Can Zionism be compared to Nazism?

[Billo_Really]

Actually the facts are that Israel "stole" no one's land.

They just took it!

 

[Roudy]

Actually the facts are that Israel "stole" no one's land.

They just took it!

Took what, you fucking idiot. The land was Ottoman territory up to WWII, and never belonged to the Arabs for 700 years.

 

[Billo_Really]

Took what, you fucking idiot. The land was Ottoman territory up to WWII, and never belonged to the Arabs for 700 years.

Not according to land records at the time.

 

[barryqwalsh]

7 23 Luckovich cartoon Gaza peace plan Mike Luckovich

 

[Roudy]

Took what, you fucking idiot. The land was Ottoman territory up to WWII, and never belonged to the Arabs for 700 years.

Not according to land records at the time.

1945? Pffffftttttt! After the Arab invasion? In 1945 the land was under the control of the British, after being Ottoman land for 700 years. So again, you got nothing.

Look, we know you're a Pali Nazi loving, Jew hating bum, trying to divert from the subject, which is, the obvious ties between the Palestinians and the Nazis. The topic you're diverting to has been discussed before and your bullshit propaganda has failed epically as usual.

 

[Roudy]

7 23 Luckovich cartoon Gaza peace plan Mike Luckovich

 

[Roudy]

 

[toastman]

Took what, you fucking idiot. The land was Ottoman territory up to WWII, and never belonged to the Arabs for 700 years.

Not according to land records at the time.

You don't get it do you ?? Owning land and having sovereignty over the region in which that land lies are two different things. Arab never had any control over that land.

 

[Phoenall]

Like this perhaps

How many members does the anti-Zionism organization of Jews in America have - Quora

[T]here is an extremely fringe group numbering (and this is my educated estimation) between 50 and 150 "Ultra Orthodox" individuals who belong to groups like Neturei Karta (for an image see Omer Zach's answer). They are the ones that tend to be loud and radical in their opposition, and due to the "man bites dog" nature of any news story showing very religious Jews opposing the Jewish state and siding with the Palestinian cause, make quite a stir.

Funny little link that one...

I think you didn't read it properly....

"There are probably fewer than 100 actual Neturei Karta activists (the ones carrying placards and speaking at anti-Israel rallies), but the total number of people who would identify themselves as Neturei Karta in New York, England and Israel could be as many as a few thousand. Neturei Karta members often claim that tens or even hundreds of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews and Hassidim share their beliefs, but this is patently false."

So, "probably" and "could be" are hardly accurate indications of fact from a reliable(?) source are they!

To then finish off with "patently false"... REALLY?!

How so? Where is the supporting documentary evidence to prove that? Pure conjecture!

Same place your supporting documentary evidence is of course, and I am still waiting for any evidence from you to back up your claims.

Which claims Phoney?

OH! the masny hundreds you make without any links to support them of course, and don't say you don't do this as very nearly every one of your posts has a claim in it that has no supporting evidence

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHA!!!! And that comes from PHONEY PHAIL?!?!?!

However, read my comment and tell me which claims I made in this thread you are asking me to back up Phoney...

Changing the rules to suit are you, well it wont work you make claims that you cant back up all the time. But are quick to demand evidence of other peoples claims.

Your turn to produce evidence of your many claims, that is if you have the gonads to do so ?

 

[Phoenall]

But Phoney, you keep telling us that Wikipedia is an unreliable, biased, source because everyone can edit it....

I like how he posts links and expects the reader to go hunt for the applicable comments to his claim?

It's an old tactic used by Hasbarats, the idea is to get you to waste time looking stuff up, which may or may not exist, in the links provided. by the time you find what you are looking for, the conversation has moved on. It's in the Hasbarat manual https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Hasbara_(2009_manual)

Did you do a search on the validity of your link, as it is shown to be much like the Protocols and ISLAMONAZI invention..


Is this the new buzz word that ISLAMONAZI STOOGES will wear out and have no meaning in 6 months time.

See you in 6 months....

Why are you going to Syria to fight for Mohamed ?

 

[Lipush]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

 

[Phoenall]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

Lets run with this and declare them no longer arabs but muslims cos team Palestine has said so. The morons will soon be singing a different song and showing they don't have the brains to do anything

 

[montelatici]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

And, you are a moron because you don't do your homework before posting nonsense.

Racial discrimination as defined by the:

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

Adopted and opened for signature and ratification by General Assembly resolution 2106 (XX) of 21 December 1965
entry into force 4 January 1969, in accordance with Article 19

"Article 1

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

 

[Hossfly]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

And, you are a moron because you don't do your homework before posting nonsense.

Racial discrimination as defined by the:

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

Adopted and opened for signature and ratification by General Assembly resolution 2106 (XX) of 21 December 1965
entry into force 4 January 1969, in accordance with Article 19

"Article 1

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

The many meanings of “race”
The modern meaning of the term race with reference to humans began to emerge in the 17th century. Since then it has had a variety of meanings in the languages of the Western world. What most definitions have in common is an attempt to categorize peoples primarily by their physical differences. In the United States, for example, the term race generally refers to a group of people who have in common some visible physical traits, such as skin colour, hair texture, facial features, and eye formation. Such distinctive features are associated with large, geographically separated populations, and these continental aggregates are also designated as races, as the “African race,” the “European race,” and the “Asian race.” Many people think of race as reflective of any visible physical (phenotypic) variations among human groups, regardless of the cultural context and even in the absence of fixed racial categories.

race human Encyclopedia Britannica

 

[Daniyel]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

And, you are a moron because you don't do your homework before posting nonsense.

Racial discrimination as defined by the:

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

Adopted and opened for signature and ratification by General Assembly resolution 2106 (XX) of 21 December 1965
entry into force 4 January 1969, in accordance with Article 19

"Article 1

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

You missed the part about race.

 

[montelatici]

You missed the part about the legal definition of racial discrimination. Instead of blathering nonsense I posted the source document to make my point.

 

[theliq]

Palestinian Arab Muslims aren't subject to death squads, mechanized death camps and pogroms issued to wipe out their culture. No, Arab Muslim Palestinians need to accept their neighbors instead of this vicious cycle of death they are now engaged in...

Well for your information,I have lived in Israel for 9 months and often Jewish Death Squads did go out at night and shoot Palestinians randomly............so stop talking of which you know nothing about

Facts do not lie,over 70,000+ Palestinians slaughtered since 1948 and thousands before,compared to 11,000 Jews........................This of course could all end if Israel committed to a 2 state solution and stopped this voracious land grabbing etc,.

This is a ploy by Israel to gain Land which is not theirs.......Europe and the rest of the World can see clearly what Israel is up to............and they are against it,despite Israel's whinging.

All these murders and deaths for both sides is an abomination.........A peaceful Israel and peaceful Palestine...is my desire.........just a shame the Trolls on here do not think the same.

I agree with you regarding the Pogroms and the Nazis and for Centuries before....but this repulsive attitude towards Jews was in the main done by barbaric Christians.....During this period Jews lived in harmony throughout the Arab world.......The Palesinians in particular got on very well with the Jews prior to the illegal immigration of Jews into Palestine after 1922.

Most Jews but not all left Arab lands after in 1948 for obvious reasons....steven

 

[theliq]

Can you just picture, Roudy , Ms. Tokyo Rose, the birdbrain, getting up at her next Bund meeting telling the other skinheads that she worked very diligently on the forum trying to get the readers to accept that Zionism is the same as Nazism. Perhaps she can show us some pictures of the skin and bone Palestinians which are similar to those we have seen in pictures of actual concentration camp survivors. The birdbrain would have applied for the job to throw the Jews into the ovens.

YAWN!

Go to sleep. With all the yawning you seem to miss decent sleeping hours

Oh I sleep very well Lipush... Believe me!

It's the boring Copy & Paste bandits that make me sleepy...

It's like... Contribution? Zero!

Perhaps if they had something interesting to say, something NEW, then it would make for interesting debate...

Alas, no, copy and paste the same crap, the same images, yadda yadda yadda...

Ms. Tokyo Rose, the birdbrain, forgets that she is the one who started this thread trying to compare Zionism to Nazism. The anti-Semites have been bringing up the same old thing for years on forums so is the birdbrain really bringing up something new? It would, though, be interesting if the birdbrain did bring up some pictures of Nazi concentration camp victims so that we could compare them to the present day Palestinians. How about it, birdbrain? Do you have any pictures so that we can compared both groups of people?

It's ironic (or perhaps predictable) that it's the Nazi types among us who try desperately to equate Zionism to Nazism.

Ironic maybe,but true all the same

 

[SAYIT]

YAWN!

Go to sleep. With all the yawning you seem to miss decent sleeping hours

Oh I sleep very well Lipush... Believe me!

It's the boring Copy & Paste bandits that make me sleepy...

It's like... Contribution? Zero!

Perhaps if they had something interesting to say, something NEW, then it would make for interesting debate...

Alas, no, copy and paste the same crap, the same images, yadda yadda yadda...

Ms. Tokyo Rose, the birdbrain, forgets that she is the one who started this thread trying to compare Zionism to Nazism. The anti-Semites have been bringing up the same old thing for years on forums so is the birdbrain really bringing up something new? It would, though, be interesting if the birdbrain did bring up some pictures of Nazi concentration camp victims so that we could compare them to the present day Palestinians. How about it, birdbrain? Do you have any pictures so that we can compared both groups of people?

It's ironic (or perhaps predictable) that it's the Nazi types among us who try desperately to equate Zionism to Nazism.

Ironic maybe,but true all the same

At least it is true (as well as ironic and predictable) that you Nazi types try desperately to equate Zionism to Nazism.

 

[theliq]

false comparison

In what way Daniyel?

The comparisons made in the article are based on factual evidence. It's up to the reader to interpret the valid facts.

False comparison by comparing the incomparable, and making facts related when they are not.
For instance - Stealing land, all over the years land exchanged control by factions/groups, they consider it stealing (stealing is taking what is not yours from unaware subject) - and the author draw it as facts that Israel 'stole the land' as much as the Nazis 'stole the land' - so I'll relate to the general speaking - while in fact Israel defended the territory by defeating the aggressors but the Nazis tried to conquer the world for posing their ideology of Nazism, the Nazis didn't had much need for the land, they only needed to control the population - Israel need the land in order to survive and Israel been targeted so many times I lost count - nobody posed threat to the Nazis - they didn't fought anyone specific and had no reason to - except themselves (like the Palestinians btw) and later it spread, when Israel doesn't even bother to spread but only wish to maintain peaceful life.

Now lets take a look and see what a nice trick was made in their.
The article begins with a propaganda (sign) gained popularity to counter the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" and so we see in the first paragraph.
The article determine facts based over that propaganda - Zionists STOLE land from certain people(obviously the Palestinians, I dunno if that is even pro-Palestinian article but basically this is only anti-Israeli(Zion) propaganda which turns out to be anti-Semitic after all - Israel is by all means just as your avatar) so as we said the author determined an inciting wrong fact and pose a false comparison based on that - trying to place the facts as they fit when they are not.
The article also continue by giving you similar examples of "the bad guys" and give you false comparisons to "facts" so you could connect the dots which brought up to your head in the first paragraph - not Jews! Just the Jews.

Again, compare the following paragraph to the article.
Nazism = Vegetarianism

Just to make some points clear - Vegetarianism is not normal way of life people born to but its abnormal people which seek to change their eating habits unlike the rest of the normal people, they are completely separate from normal eating behaviors, totally different.
Bloodshed and slaughter.
The Nazis killed millions during WWII, when Vegetarians slaughter cucumbers by their millions everyday!! -

ridiculous now Isn't it?

The Facts are Israel has stolen land,the Zionists and others have tried to systematically eliminate a race of people,the Palestinians(and thankfully failed despite all their hatred and anti-semetism)

stolen lands that belonged to the Jews in the first place...

"race" of the palestinians? Palestinians are a race now?

Wow, you're one superior human being, aren't ya?

I try to be humble on here but you are right of course..........compared to the irractic on here