Can There Be Democracy Under Islam?

[Baruch Menachem]

I forgot Tunisia..

As a general rule in Muslim countries, the more secular the state, the better the democracy there. Turkey is a pretty good example. Not a great example, the military comes in and knocks the politicians heads together on a regular basis, but Turkey does as well as most of South America.

 

[Samson]

Did you just ask me to document what you just varified? "Don't get me wrong: this might be true...."

I'm wondering if you are claiming that the 500 or so years was one of peace and comity, and that being a non-Muslim subject of the empire was entirely copacetic.

I'm simply saying there is not yet enough data to say whether or not democracies do or do not wage war upon each other.

I am claiming that the Ottoman Empire was relatively peaceful, both internally and externally: certainly there was nothing within its history to come close to the remarkable violence associated with the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, or the American "Civil" War.

In addition, being a non-Muslim subject of the Ottoman Empire was certainly more copacetic than being a Negro in the USA, or an European Jew.

Once again, the Lewis speech merely indicates that there are aspects of democracy in Islamic history,

Your gripe?

My point is that Lewis' opinion is entirely irrelevant.

There are "aspects of democracy" in the history of every culture on earth.

The modern concept of democracy (as it is practiced in GB and its former colonies) really has no "history." Therefore, my good woman, the comparison between it and Islamic history is a little silly.

 

[Kalam]

"...is of no real concern to us..." Interesting that you think that you represent the view of all Muslims, while it is diaphanously clear that you represent the view that have resulted in this fact:

"the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year” World Press.
A Note on Arabic Literacy and Translation

And? A millennium after Ma'mun's tenure as khalifah leaves us somewhere in the 19th century; Arab scholasticism hardly flourished under Ottoman rule. Moreover, Arabic is merely a liturgical language for the majority of Muslims, who are able to read works in their native tongue. This analysis also fails to take into account the number of Arabs who have mastery over a foreign language.

While I fully expected the "Ouch, your stepping on our (religious) toes" screetching, I am hoping that the speech will engender a more intellectual breed of poster.

If you're interested in attracting "intellectuals", I'd recommend attempting to avoid spelling and usage errors in your insults.

Thanks for dropping by, though.

It's always a pleasure.

 

[Kalam]

Bernard Lewis is one of the greatest scholars of Arabs and Islam on the planet. Your criticisms are indicative merely that he doesn't toe the party line.

Erm, no. Yusuf Qaradawi is a great scholar of Islam; Mohammed al-Ghazali and Mohammed Iqbal were great scholars of Islam. A person cannot understand Islam or be a "great scholar" of the religion unless they are a Muslim. Lewis is an orientalist. He's about a century too late.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Cant question this

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wajiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…

If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…

They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood.

He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Legal war (jihad) is an obligatory social duty (fard-kifaya); when one group of Moslems guarantees that it is being carried out in a satisfactory manner, the others are exempted.

The jihad becomes a strictly binding personal duty (fard-‘ain) for all Moslems who are enlisted or whose country has been [invaded] by the enemy.

It is obligatory only for free men who have reached puberty, are endowed with reason and capable of fighting. Jihad is the best of the works of supererogation.

Abu Huraira relates that “The Prophet, when asked what was the best of all works, replied: Belief in God [and in His Prophet].– And then? someone asked him. – War for God’s cause, then a pious pilgrimage.” Abu Sa’id reports also that the Prophet, when asked who was the best of all men, replied, “He who fights for God’s cause, personally and with his goods.”…

It is permitted to surprise the infidels under cover of night, to bombard them with mangonels [an engine that hurls missiles] and to attack them without declaring battle (du‘a&#8217. The Prophet attacked the Banu Mustaliq unexpectedly, while their animals were still at the watering-place; he killed the men who had fought against him and carried off the children into captivity. It is forbidden to kill children, madmen, women, priests, impotent old men, the infirm, the blind, the weak-minded, unless they have taken part in the combat.
The chief of State decides on the fate of the men who are taken as prisoners; he can have them put to death, reduce them to slavery, free them in return for a ransom or grant them their freedom as a gift. He must choose the solution most in keeping with the common good of the Moslems.


The jizya can be demanded only from the Peoples of the Book (Ahl-al-Kitab) and from Zoroastrians (Magus), who pledge to pay it and submit to the laws of the community. The Peoples of the Book are understood to mean the Jews and those who follow the religion of the Torah, as well as the Christians and those who follow the religion of the Gospel. When People of the Book or Zoroastrians ask to pay the jizya and to submit to the laws of the community, one must grant their request, and it is forbidden to fight them.

The jizya is collected at the beginning of each year. It is set at 48 dirhems for a rich man, at 24 dirhems for a man of moderate means, and at 12 dirhems for a man of lowly estate. It cannot be demanded from children who have not reached the age of puberty, from women, helpless old men, the sick, the blind, or slaves, nor from poor people who are unable to pay it. An infidel subject to the jizya who converts to Islam is free of this obligation. When an infidel dies, his heirs are responsible for the jizya

 

[Kalam]

C
Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim

Wrong person, dipstick.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Right enough

Al-Ghazali
First published Tue Aug 14, 2007
Al-Ghazâlî (c.1055–1111) was one of the most prominent and influential philosophers, theologians, jurists, and mystics of Sunni Islam.

Al-Ghazali (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

JUst dismiss him as an orientalist.

 

[Kalam]

Right enough

Al-Ghazali
First published Tue Aug 14, 2007
Al-Ghazâlî (c.1055–1111) was one of the most prominent and influential philosophers, theologians, jurists, and mystics of Sunni Islam.

Al-Ghazali (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

JUst dismiss him as an orientalist.

I think you've embarrassed yourself enough for one thread. No need to make it worse by pretending as if 11th-century juristic rulings bear any relevance to Islam today.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Islam has been perfected under mohammad there is no reason for it to change from his murderous raids then, to the terrorism of today, only technology has changed, not Islam.

 

[Kalam]

Islam has been perfected under mohammad there is no reason for it to change from his murderous raids then, to the terrorism of today, only technology has changed, not Islam.

Indeed. Killing oppressors has always been honorable -- some things never change.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Islam has been perfected under mohammad there is no reason for it to change from his murderous raids then, to the terrorism of today, only technology has changed, not Islam.

Indeed. Killing oppressors has always been honorable -- some things never change.

Yeah gotta stop that oppression

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wajiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…

If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]…

They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood.

He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Legal war (jihad) is an obligatory social duty (fard-kifaya); when one group of Moslems guarantees that it is being carried out in a satisfactory manner, the others are exempted.

The jihad becomes a strictly binding personal duty (fard-‘ain) for all Moslems who are enlisted or whose country has been [invaded] by the enemy.

It is obligatory only for free men who have reached puberty, are endowed with reason and capable of fighting. Jihad is the best of the works of supererogation.

Abu Huraira relates that “The Prophet, when asked what was the best of all works, replied: Belief in God [and in His Prophet].– And then? someone asked him. – War for God’s cause, then a pious pilgrimage.” Abu Sa’id reports also that the Prophet, when asked who was the best of all men, replied, “He who fights for God’s cause, personally and with his goods.”…

It is permitted to surprise the infidels under cover of night, to bombard them with mangonels [an engine that hurls missiles] and to attack them without declaring battle (du‘a’). The Prophet attacked the Banu Mustaliq unexpectedly, while their animals were still at the watering-place; he killed the men who had fought against him and carried off the children into captivity. It is forbidden to kill children, madmen, women, priests, impotent old men, the infirm, the blind, the weak-minded, unless they have taken part in the combat.
The chief of State decides on the fate of the men who are taken as prisoners; he can have them put to death, reduce them to slavery, free them in return for a ransom or grant them their freedom as a gift. He must choose the solution most in keeping with the common good of the Moslems.


The jizya can be demanded only from the Peoples of the Book (Ahl-al-Kitab) and from Zoroastrians (Magus), who pledge to pay it and submit to the laws of the community. The Peoples of the Book are understood to mean the Jews and those who follow the religion of the Torah, as well as the Christians and those who follow the religion of the Gospel. When People of the Book or Zoroastrians ask to pay the jizya and to submit to the laws of the community, one must grant their request, and it is forbidden to fight them.

The jizya is collected at the beginning of each year. It is set at 48 dirhems for a rich man, at 24 dirhems for a man of moderate means, and at 12 dirhems for a man of lowly estate. It cannot be demanded from children who have not reached the age of puberty, from women, helpless old men, the sick, the blind, or slaves, nor from poor people who are unable to pay it. An infidel subject to the jizya who converts to Islam is free of this obligation. When an infidel dies, his heirs are responsible for the jizya
__________________
Please be warned that all website that hold or offer an opinion that "differs from the image of Islam that most liberals and muslims wish to create" are unreliable hate sites.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Islam has been perfected under mohammad there is no reason for it to change from his murderous raids then, to the terrorism of today, only technology has changed, not Islam.

Indeed. Killing oppressors has always been honorable -- some things never change.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193)

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in this verse.
In the Arabic the word is Zâlimûn
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors in 2:193 and 2:254

Quraan Transliteration

That means disbelief is oppresion

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You can do you name calling and smiley posting without my help .
We're done here.

 

[B L Zeebub]

You can do you name calling and smiley posting without my help ..

well Mr.Titnah you should get some help with your Red blobs, I love them and the little messages are to amusing.

Keep it up please

 

[B L Zeebub]

C
Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim

Wrong person, dipstick.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There certainly can be democracy under amn Islamic government.

You just have to vote the way the mullahs tell you or else.

 

[Sunni Man]

There certainly can be democracy under amn Islamic government.

You just have to vote the way the mullahs tell you or else.

FYI

Mullah is the name of a Shi'ite cleric.

Iran is the only Shi'ite government in the world and is ruled by Mullahs.

All other muslims nations have Sunni governments. And are not ruled by Mullahs.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There certainly can be democracy under amn Islamic government.

You just have to vote the way the mullahs tell you or else.

FYI

Mullah is the name of a Shi'ite cleric.

Iran is the only Shi'ite government in the world and is ruled by Mullahs.

All other muslims nations have Sunni governments. And are not ruled by Mullahs.

Guess what.

I don't give a fuck about Muslims or Islam

Islamic governments or any other theocracy for that matter and democracy can only coexist as long as the people kowtow to the government and therefore a set of religious tenets.

Religion is not about freedom it is about control and Islam IMO is one of the most controlling religions.

 

[Sunni Man]

There certainly can be democracy under amn Islamic government.

You just have to vote the way the mullahs tell you or else.

FYI

Mullah is the name of a Shi'ite cleric.

Iran is the only Shi'ite government in the world and is ruled by Mullahs.

All other muslims nations have Sunni governments. And are not ruled by Mullahs.

Guess what.

I don't give a fuck about Muslims or Islam

Then why are you posting on this thread??

LOL!!! you just hated that your ignorance was showing and you got called on it

 

[Skull Pilot]

FYI

Mullah is the name of a Shi'ite cleric.

Iran is the only Shi'ite government in the world and is ruled by Mullahs.

All other muslims nations have Sunni governments. And are not ruled by Mullahs.

Guess what.

I don't give a fuck about Muslims or Islam

Then why are you posting on this thread??

LOL!!! you just hated that your ignorance was showing and you got called on it

Mullahs are part of an Islamic government in Iran so I am not incorrect in my statement.

And what are Sunni clerics called It is interchangeable with Mullah. It's like arguing over the terms priest and reverend.

There is no real difference