Can You Be Both An American and A Progressive?

[EriktheRed]

Some of the people posting on this topic seem to have a real problem with anybody trying to define American culture and what is a distinctly American train of thought and what , like Progressivism , runs counter to our culture as Americans . They seem to feel as if freedom means anything goes and they shouldn't be ostricized for adopting a philosophy that is unAmerican . It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle . Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we? What if way back when members of some Great Plains Indian tribe had decided that killing buffalo was wrong and tried to convince everybody else that it was ? That would have gone counter to that tribe's culture and the people that held the view point killing buffalo was wrong would have found themselves outside the circle . There are many things that run counter to American culture . Progressivism is one of them . And another thing that comes to mind are practitioners of Sharia law . Our philosophy is that church and state should be seperate . Would we be wrong to say that Sharia law is unAmerican . Are we as Americans not allowed to define our own cultural values ? Does freedom mean we must roll out the welcome mat for every train of thought on the planet ?

A lot of words, but no real reason given for what makes progressivism "un-American".

As to this part in particular....

Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we?

...who's "we"?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Of course you can.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

But, before extolling the virtues of progressivism, better do some reading on the damage done and the resulting depression of 1920 & 1921.

 

[EriktheRed]

I would have to say yes because being an American just refers to your nation of origin and not your political beliefs.

"Being an American" is a state of one's patriotism; Progressives can't and won't be patriotic.

And you still haven't shared with the class who you think is deserving of 1st Amendment protections.

 

[EriktheRed]

But, before extolling the virtues of progressivism, better do some reading on the damage done and the resulting depression of 1920 & 1921.

Uh...you mind explaining how progressive policies caused that to happen?

 

[rikules]

can you be progressive and still be an American?

yes.
absolutely!


can you be a conservative and still be an American?

no.
It's impossible


todays modern conservatives range from very stupid people who think they are smart to very smart people who know how to dupe the stupid ones.

todays modern conservatives, while vocally defending freedoms and rights, really only believe in freedom and rights for themselves.

all others need not apply.

 

[rikules]

What a load of diaper sludge.

I hope you didnt spend to much time on this hate rant.

Interesting approach to intellectual discourse.

you delude yourself.

you did NOT post anything even remotely approximating intellectual discourse.

you are merely regurgitating more hatebased conservative nonsense.

you are essenrially stating "only CONSERVATIVES are REAL Americans"

nothing intellectual about that kind of BS at all

 

[rikules]

crazy conservative chic vomits;

"I note that there is not an error that you can find in the post, and, therefore, athe use of the phrase "that type of lunacy" indicates a transparent attempt to divert from that which you cannot defend."


--------------------


ERRORS in crazy conservative chics initial post;


a. progressives can NOT be real Americans.
false. Since one of the main premises of America is FREE SPEECH and FREE THOUGHT then progressives CAN BE real Americans.

on the other hand, any person (todays modern conservatives) who state that people who do NOT hold conservative beliefs are NOT REAL Americans are proving that THEY are the ones who are NOT REAL Americans.

b. you quote woodrow wilson. a guy who has been dead for decades. Todays progressives are NOT the same as progressives from wilsons day. This is just as FALSE and STUPID as if we were to equate todays modern conservatives with conservatives like hitler or mussiloni


"1. The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are founded on the idea that people are born with inalienable rights, given by one’s Creator, not by a legislative body or government that can decide which ones you have, and can remove them."

yet I have no doubt that you and your conservative friends would take righst away from NATURAL BORN Americans simply for NOT HAVING the right opinions...

or for being gay; conservatives work dilligently to deny natural born American GAY citizens the right to marry or to join the military.

conservative christians routinely state their belief that ONLY christians should have the right to be elected to public office

you accuse your enemies of your own crimes.

or, at the very least, you accuse liberals/progresives of a crime that your friends (conservative christians) are even MORE GUILTY of.


2. The founders believed in the sanctity of private property…but not Progressives:

this is just nonsense. Once again you quote a guy who no longer applies.

I have no doubt that progressives believe MORE in the sanctity/right or private property than most conservatives do.

3. How about the idea of checks and balances, you know, so that no one branch or individual accumulates too much power? Good idea or bad?

checks an dbalances are a good idea.
I wish that cons felt the same way. Unfortunately, what with their STATED GOALS of
a. taking over the supreme court
b. taking over as many smaller courts as they can
c. taking over school boards
d. attacking the democratic party until it becomes insignificant
e. gaining more control and influence in the military
f. reclaiming the presidency

it is OBVIOUS that they want NO CHECKS or BALANCES to keep them in line


4. Progressives know how stupid the masses are, and that is why Progressive journalists editorialize instead of report the news… to tell you what you should think.

and this is different from limbaugh, coulter (and so many other con spinmeisters) and fox news...how?


Once again
your whole piece is merely just more regurgitated misinformation and false accusations.

and it REEKS of ignorance.

you accuse your enemies of your parties own crimes

it's obvious that you are just another one of the many I-HATE-LIBERALS conservatives that infest our nation

I can tell you really believe this nonsense and that shows that you are of limited intellectual abilities

fox news and hate radio just LOVE stupid people like you

 

[drsmith1072]

Can you be both a Progressive and an American?

Well, let’s see what Progressives believe, and see if you can subscribe…

1. The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are founded on the idea that people are born with inalienable rights, given by one’s Creator, not by a legislative body or government that can decide which ones you have, and can remove them.

It's funny how the right doesn't actually believe that to be the case.

Because if "people" are born with inalienable rights and terrorists are people don't the terrorists have those same inalienable rights that a legislative body or government can NOT take away??

What legal reason do you have for denying "people" their inalienable rights?

 

[drsmith1072]

So progressives are the latest ememy of America?
Why?
And just what is a progressive?

Why?? Because glenn beck told them so, that's why. LOL

 

[Father Time]

Some of the people posting on this topic seem to have a real problem with anybody trying to define American culture and what is a distinctly American train of thought and what , like Progressivism , runs counter to our culture as Americans . They seem to feel as if freedom means anything goes and they shouldn't be ostricized for adopting a philosophy that is unAmerican . It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle . Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we?

Cultures change, to resist something solely because it might change the culture in some way is stupid. Oh and 'everyone else does something therefore it must have something going for it' is a logical fallacy.

 

[HUGGY]

Can you be both a Progressive and an American?

Well, let’s see what Progressives believe, and see if you can subscribe…

1. The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are founded on the idea that people are born with inalienable rights, given by one’s Creator, not by a legislative body or government that can decide which ones you have, and can remove them.
a. Not according to Progressives. Woodrow Wilson, of the Declaration of Independence, from “What is Progress?”
“Some citizens of this country never got beyond the Declaration of Independence, signed in Philadelphia, July 4th, 1776….The Declaration of Independence did not mention the questions of our day. It is of no consequence to us unless we can translate its general terms into examples of the present day and substitute them in some vital way for the examples it itself gives…”
b. Wilson: “ the Constitution could be stripped off and thrown aside…”( Project MUSE - Journal of Policy History - Woodrow Wilson and a World Governed by Evolving Law Project MUSE Journals Journal of Policy History Volume 20, Number 1, 2008 Project MUSE - Journal of Policy History - Woodrow Wilson and a World Governed by Evolving Law
The Constitution stands in the way of the Progressives' agenda.

2. The founders believed in the sanctity of private property…but not Progressives:
a. Madison, 1792, said that ‘property’ included our natural rights, and the goal of government is the protection of property.
b. Woodrow Wilson, in his essay “Socialism and Democracy” said ‘Limitations of public authority must be put aside; the state may cross that boundary at will.’ The collective is not limited by individual rights.


3. How about the idea of checks and balances, you know, so that no one branch or individual accumulates too much power? Good idea or bad?
a.Federalist #10- checks and balances, to keep passions in check.
b. Tocqueville tells how centralization of power can lead to despotism. “Beware of government by experts and bureaucrats.”
c. Woodrow Wilson, in his essay “What is Progress?” Wilson compares the Founders ideas of checks and balances as the construction of a government as one would construct an orrery, a simple machine, based on immutable laws as in Newtonian physics, while he contends that government should conform to Darwin. “It is modified by its environment, necessitated by its tasks, shaped to its functions by the sheer pressure of life. No living thing can have its organs offset against each other, as checks, and live.” See, Progressives want on separation or check on the power to do as they wish.


4. Progressives know how stupid the masses are, and that is why Progressive journalists editorialize instead of report the news… to tell you what you should think.
a. : “President Woodrow Wilson, a leading progressive, spoke often of his "vision," introducing a term that has now become central to our understanding of presidential politics. Wilson believed, as Kesler puts it, "that to become a leader you have to have a vision of the future and communicate that vision to the unanointed, mass public. You have to make them believe in your prophetic ability."
The Roots Of Liberalism - Forbes.com
b. Modern journalism is based on Progressives’ ideas: use the media to ‘teach’ people. Alter journalism from reporting facts to editorializing in the news, as the elites always know better. Walter Lippmann, Progressive (American newspaper commentator and author who in a 60-year career made himself one of the most widely respected political columnists in the world.)Public Opinion, “When properly deployed in the public interest, the manufacture of consent is useful and necessary for a cohesive society, because, in many cases, “the common interests” of the public are not obvious, and only become clear upon careful analysis of the collected data — a critical intellectual exercise in which most people either are uninterested or incapable of doing. Therefore, most people must have the world summarized for them, by the well-informed.” Public Opinion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


5.But that’s the ‘old time’ Progressive…not the current group. Right? Wrong.
a. Does President Obama believe in three separate branches of government? Well, Congress refused to pass his commission idea, so in the SOTU he said he’d just use executive order to create it. And he insisted that Congress overturn the Supreme Court decision…or, I guess, another executive order?
b. Ms. Clinton: “"I prefer the word ‘progressive,’ which has a real American meaning, going back to the progressive era at the beginning of the 20th century.” Hillary Clinton: I’m Not a Liberal
c. Axelrod claims the WH is Progressive:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j4PxJ4uH-t4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j4PxJ4uH-t4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

You are as about as disengenuous as one can get. The main failure, of your ignorant yet somehow strangely coherent diatride from someone that just does not get it, is that the "centralization of power" of which you refer to has only a symbionic relationship to the government elected by its citizens. The danger which is real is when unregulated wealth which is potentially a dangerous influence power corrupts our elected representatives and is the primary driver in fascist governmental decisions. Blaming "progressives" for the evil in government is rediculous. Although a handful democrats are no better than the phoney conservatives ...ALL conservatives are lying traitors that would slit thier own mothers and childrens throats bought and paid for by lobbiest whores on behalf of corporations that have no more interest in the future of our country than what resources and treasury they can steal.

I'm sure you have a vast audience of idiots that lap up you traitorous lies like mothers milk. I assure you that I am not one of your fans. You and those like you that know the truth and willfully infect the public with this kind of venom deserve the fate of a cocroach.

 

[drsmith1072]

You're comparing stupid kids wearing Che shirts to a terrorist attack?

Exactluy when do you say to yourself..."this can only lead to something bad"

When stupid people start trying to base national policies on a book that praises genocide and the massacre of children, I worry.

Also when any politician starts spouting neoKeyensian bullshit or implying that we'll have a smaller target on our back if we invade a few more countries.

Oh, I see. Lets wait for them to become adults.
OK.
Good luck with that.

What would you choose to do with these kids who wear clothing that makes you uncomfortable??

 

[Darkwind]

can you be progressive and still be an American?

yes.
absolutely!


can you be a conservative and still be an American?

no.
It's impossible


todays modern conservatives range from very stupid people who think they are smart to very smart people who know how to dupe the stupid ones.

todays modern conservatives, while vocally defending freedoms and rights, really only believe in freedom and rights for themselves.

all others need not apply.

This is actually one of the best descriptions and definitions of a Democrat I've seen in a long time.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Can you be both a Progressive and an American?

Well, let&#8217;s see what Progressives believe, and see if you can subscribe&#8230;

1. The Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution are founded on the idea that people are born with inalienable rights, given by one&#8217;s Creator, not by a legislative body or government that can decide which ones you have, and can remove them.
a. Not according to Progressives. Woodrow Wilson, of the Declaration of Independence, from &#8220;What is Progress?&#8221;
&#8220;Some citizens of this country never got beyond the Declaration of Independence, signed in Philadelphia, July 4th, 1776&#8230;.The Declaration of Independence did not mention the questions of our day. It is of no consequence to us unless we can translate its general terms into examples of the present day and substitute them in some vital way for the examples it itself gives&#8230;&#8221;
b. Wilson: &#8220; the Constitution could be stripped off and thrown aside&#8230;&#8221;( Project MUSE - Journal of Policy History - Woodrow Wilson and a World Governed by Evolving Law Project MUSE Journals Journal of Policy History Volume 20, Number 1, 2008 Project MUSE - Journal of Policy History - Woodrow Wilson and a World Governed by Evolving Law
The Constitution stands in the way of the Progressives' agenda.

2. The founders believed in the sanctity of private property&#8230;but not Progressives:
a. Madison, 1792, said that &#8216;property&#8217; included our natural rights, and the goal of government is the protection of property.
b. Woodrow Wilson, in his essay &#8220;Socialism and Democracy&#8221; said &#8216;Limitations of public authority must be put aside; the state may cross that boundary at will.&#8217; The collective is not limited by individual rights.


3. How about the idea of checks and balances, you know, so that no one branch or individual accumulates too much power? Good idea or bad?
a.Federalist #10- checks and balances, to keep passions in check.
b. Tocqueville tells how centralization of power can lead to despotism. &#8220;Beware of government by experts and bureaucrats.&#8221;
c. Woodrow Wilson, in his essay &#8220;What is Progress?&#8221; Wilson compares the Founders ideas of checks and balances as the construction of a government as one would construct an orrery, a simple machine, based on immutable laws as in Newtonian physics, while he contends that government should conform to Darwin. &#8220;It is modified by its environment, necessitated by its tasks, shaped to its functions by the sheer pressure of life. No living thing can have its organs offset against each other, as checks, and live.&#8221; See, Progressives want on separation or check on the power to do as they wish.


4. Progressives know how stupid the masses are, and that is why Progressive journalists editorialize instead of report the news&#8230; to tell you what you should think.
a. : &#8220;President Woodrow Wilson, a leading progressive, spoke often of his "vision," introducing a term that has now become central to our understanding of presidential politics. Wilson believed, as Kesler puts it, "that to become a leader you have to have a vision of the future and communicate that vision to the unanointed, mass public. You have to make them believe in your prophetic ability."
The Roots Of Liberalism - Forbes.com
b. Modern journalism is based on Progressives&#8217; ideas: use the media to &#8216;teach&#8217; people. Alter journalism from reporting facts to editorializing in the news, as the elites always know better. Walter Lippmann, Progressive (American newspaper commentator and author who in a 60-year career made himself one of the most widely respected political columnists in the world.)Public Opinion, &#8220;When properly deployed in the public interest, the manufacture of consent is useful and necessary for a cohesive society, because, in many cases, &#8220;the common interests&#8221; of the public are not obvious, and only become clear upon careful analysis of the collected data &#8212; a critical intellectual exercise in which most people either are uninterested or incapable of doing. Therefore, most people must have the world summarized for them, by the well-informed.&#8221; Public Opinion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


5.But that&#8217;s the &#8216;old time&#8217; Progressive&#8230;not the current group. Right? Wrong.
a. Does President Obama believe in three separate branches of government? Well, Congress refused to pass his commission idea, so in the SOTU he said he&#8217;d just use executive order to create it. And he insisted that Congress overturn the Supreme Court decision&#8230;or, I guess, another executive order?
b. Ms. Clinton: &#8220;"I prefer the word &#8216;progressive,&#8217; which has a real American meaning, going back to the progressive era at the beginning of the 20th century.&#8221; Hillary Clinton: I&#8217;m Not a Liberal
c. Axelrod claims the WH is Progressive:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j4PxJ4uH-t4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j4PxJ4uH-t4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

You are as about as disengenuous as one can get. The main failure, of your ignorant yet somehow strangely coherent diatride from someone that just does not get it, is that the "centralization of power" of which you refer to has only a symbionic relationship to the government elected by its citizens. The danger which is real is when unregulated wealth which is potentially a dangerous influence power corrupts our elected representatives and is the primary driver in fascist governmental decisions. Blaming "progressives" for the evil in government is rediculous. Although a handful democrats are no better than the phoney conservatives ...ALL conservatives are lying traitors that would slit thier own mothers and childrens throats bought and paid for by lobbiest whores on behalf of corporations that have no more interest in the future of our country than what resources and treasury they can steal.

I'm sure you have a vast audience of idiots that lap up you traitorous lies like mothers milk. I assure you that I am not one of your fans. You and those like you that know the truth and willfully infect the public with this kind of venom deserve the fate of a cocroach.

I appreciate your taking the time to read what I knew to be a fairly long and information-laden post.

But, I must correct your accusation of 'disingenuous.'

I am always straightforward. I post on subjects that I find interesting, and state what I believe, and document where possible. And link, so you can check on what I say.

I don't really understand the anger you seem able to get going over a premise that you can either subscribe to, or say you feel the opposite.

The main idea is that the Founders, as written in the Constitution believed

1. that people need various checks and balances because the tempation of power is too great.

2. human rights are not determined by laws or governments, but are inate.

3. changes to the Constitution must be via the amendment process.

Progressives, the predecessors of the modern liberals, believe that rights can be abridged or changed by government, power should be centralized, and the Constitution is 'living,' and can be changed by the generation in power.

Basically, that's it.

I admit that I juiced up the idea with that catchy title...but, still, the OP is an historic exposition.

I wouldn't read any throat-cutting into it.

 

[drsmith1072]

Conservatives trying to label progressives as un-American.

How novel.

LOL it's just another way for the right to question the patriotism of any that disagree with the right's opinions.

Same shite, different president.

 

[drsmith1072]

I find it hilarious that the very people who have no scruples, character or honor on these forums now question those very qualities of others in the opposing ideological camp. Those of you who do nothing but ridicule, insult and hurl vile invectives at you political opponents are suddenly taken aback at your ideology being (correctly) identified and exposed to the attention of the rest of the world.

Pathetic is an apt word to describe you all.

Pathetic is your pontification...

I see that you still have nothing worth imparting to the world. Not surprising.

Let Me know when your brain wakes up. Bye bye now.

In case you missed it, your post added NOTHING to the debate either and therefore based on your own logic your statements and attacks apply to you as much as they do anyone you inteneded them to target. LOL

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

I appreciate your taking the time to read what I knew to be a fairly long and information-laden post.

But, I must correct your accusation of 'disingenuous.'

Is that why you were called out on a quotemine a few pages back?

 

[edthecynic]

1. that people need various checks and balances because the tempation of power is too great.

2. human rights are not determined by laws or governments, but are inate.

3. changes to the Constitution must be via the amendment process.

Now hold on a minute there Slick.

The Extreme Court just declared that corporations are "people" too without an amendment and CON$ want NO checks and balances on corporate power at all!!!

CON$ are just like Libs ... Only MORE so!

 

[rikules]

Some of the people posting on this topic seem to have a real problem with anybody trying to define American culture and what is a distinctly American train of thought and what , like Progressivism , runs counter to our culture as Americans . They seem to feel as if freedom means anything goes and they shouldn't be ostricized for adopting a philosophy that is unAmerican . It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle . Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we? What if way back when members of some Great Plains Indian tribe had decided that killing buffalo was wrong and tried to convince everybody else that it was ? That would have gone counter to that tribe's culture and the people that held the view point killing buffalo was wrong would have found themselves outside the circle . There are many things that run counter to American culture . Progressivism is one of them . And another thing that comes to mind are practitioners of Sharia law . Our philosophy is that church and state should be seperate . Would we be wrong to say that Sharia law is unAmerican . Are we as Americans not allowed to define our own cultural values ? Does freedom mean we must roll out the welcome mat for every train of thought on the planet ?

"Some of the people posting on this topic seem to have a real problem with anybody trying to define American culture and what is a distinctly American train of thought"

of course we do.

we are freedom loving and rational people.

instead of just MINDLESSLY obeying outdated cultural rules and regulations we piss on them.

which is more water than they deserve.

The whole point of America and FREEDOM OF THOUGHT is to allow people the right to evolve beyond irrational and illogical (and often unconstitutional) cultural mores





" and what , like Progressivism , runs counter to our culture as Americans "

too bad for you.

That's life.

That's evolution

That's progress.

and you are wrong....progress is NOT COUNTER to our culture...

it is the BASIS of it.



". They seem to feel as if freedom means anything goes and they shouldn't be ostricized for adopting a philosophy that is unAmerican "


yawn...(so many of you conservatives with these laughable opinions....)

no we do NOT feel as if ANYTHING goes

we have limits.

we just believe that laws and rules and culture ought to be determined by logic and reason and NOT outdated, antiquated, irrational and illogical religious principles.

and yes...we should NOT be ostracized for being different

That is COMPLETELY UNAmerican.




". It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle ."


we aren't.
we know how primitive savages behave.

and I hope that YOU are not surprised when we progressives refer to you primitive savages and your tendency to try and punish people for not being mindless morons as the ignorant facist morons we know you to be.



" Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we?"


we should.
And that is what we are doing.

we are using logic and reasn and intelligence to help change and mold our culture/society into a sane and rational direction.

where-as you are merely reflexively trying to FORCE US ALL to behave according to your primitive and irrational religious/conservative beliefs.


" There are many things that run counter to American culture . Progressivism is one of them ."

Nope.
You are completely wrong.

we all have a right, in fact....a DUTY....
to think
to evolve
to grow
to alter our ways of thinking
to modify our culture
to change our ways, our society, our government


" And another thing that comes to mind are practitioners of Sharia law . Our philosophy is that church and state should be seperate . Would we be wrong to say that Sharia law is unAmerican ."

separation of church and state is American.
if sharia law is contrary to that then it is UNAmerican
any christian who wants to impose his bible is UNAmerican
any conservative who demands that we MUST adhere to outdated and unconstitutional cultural standards is UNAmerican.





" Are we as Americans not allowed to define our own cultural values ? "

We are.
we are defining them ALL the time


That is why today divorce is easier to get
and more and more people live together without getting married
and MOST of us have sex before marriage
and blacks and whites marry and nobody cares anymore
and women serve in the military
and gays are out and about EVERYWHERE
and more and more people are claiming to be atheists and agnostics...

we are re-defining our culture as we grow and evolve...

well....when I say we...I don't include you....


"Does freedom mean we must roll out the welcome mat for every train of thought on the planet ? "

probably not.

but it ALSO doesn't mean you get to deny ALL TRAINS of thought that you don't understand