Can there really be a two state solution?

[Kondor3]

yayayaya...I know what you're solution is Kondor and you know what I think of it

You can think of it what you will.

A one-state solution is not viable.

A two-state solution is not viable.

The situation will remain in stasis until Israel decides that there is more danger in leaving the Palestinians in-place than there is in expelling them.

And then things will happen at the speed of light.

So quickly that outside intervention will be impossible.

The mark of high-quality tactical planning and logistics.

Two aspects of military operations that the Israelis positively excel at.

What you or I think of it matters very little, once the shit hits the fan.

 

[Billo_Really]

What does being nuclear have to do with anything ?? Pakistan is nuclear and the Taliban attack there constantly.

Israel will never give up East Jerusalem. Never. Ever. Never. Ever. Get that through your thick skull

Can't give up what you don't have.

And Israel does not have East Jerusalem.

 

[toastman]

What does being nuclear have to do with anything ?? Pakistan is nuclear and the Taliban attack there constantly.

Israel will never give up East Jerusalem. Never. Ever. Never. Ever. Get that through your thick skull

Can't give up what you don't have.

And Israel does not have East Jerusalem.

Control, occupy. Call it whatever you want, but Israel will NEVER relinquish control over E. Jerusalem where it's most holy sites are located. Specially not to a violent people who want Israel gone.

 

[Billo_Really]

Control, occupy. Call it whatever you want, but Israel will NEVER relinquish control over E. Jerusalem where it's most holy sites are located. Specially not to a violent people who want Israel gone.

If you were the victim of a "home invasion", would you want those responsible to stay?

 

[Phoenall]

What does being nuclear have to do with anything ?? Pakistan is nuclear and the Taliban attack there constantly.

Israel will never give up East Jerusalem. Never. Ever. Never. Ever. Get that through your thick skull

Can't give up what you don't have.

And Israel does not have East Jerusalem.

Don't be so sure, as the Palestinians could be evicted from the Jewish owned property they stole in 1948 and were would that leave them

 

[Phoenall]

Control, occupy. Call it whatever you want, but Israel will NEVER relinquish control over E. Jerusalem where it's most holy sites are located. Specially not to a violent people who want Israel gone.

If you were the victim of a "home invasion", would you want those responsible to stay?

Exactly what the Jews are doing, taking back what is theirs by right and evicting the thieves.

 

[docmauser1]

Why?! I'm not a democrat and racist, or a drive-by Goody-Twoshoes from some NGO, or a USMB hypocrite, etc..

There is a term for this...oh yes - Drivel. You offer nothing to the table.

Drivel.

 

[docmauser1]

If you were the victim of a "home invasion", would you want those responsible to stay?

Israel didn't invade palistanian respective homelands in the hood.

 

[docmauser1]

funny, is the reality of intent of driving jews out as entertaining as my "fantasy"? heh

That is no more an acceptable solution than ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.

Why, but it is perfectly acceptable! Jews, being the politically incorrect community, "must" abandon the eastern Jerusalem, jews "must" abandon judea and samaria, jews "must accept" the "right of return" that will drive jews out, in short, imagined peace and quiet for Europe and others "must" be bought and paid for in jews.

You must be confused.

Nah.

Jews are clearly the "politically correct" community as I'm sure you are aware.

Nah, no aware.

Just look at the posts in these boards, they are overwelmingly pro-Jewish/pro-Israeli. So let's stop pretending it's poor little Israel vs the big bad world that wants to eliminate them.

Cool! So, not everyone is a common core product!

Israel "must accept" the right of return? No. That is not a widely supported position in the international community. Most people realize that would be demographic suicide and that any viable solution to the conflict must recognize Israel's need for security.

Indeed, it has been recycled into a "binational" state with a "right of return" to follow. hehe

East Jeruselum - Israel demands as it's own in entirety cleansed of a substantial portion of it's original inhabitants who are simultaneously attempting to cleanse Jewish incomers from it. Quite a mess. But, of course the "politically correct" folks (like you who pretend Israel is just a misunderstood innocent in this) claim it belongs entirely to Israel. It may end up that way but it is by no means settled nor "rightfully" Israel's.

Jerusalem has been annexed. And that's it.

As far as the Jews abandoning areas that aren't rightfully theirs - what's wrong with that?

Really?! Then Europe must be running redrawing its borders to reflect their pre-war status. hehe

Seriously - they are acting like Russia barging around in the Ukraine and annexing territories under false pretenses then proclaiming themselves to be the victims.

Oh, bog off. The Crimea has never been ukrainian in the first place. The US-engineered coup threatened the future of the russian Black Sea naval base, and Russia took the Crimea back.

The settlements are illegal and those territories do not (yet) belong to Israel. And what's the solution? Remove all the Palestinians.

Indeed, and since they've built nothing of notice so far, they've got nothing to lose too.

 

[Mindful]

OP-ED
Now I understand how and why the Palestinians lost Palestine

The Hamas deputy foreign minister has published a scathing broadside, slamming the Palestinian leadership for failing to craft a strategic vision and build national consensus. Here it is translated in full from the original Arabic

BY GHAZI HAMAD January 2, 2015, 11:53


Read more:Now I understand how and why the Palestinians lost Palestine | The Times of IsraelNow I understand how and why the Palestinians lost Palestine The Times of Israel

 

[aris2chat]

What does being nuclear have to do with anything ?? Pakistan is nuclear and the Taliban attack there constantly.

Israel will never give up East Jerusalem. Never. Ever. Never. Ever. Get that through your thick skull

Can't give up what you don't have.

And Israel does not have East Jerusalem.

you mean the palestinians don't have east Jerusalem. Israel has had it since '67.
Israel will not let it be divided ever again. They will not let the jews be denied access to the western wall to pray.

 

[Coyote]

yayayaya...I know what you're solution is Kondor and you know what I think of it

You can think of it what you will.

A one-state solution is not viable.

A two-state solution is not viable.

The situation will remain in stasis until Israel decides that there is more danger in leaving the Palestinians in-place than there is in expelling them.

And then things will happen at the speed of light.

So quickly that outside intervention will be impossible.

The mark of high-quality tactical planning and logistics.

Two aspects of military operations that the Israelis positively excel at.

What you or I think of it matters very little, once the shit hits the fan.

The only that would work for that many millions of people would be genocide or concentration camps or for Israel to give the land with it's people to Egypt and Jordan to sort out. I doubt they or other states would be able to take that many people in without severe disruption on a scale that would rival Syria's refugee crisis. They have enough of their own problems to sort out I think it's a nice fantasy but the fall out would destroy Israel and put it on par with NK, Iran, etc.

 

[Coyote]

funny, is the reality of intent of driving jews out as entertaining as my "fantasy"? heh

That is no more an acceptable solution than ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.

Why, but it is perfectly acceptable! Jews, being the politically incorrect community, "must" abandon the eastern Jerusalem, jews "must" abandon judea and samaria, jews "must accept" the "right of return" that will drive jews out, in short, imagined peace and quiet for Europe and others "must" be bought and paid for in jews.

You must be confused.

Nah.

Jews are clearly the "politically correct" community as I'm sure you are aware.

Nah, no aware.

Just look at the posts in these boards, they are overwelmingly pro-Jewish/pro-Israeli. So let's stop pretending it's poor little Israel vs the big bad world that wants to eliminate them.

Cool! So, not everyone is a common core product!

Israel "must accept" the right of return? No. That is not a widely supported position in the international community. Most people realize that would be demographic suicide and that any viable solution to the conflict must recognize Israel's need for security.

Indeed, it has been recycled into a "binational" state with a "right of return" to follow. hehe

East Jeruselum - Israel demands as it's own in entirety cleansed of a substantial portion of it's original inhabitants who are simultaneously attempting to cleanse Jewish incomers from it. Quite a mess. But, of course the "politically correct" folks (like you who pretend Israel is just a misunderstood innocent in this) claim it belongs entirely to Israel. It may end up that way but it is by no means settled nor "rightfully" Israel's.

Jerusalem has been annexed. And that's it.

As far as the Jews abandoning areas that aren't rightfully theirs - what's wrong with that?

Really?! Then Europe must be running redrawing its borders to reflect their pre-war status. hehe

Seriously - they are acting like Russia barging around in the Ukraine and annexing territories under false pretenses then proclaiming themselves to be the victims.

Oh, bog off. The Crimea has never been ukrainian in the first place. The US-engineered coup threatened the future of the russian Black Sea naval base, and Russia took the Crimea back.

The settlements are illegal and those territories do not (yet) belong to Israel. And what's the solution? Remove all the Palestinians.

Indeed, and since they've built nothing of notice so far, they've got nothing to lose too.

Drivel.

 

[Phoenall]

yayayaya...I know what you're solution is Kondor and you know what I think of it

You can think of it what you will.

A one-state solution is not viable.

A two-state solution is not viable.

The situation will remain in stasis until Israel decides that there is more danger in leaving the Palestinians in-place than there is in expelling them.

And then things will happen at the speed of light.

So quickly that outside intervention will be impossible.

The mark of high-quality tactical planning and logistics.

Two aspects of military operations that the Israelis positively excel at.

What you or I think of it matters very little, once the shit hits the fan.

The only that would work for that many millions of people would be genocide or concentration camps or for Israel to give the land with it's people to Egypt and Jordan to sort out. I doubt they or other states would be able to take that many people in without severe disruption on a scale that would rival Syria's refugee crisis. They have enough of their own problems to sort out I think it's a nice fantasy but the fall out would destroy Israel and put it on par with NK, Iran, etc.

Meaning less anti Israel resolutions from the UN, less terrorist attacks, less fear of being killed. See the way it is going, and would Israel care any more that Iran of N.K. ?

 

[Coyote]

yayayaya...I know what you're solution is Kondor and you know what I think of it

You can think of it what you will.

A one-state solution is not viable.

A two-state solution is not viable.

The situation will remain in stasis until Israel decides that there is more danger in leaving the Palestinians in-place than there is in expelling them.

And then things will happen at the speed of light.

So quickly that outside intervention will be impossible.

The mark of high-quality tactical planning and logistics.

Two aspects of military operations that the Israelis positively excel at.

What you or I think of it matters very little, once the shit hits the fan.

The only that would work for that many millions of people would be genocide or concentration camps or for Israel to give the land with it's people to Egypt and Jordan to sort out. I doubt they or other states would be able to take that many people in without severe disruption on a scale that would rival Syria's refugee crisis. They have enough of their own problems to sort out I think it's a nice fantasy but the fall out would destroy Israel and put it on par with NK, Iran, etc.

Meaning less anti Israel resolutions from the UN, less terrorist attacks, less fear of being killed. See the way it is going, and would Israel care any more that Iran of N.K. ?

NK is run by a spoiled child madman...so...hard to know what would make them care, however Iran and more recently Russia are suffering under sanctions as a result of their bad behavior.

 

[Kondor3]

...The only that would work for that many millions of people would be genocide or concentration camps or for Israel to give the land with it's people to Egypt and Jordan to sort out...

If it happens, Coyote, Gaza will go first, and it will probably unfold something like this...

1. The Israelis will serve-up logistics support and cash incentives to relocate as many people as are willing to go peaceably, and the IDF will protect them while they are packing up and leaving.

2. For those that have chosen to remain behind, the Israelis will announce (with 24 or 48 or 72 hours advance notice, to give folks a chance to change their minds and leave) a rolling bombardment, north to south, completely leveling all structures as they go, and utilizing mechanized infantry to mop-up as they drive towards the southern border of Gaza.

3. Designated escape corridors will be established through which Gazans may run to the relative safety of the Israelis waiting to process them as involuntary "expelees" - although they may get less in the way of wergeld and logistics support than those more intelligent folk who left earlier.

4. Remaining militants scurrying about the rubble would be exterminated as enemy combatants, after being given a chance to surrender.

5. After that, it's the problem of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, the Arab League, the UN, whatever... hell, the US would probably chip-in to help with the relocation, along with the rest of the world, and I'd certainly support some of our tax money going to those relocated Palestinian folk.

...I doubt they or other states would be able to take that many people in without severe disruption on a scale that would rival Syria's refugee crisis. They have enough of their own problems to sort out ..

Money fixes everything.

Throw enough money at the problem and the Palestinians are suddenly living amidst quarters and neighborhoods that are luxurious by comparison; sustainable, with a future.

...I think it's a nice fantasy but the fall out would destroy Israel and put it on par with NK, Iran, etc.

Neither a one-state nor two-state solution seem viable any longer.

That leaves Death or Departure, for one side or the other.

Departure is always preferable.

The rest is detail.

If and when the time comes, it will happen so quickly that the world will not have time to do much more than cry-out in alarm and wag its finger and posture and make empty threats.

Then it will be all over, peace and quiet will settle over the region, and, after a few years of ineffective sanctions and wrist slapping, it will be back to business as usual.

The Palestinians will have been rescued - although not in the way many folks would expect - and will be growing fat and happy, elsewhere, with new lives, and new futures.

The Israelis will have all they ever set out to attain, and will not make any trouble beyond the borders of newly-reconquered Eretz Yisrael.

If neither a one nor two-state solution is viable any longer, then this is the last stop before a general slaughtering of the Palestinians.

So long as the Israelis do not engage in such a general slaughter - and relocate their adversaries rather than killing them - chances are, they'll get away with it.

But timing is everything... and the Israelis probably believe that there is still time, before they have to resort to such Draconian (but nearly inevitable) measures.

Or so it seems to this observer.

 

[Coyote]

...The only that would work for that many millions of people would be genocide or concentration camps or for Israel to give the land with it's people to Egypt and Jordan to sort out...

If it happens, Coyote, Gaza will go first, and it will probably unfold something like this...

1. The Israelis will serve-up logistics support and cash incentives to relocate as many people as are willing to go peaceably, and the IDF will protect them while they are packing up and leaving.

2. For those that have chosen to remain behind, the Israelis will announce (with 24 or 48 or 72 hours advance notice, to give folks a chance to change their minds and leave) a rolling bombardment, north to south, completely leveling all structures as they go, and utilizing mechanized infantry to mop-up as they drive towards the southern border of Gaza.

3. Designated escape corridors will be established through which Gazans may run to the relative safety of the Israelis waiting to process them as involuntary "expelees" - although they may get less in the way of wergeld and logistics support than those more intelligent folk who left earlier.

4. Remaining militants scurrying about the rubble would be exterminated as enemy combatants, after being given a chance to surrender.

5. After that, it's the problem of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, the Arab League, the UN, whatever... hell, the US would probably chip-in to help with the relocation, along with the rest of the world, and I'd certainly support some of our tax money going to those relocated Palestinian folk.

...I doubt they or other states would be able to take that many people in without severe disruption on a scale that would rival Syria's refugee crisis. They have enough of their own problems to sort out ..

Money fixes everything.

Throw enough money at the problem and the Palestinians are suddenly living amidst quarters and neighborhoods that are luxurious by comparison; sustainable, with a future.

...I think it's a nice fantasy but the fall out would destroy Israel and put it on par with NK, Iran, etc.

Neither a one-state nor two-state solution seem viable any longer.

That leaves Death or Departure, for one side or the other.

Departure is always preferable.

The rest is detail.

If and when the time comes, it will happen so quickly that the world will not have time to do much more than cry-out in alarm and wag its finger and posture and make empty threats.

Then it will be all over, peace and quiet will settle over the region, and, after a few years of ineffective sanctions and wrist slapping, it will be back to business as usual.

The Palestinians will have been rescued - although not in the way many folks would expect - and will be growing fat and happy, elsewhere, with new lives, and new futures.

The Israelis will have all they ever set out to attain, and will not make any trouble beyond the borders of newly-reconquered Eretz Yisrael.

If neither a one nor two-state solution is viable any longer, then this is the last stop before a general slaughtering of the Palestinians.

So long as the Israelis do not engage in such a general slaughter - and relocate their adversaries rather than killing them - chances are, they'll get away with it.

But timing is everything... and the Israelis probably believe that there is still time, before they have to resort to such Draconian (but nearly inevitable) measures.

Or so it seems to this observer.

I don't think that will ever happen because Israeli's aren't monsters - they are human beings with diverse opinions but few have any desire to engage in mass murder or support it. When you start deliberately killing children like that, people will revolt. But I kind of think you're talking facetiously....

 

[Kondor3]

...I don't think that will ever happen because Israeli's aren't monsters...

I, too, find myself wondering whether it will ever happen, but I see it as far more likely to materialize than many would be comfortable with.

It's a matter of cold, hard logic.

...they are human beings...

They are human beings, faced with the impossible dilemma of other human beings, devoted to their destruction, living alongside them, and threatening their extinction.

I would never move to drive you out of my neighborhood simply because you look or think or believe differently than I do.

But if you make it known that your main goal in life is to kill me and my family, and if I can't talk you out of your madness, I'm either going to destroy you or remove you.

Removing you is a far more palatable solution.

...with diverse opinions but few have any desire to engage in mass murder or support it...

Mass Expulsion is not Mass Murder.

...When you start deliberately killing children like that, people will revolt...

Relocating children is not the same as killing children.

Then again, if you force me to choose between the lives of your children and mine... I choose mine.

...But I kind of think you're talking facetiously...

Yes and No, but - I show you the future - The Grand Expulsion - much along the lines of the English or Spanish Edicts of Expulsion - if the Palestinians aren't very careful.

 

[skye]

Until the Palestinians are prepared to moderate their current position, there will never be a two State solution!

Don't forget that on three occasions the Palestinians walked away when they were offered 95% of their demands.

The problem is that despite all the bravado both Fatah and Hamas have the same charter and ideology and that is the obliteration of the State of Israel which must become a purely Arab Palestinian State.

So ...what is the point of speculating about two States when the reality is the Palestinians want only one State, which is their State.

 

[Billo_Really]

you mean the palestinians don't have east Jerusalem. Israel has had it since '67.
Israel will not let it be divided ever again. They will not let the jews be denied access to the western wall to pray.

The world didn't let Germany annex Poland and it won't allow you to annex East Jerusalem.