Can There Be Democracy Under Islam?

[Charles Stucker]

Yes, Switzerland has a "long democratic tradition?" REALLY??!!!

Since 1848.

Apparently your definition of "long" and my own are a tad different.

Do you know ANY history?
Swiss cantons formed a confederacy in the 13th century, which is a bit prior to the Ottoman empire's 15th century conquest of Constantinople. Learn a little before posting more "go go Islam" unfacts.

Why not compare a chicken with a walrus, and show everyone how bright you are after concluding they are different animals, moron.

You were the one to talk about how peaceful the Ottoman's were and how no democracy had lasted as long. When someone makes a sweeping generalization they really deserve to get slapped down.
To be perfectly clear;
Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

 

[geauxtohell]

Let me fill in some of your history-lacunae, so that you may actually have the perspective necessary to read, and to consider a new viewpoint.

Going back to the seminal work of Tocqueville, the traditional view of Islamic countries was that they could never embrace democracy, as their law book and religious text are one in the same.

Pick up a copy of 'Democracy in America.' Most educated folks have read it.

Ah, it wouldn't be a conversation with you without your belief that you are the only educated person in the room.

The speech by Professor Lewis gives the counter to that argument.

You, on the other hand, are clearly out of your depth in any discussion whose preeminent concept isn't 'why Bush was wrong.'

Are you trying to tell me that Iraq is not germane to this issue? The professor seems to disagree with you, since he frequently referenced Iraq in his article.

Let's see:

Iraq is Islamic, yes?
We went there to spread democracy (after the mission was revised), yes?
American lives and resources have been dumped into this issue, yes?

I see Iraq as being very relevant to this issue.

I have stated my opinion on the manner.

Furthermore, since the professor ends with this statement (which I am surprised no one has commented on:

I think that the effort is difficult and the outcome uncertain, but I think the effort must be made. Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.”

Essentially, the professor buys into this nonsense of spreading democracy at the barrel of a gun as the only means to preserve ourselves.

That's absurd. Although it's not surprising since such idiotic theories had previously been perpetuated by pointy-nosed academics who had never carried a rifle in the combat zone and had no ability to realize that their goofy hypothesis could never mesh with the reality of the situation.

So again, this is very much about Iraq.

I give you credit for thinking we can spread democracy there. If you had said otherwise, I'd be scratching my head.

 

[Sunni Man]

Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Christianity is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

 

[geauxtohell]

Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Christianity is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

I don't agree with a lot of the things you say, but I agree with that.

It seems that all the Abrahamic religions have "evolved"(for a lack of a better term) from brutality to more peaceful existance.

As the youngest Abrahamic religion, I see Islam as going through the violent inner struggles that defined Christianity during the dark ages and into the reformation.

 

[José]

A better question would be:

Can political systems based on religious superstition survive IN LONG TERM the exponential growth of the technological, scientific civilization human beings are developing as we speak?

Definitely not.

Islamic theocracies have an unavoidable appointment with the dustbin of History just like Christian, Jewish and Buddhist theocracies before them.

 

[Samson]

Do you know ANY history?
Swiss cantons formed a confederacy in the 13th century, which is a bit prior to the Ottoman empire's 15th century conquest of Constantinople. Learn a little before posting more "go go Islam" unfacts.

Why not compare a chicken with a walrus, and show everyone how bright you are after concluding they are different animals, moron.

You were the one to talk about how peaceful the Ottoman's were and how no democracy had lasted as long. When someone makes a sweeping generalization they really deserve to get slapped down.
To be perfectly clear;
Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Idiot, you couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

I never said the Ottoman Empire was peaceful.

And you really need to stretch to appear ridiculous if your only comprarable "democracies" are Switzerland (which had no constitution until 1847) and Iceland.

Now, you may continue to drool over discovering the obvious difference between Switzerland and the Ottoman Empire. After that, find something shiny to play with: you'll appear less ignorant.

I assume no one lets you have sharp objects.

 

[antagon]

samson!!! you couldnt see the value of democracies on their principles without historical demonstration?

you could say horse drawn carriages hold merit over cars with your logic.

 

[Samson]

samson!!! you couldnt see the value of democracies on their principles without historical demonstration?

you could say horse drawn carriages hold merit over cars with your logic.

Exactly: And thank you for the analogy.

Horse drawn carriages hold a tremendous merit over automobiles for people that have no interest in going faster than 5 mph.

 

[antagon]

i like your style.

 

[rdean]

Not just Islam. This country is NOT a democracy UNDER Christianity. Could you imagine how terrible this country would be if the Christians were in charge without laws to protect us from the followers of Jesus? And the blood? You're soaking in it.

 

[manifold]

What a silly question.

Of course there cannot be democracy under islam. There cannot be democracy under any religion. For it to be democracy, it needs to be above all religions.

I thought this was common knowledge. Must be the shitty school systems.

 

[antagon]

i think you could pick leaders in a theocracy, no problem. it could still be democracy whether you held it over or under any principle.

democracy is held below representatation in the US, such that majority gives way somewhat to plurality. it is subject to law and process. islam has all that law and process built into it, maybe out of a long history of functioning as a basis for societal control. that democracy is subject to that is perhaps an impediment, from an occidental perspective, but still democracy.

 

[B L Zeebub]

Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Christianity is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

all religions are a mind warping load of old bollocks.

 

[José]

Originally posted by rdean
Not just Islam. This country is NOT a democracy UNDER Christianity. Could you imagine how terrible this country would be if the Christians were in charge without laws to protect us from the followers of Jesus? And the blood? You're soaking in it.

Originally posted by manifold
What a silly question.

Of course there cannot be democracy under islam. There cannot be democracy under any religion. For it to be democracy, it needs to be above all religions.

I thought this was common knowledge. Must be the shitty school systems.

Rdean and manifold are absolutely right.

Democracy is not only about the will of the majority (periodic free elections, universal suffrage, etc...) It's also about the protection of minorities.

Theocracies are totalitarian political systems in which part of the population imposes religious rules of personal conduct and state management on the whole population, regardless of the personal beliefs of individual citizens.

And believe me, there are shiites, secularists, non-muslims/nominal muslims even in Saudi Arabia. These individuals are the victims of a totalitarian political ideology that disrespects their personal religious convictions and therefore perpetrates an act of state violence on these tax paying citizens by imposing religion based laws they do not wish to observe. They are one of the reasons theocratic governments cannot be defined as democracies by any stretch of the imagination.

A "democratic theocracy" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

Theocracy is just a fancy name political scientists created to designate religious dictatorships.

 

[mudwhistle]

Islam is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Christianity is a religion which has a long brutal past which includes massacres of anyone who does not worship their religion. Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron.

Islam has a similar history. Seems Christianity and Islam have plenty in common.

Problem being most of that history you speak of is a form of Christianity that surfaced in Italy....not the United States. Our brand of Christianity has few ties to that church. They couldn't be more different. The differences between Roman Catholics and Baptists is pretty obvious. They have even less in common then Wahhabis and average Muslims have.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The history of the Baptists does not begin in America, but rather in Europe. The rise of the American Baptists in America to prominence only begins after 1800 during the Second Great Awakening. Here is a decent website for Baptist history. Baptist History

 

[mudwhistle]

The history of the Baptists does not begin in America, but rather in Europe. The rise of the American Baptists in America to prominence only begins after 1800 during the Second Great Awakening. Here is a decent website for Baptist history. Baptist History

Wonderful...thanks for the history lesson. Europe seems to be guilty of alot of past evils.

Any criminal religious activity seems to have originated from outside the US.

Thanks for providing the incite.

I'm still waiting to hear about the Baptists running amok cutting off heads and subjugating entire regions.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well, they do seem to distribute fruit cake at Christmas. Does that count?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The history of the Baptists does not begin in America, but rather in Europe. The rise of the American Baptists in America to prominence only begins after 1800 during the Second Great Awakening. Here is a decent website for Baptist history. Baptist History

Wonderful...thanks for the history lesson. Europe seems to be guilty of alot of past evils.

Any criminal religious activity seems to have originated from outside the US.

Thanks for providing the incite.

I'm still waiting to hear about the Baptists running amok cutting off heads and subjugating

Christians (including Baptists) slaughtered up to 90% of America's indigenous population. I am quite sure that Baptists were well represented in the history of lynching in the South after the Civil War. If I remember right, the Southern Baptists opposed emancipation and even discussion about the morality of slavery.

I am glad that you appreciate learning history, 'whistle.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It seems that no one has clean hands.

Well maybe the Wiccans. Have they ever attacked anyone?