LHRzxgAxRo&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Radical Immigration Reform Rally, ATL Ga[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLgZ1LWLlko&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - President Obama, No One in Arizona is Laughing[/ame]

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/aztlan-reconquista.gif

Aztlan Rising

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM]YouTube - Aztlan Rising[/ame]

'Machete' trailer, with a special message for Arizona

 

[skookerasbil]

The majority of Arizona’s schoolchildren are already Hispanic. So, even if you sealed the border today, the state’s future is as an Hispanic society: That’s a given. Maybe it’ll all work out swell. The citizenry never voted for it, but they got it anyway. Because all the smart guys in the limos bemoaning the bigots knew what was best for them.

Wow! Hispanics are a threat? Good thing you weren't in Boston, New York, and Chicago when those damned eye-talians with their language and ways were popping out children. nobody voted on allowing them in either. lots of anarchists, commies and fascist came with them.

You go live on the border s0n.................