Call Apartheid in Israel by Its Name

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You push this claim quite often.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you look at the agreed upon international boundaries, there was no independently recognized State of Palestine to be considered.

• use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect.
​

​

The armistice line specified that Jordanian and Israeli forces cannot cross.

Where do Palestinians fit in here?

(COMMENT)

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake. You will notice that in Article 3 - International Boundary, of the Treaty of Peace 1994, and Annex I (a) Jordan-Israel International Boundary Delimitation And Demarcation, were as: "The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers." as an example. While it is assumed that the Treaty is made without prejudice to the Arab Palestinians, no separate Treaties have ever been established between Israel and the Palestinians. At the time of the 1967 Six Day War, the West Bank was sovereign Jordanian Territory. In 1988, Jordan took independent and unilateral action when it abandon (terra nullius means "land belonging to nobody.") the West Bank. Israel had sole effective control on 1 August, 1988 when the Jordanian Government "disengaged from the West Bank." (" Finally, on July 31 King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.')

At that time, no other country either demanded or maintained effective control of the West Bank. The idea that the West Bank or the Gaza Strip were "taken from the Arab Palestinians" is 100% erroneous. The Israeli's occupied that land for 20 years + before the Arab Palestinians attempted "self-determination in creating a near failed state (a political entity that has deteriorated to the point where basic responsibilities of a sovereign government are no longer functioning properly).

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake.​

Note: Palestine did have a government during the armistice agreements but it was not a party to the 1948 war.

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the
Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to
self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty without outside interference;\

A/RES/37/43. Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights​

Where do you get that the Palestinians have no territory?

Link?

(COMMENT)

First, --- ALL peoples everywhere have the right to self-determination. The right to self-determination does not mean that an opposing force has to hand it to the claimant on a silver platter. All peoples have the right to tangible things, like a million dollars. It doesn't mean that a bank has to give it to them as "unearned income." And All Peoples have the right to be happy. It does not mean that we have to hire a clown for them.

Second, --- the right to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty, applies equally to the Jewish People. Just because the Arab Palestinians make a demand, does not mean that the UN Recommendation offered to and accepted by the Jewish People must be void.

Third, --- At the time of the Arab Invasion (15 May 1948) - crossing their individual boundaries into the Successor Government of the UNPC over the territory, there was NO Arab Palestinian Government. The Arab Higher Committee, with no territorial control over anywhere in the Region, acted on behave of the Arab Palestinian. The All Palestine Government was under the protection and control of the Egyptian Occupation Forces in Gaza. The territory of the West Bank was under the control of the Jordanian Occupation. The remainder of the territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, was in Israeli control.

Fourth, --- There are two importance aspects to A/RES/37/43.

• Whatever your interpretation of its meaning, its meaning could not have an effect on event that took place three decades (plus) before the 1982 General Assembly Resolution was created.

According to the Charter of the United Nations, the General Assembly may:

• Consider and approve the United Nations budget and establish the financial assessments of Member States;
• Elect the non-permanent members of the Security Council and the members of other United Nations councils and organs and, on the recommendation of the Security Council, appoint the Secretary-General;
• Consider and make recommendations on the general principles of cooperation for maintaining international peace and security, including disarmament;
• Discuss any question relating to international peace and security and, except where a dispute or situation is currently being discussed by the Security Council, make recommendations on it;
• Discuss, with the same exception, and make recommendations on any questions within the scope of the Charter or affecting the powers and functions of any organ of the United Nations;
• Initiate studies and make recommendations to promote international political cooperation, the development and codification of international law, the realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms, and international collaboration in the economic, social, humanitarian, cultural, educational and health fields;
• Make recommendations for the peaceful settlement of any situation that might impair friendly relations among nations;
• Consider reports from the Security Council and other United Nations organs.

But a Generalized Resolution is not Law; and must go through a specific process.​

• Since when did the General Assembly Resolution on the Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination... December 1982, go into law? That is right, it did not. It is a variation on a theme found in Article I of the UN Charter (self-determination). And that did not specifically apply to the Question of Palestine, in that, the Charter is not clairvoyant --- written by seer who publishing the Charter as a collections of prophecies. No claim was made by any Arab Authority that one of the Allied Powers was acting as a colonial power using the Jewish people as a proxy. And the Jewish Agency, to which the​

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion. The Successor Government to the Mandatory was the UN Palestine Commission. Israel was controlled by Israel. The West Bank was controlled by Jordan; and the Gaza Strip was controlled by the Egyptian Government through the All Palestine Government (established by 22 September 1948 and dissolved in 1959 by the Egyptian Government). The Jewish Agency may have been described as a recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine, it was not a foreign government or Colonial Power within the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion.​

Of course that is a meaningless statement. That is not a requirement for the inalienable rights of a people.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence,​

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

And which treaty is that taken from and in what year was it formulated ? And does it mention Palestine by name as one of those non self governing territories ?


You need to understand that what was expected in 1948 is not the same as what was expected in 1967, or 2015. In other words you cant expect laws drawn up in 2015 to be valid for 1948 without them also being valid for 1750, 1099 or 635.



Yes it is the LoN mandate of Palestine that sets their rights in stone. You are shown this every time you ask the same stupid question as if the wording will somehow change overnight. Then there is the UN charter, or more precisely the section added in 1949

 

[Phoenall]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So produce these multiple UN resolutions that name only the Palestinians as having an inalienable right to self determination

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You push this claim quite often.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you look at the agreed upon international boundaries, there was no independently recognized State of Palestine to be considered.

​

The armistice line specified that Jordanian and Israeli forces cannot cross.

Where do Palestinians fit in here?

(COMMENT)

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake. You will notice that in Article 3 - International Boundary, of the Treaty of Peace 1994, and Annex I (a) Jordan-Israel International Boundary Delimitation And Demarcation, were as: "The boundary Line shall follow the middle of the main course of the flow of the Jordan and Yarmouk Rivers." as an example. While it is assumed that the Treaty is made without prejudice to the Arab Palestinians, no separate Treaties have ever been established between Israel and the Palestinians. At the time of the 1967 Six Day War, the West Bank was sovereign Jordanian Territory. In 1988, Jordan took independent and unilateral action when it abandon (terra nullius means "land belonging to nobody.") the West Bank. Israel had sole effective control on 1 August, 1988 when the Jordanian Government "disengaged from the West Bank." (" Finally, on July 31 King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank.')

At that time, no other country either demanded or maintained effective control of the West Bank. The idea that the West Bank or the Gaza Strip were "taken from the Arab Palestinians" is 100% erroneous. The Israeli's occupied that land for 20 years + before the Arab Palestinians attempted "self-determination in creating a near failed state (a political entity that has deteriorated to the point where basic responsibilities of a sovereign government are no longer functioning properly).

Most Respectfully,
R

Yes, that is interesting. The Arab Palestinians, not being a state or recognized government, were not a party to a conflict and did not have a sovereign territory at stake.​

Note: Palestine did have a government during the armistice agreements but it was not a party to the 1948 war.

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the
Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to
self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty without outside interference;\

A/RES/37/43. Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights​

Where do you get that the Palestinians have no territory?

Link?

(COMMENT)

First, --- ALL peoples everywhere have the right to self-determination. The right to self-determination does not mean that an opposing force has to hand it to the claimant on a silver platter. All peoples have the right to tangible things, like a million dollars. It doesn't mean that a bank has to give it to them as "unearned income." And All Peoples have the right to be happy. It does not mean that we have to hire a clown for them.

Second, --- the right to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national
unity and sovereignty, applies equally to the Jewish People. Just because the Arab Palestinians make a demand, does not mean that the UN Recommendation offered to and accepted by the Jewish People must be void.

Third, --- At the time of the Arab Invasion (15 May 1948) - crossing their individual boundaries into the Successor Government of the UNPC over the territory, there was NO Arab Palestinian Government. The Arab Higher Committee, with no territorial control over anywhere in the Region, acted on behave of the Arab Palestinian. The All Palestine Government was under the protection and control of the Egyptian Occupation Forces in Gaza. The territory of the West Bank was under the control of the Jordanian Occupation. The remainder of the territory, formerly under the Mandate for Palestine, was in Israeli control.

Fourth, --- There are two importance aspects to A/RES/37/43.

• Whatever your interpretation of its meaning, its meaning could not have an effect on event that took place three decades (plus) before the 1982 General Assembly Resolution was created.

According to the Charter of the United Nations, the General Assembly may:

• Consider and approve the United Nations budget and establish the financial assessments of Member States;
• Elect the non-permanent members of the Security Council and the members of other United Nations councils and organs and, on the recommendation of the Security Council, appoint the Secretary-General;
• Consider and make recommendations on the general principles of cooperation for maintaining international peace and security, including disarmament;
• Discuss any question relating to international peace and security and, except where a dispute or situation is currently being discussed by the Security Council, make recommendations on it;
• Discuss, with the same exception, and make recommendations on any questions within the scope of the Charter or affecting the powers and functions of any organ of the United Nations;
• Initiate studies and make recommendations to promote international political cooperation, the development and codification of international law, the realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms, and international collaboration in the economic, social, humanitarian, cultural, educational and health fields;
• Make recommendations for the peaceful settlement of any situation that might impair friendly relations among nations;
• Consider reports from the Security Council and other United Nations organs.

But a Generalized Resolution is not Law; and must go through a specific process.​

• Since when did the General Assembly Resolution on the Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination... December 1982, go into law? That is right, it did not. It is a variation on a theme found in Article I of the UN Charter (self-determination). And that did not specifically apply to the Question of Palestine, in that, the Charter is not clairvoyant --- written by seer who publishing the Charter as a collections of prophecies. No claim was made by any Arab Authority that one of the Allied Powers was acting as a colonial power using the Jewish people as a proxy. And the Jewish Agency, to which the​

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion. The Successor Government to the Mandatory was the UN Palestine Commission. Israel was controlled by Israel. The West Bank was controlled by Jordan; and the Gaza Strip was controlled by the Egyptian Government through the All Palestine Government (established by 22 September 1948 and dissolved in 1959 by the Egyptian Government). The Jewish Agency may have been described as a recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine, it was not a foreign government or Colonial Power within the Allied Powers.

Most Respectfully,
R

Finally, --- The Palestinians had no direct control of any territory in a stand-alone fashion.​

Of course that is a meaningless statement. That is not a requirement for the inalienable rights of a people.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence,​

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

And which treaty is that taken from and in what year was it formulated ? And does it mention Palestine by name as one of those non self governing territories ?


You need to understand that what was expected in 1948 is not the same as what was expected in 1967, or 2015. In other words you cant expect laws drawn up in 2015 to be valid for 1948 without them also being valid for 1750, 1099 or 635.



Yes it is the LoN mandate of Palestine that sets their rights in stone. You are shown this every time you ask the same stupid question as if the wording will somehow change overnight. Then there is the UN charter, or more precisely the section added in 1949

Link posted a couple pages ago.

 

[Shusha]

There is no difference between Jew and Non-Jew in Israel.

Again, pro-Palestinians and their lies.

You want to be recognized as the Jewish State.

You don't get more apartheid than that.

Then wanting to be recognized as a Palestinian State is also apartheid.

 

[Shusha]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

 

[Hollie]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

The above perhaps perfectly defines the debilitating disease of Pal’istanian Mentality™.

It's a condition symptomatic of feeble excuses for a complete lack of ability to take responsibility for the pratfalls, disasters, gaffes and general inability to manage one's affairs.

I'm afraid that the silly BDS’ers have no better plan for managing the civil affairs of government than the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza have. It's both pitiful and a little contemptible that Pali-arabs refuse to hold themselves responsible for their self-created inability to hold to some pretty basic standards of rational behavior. But then, islamist ideology is fully at odds with relevant, first world standards of behavior.

It really is remarkable that with acknowledgement of the billions of dollars of welfare payments that continues the fraud of Pal'istanians, these knuckle-draggers still cannot manage to crawl their way out of the diseased society they have created.

What's infuriating is that the relevant first world continues the charade such that on the one hand, Pal’istanian arab terrorists criticize, condemn and revile the hated Westerners/infidels who shower them with money while on the other hand they continually come begging for more like some underpaid prostitute.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

The above perhaps perfectly defines the debilitating disease of Pal’istanian Mentality™.

It's a condition symptomatic of feeble excuses for a complete lack of ability to take responsibility for the pratfalls, disasters, gaffes and general inability to manage one's affairs.

I'm afraid that the silly BDS’ers have no better plan for managing the civil affairs of government than the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza have. It's both pitiful and a little contemptible that Pali-arabs refuse to hold themselves responsible for their self-created inability to hold to some pretty basic standards of rational behavior. But then, islamist ideology is fully at odds with relevant, first world standards of behavior.

It really is remarkable that with acknowledgement of the billions of dollars of welfare payments that continues the fraud of Pal'istanians, these knuckle-draggers still cannot manage to crawl their way out of the diseased society they have created.

What's infuriating is that the relevant first world continues the charade such that on the one hand, Pal’istanian arab terrorists criticize, condemn and revile the hated Westerners/infidels who shower them with money while on the other hand they continually come begging for more like some underpaid prostitute.

Nice rant!

 

[Hollie]

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

Because they apply to all nations and not just Palestine. So when will the Palestinians take the next baby step to full self determination and become a nation standing on its own two feet ?

They are. Its called BDS.

The above perhaps perfectly defines the debilitating disease of Pal’istanian Mentality™.

It's a condition symptomatic of feeble excuses for a complete lack of ability to take responsibility for the pratfalls, disasters, gaffes and general inability to manage one's affairs.

I'm afraid that the silly BDS’ers have no better plan for managing the civil affairs of government than the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza have. It's both pitiful and a little contemptible that Pali-arabs refuse to hold themselves responsible for their self-created inability to hold to some pretty basic standards of rational behavior. But then, islamist ideology is fully at odds with relevant, first world standards of behavior.

It really is remarkable that with acknowledgement of the billions of dollars of welfare payments that continues the fraud of Pal'istanians, these knuckle-draggers still cannot manage to crawl their way out of the diseased society they have created.

What's infuriating is that the relevant first world continues the charade such that on the one hand, Pal’istanian arab terrorists criticize, condemn and revile the hated Westerners/infidels who shower them with money while on the other hand they continually come begging for more like some underpaid prostitute.

Nice rant!

Nice retreat.

The queue for welfare checks is over there ------->

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

 

[Shusha]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

Yes, yes. Are you going to give me the same bullshit argument Challenger is giving me over on the other thread? The Jewish people are not a people.

Why don't you give me your meaning of "peoples".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you have a document for the right to self determination of the Jews?

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

Yes, yes. Are you going to give me the same bullshit argument Challenger is giving me over on the other thread? The Jewish people are not a people.

Why don't you give me your meaning of "peoples".

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Wait, what?! Aren't you the one who keeps arguing for the inalienable rights to self-determination? Does this not apply to Jews?

There are multiple UN resolutions and other documents expressing the inalienable right of the Palestinian's to self determination.

I haven't seen any for the Jews. That is why I asked.

So the right of self-determination is not an inherent right. Its only a right when it is granted or assigned or conferred upon a group?

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

Yes, yes. Are you going to give me the same bullshit argument Challenger is giving me over on the other thread? The Jewish people are not a people.

Why don't you give me your meaning of "peoples".

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

Having been a country for almost 70 years, the Israelis are a people, distinct from the Jewish religion. Very creative, ambitious, overly educated and intellectual, brash, tough, quick to anger but friendly and hospitable. The society is a cross between Middle Eastern and Western, traditional and modern. Israelis might have started out as just being "Jewish", but now they're a people all their own.

 

[Shusha]

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

No, actually I am quite excited to hear your thoughts. I will very likely disagree with you since your aim seems to be to deny fundamental rights to the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. I have a definition which applies universally and doesn't pick and choose based on who you wish to exclude. Do you?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

No, actually I am quite excited to hear your thoughts. I will very likely disagree with you since your aim seems to be to deny fundamental rights to the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. I have a definition which applies universally and doesn't pick and choose based on who you wish to exclude. Do you?

No you aren't. You will just blow off anything I say. If you figure it out for yourself, you can't blame me for being incorrect.

 

[Kondor3]

Call apartheid in Israel by its name?

Urban beautification.

 

[Billo_Really]

Then wanting to be recognized as a Palestinian State is also apartheid.

Don't change the subject, we're not talking about that.

 

[Shusha]

Then wanting to be recognized as a Palestinian State is also apartheid.

Don't change the subject, we're not talking about that.

Of course we are talking about that. You want to have a special set of rules for Israel and Jews. I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of that attitude.

 

[Shusha]

You wouldn't believe me if I told you. You should figure it out on your own.

No, actually I am quite excited to hear your thoughts. I will very likely disagree with you since your aim seems to be to deny fundamental rights to the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. I have a definition which applies universally and doesn't pick and choose based on who you wish to exclude. Do you?

No you aren't. You will just blow off anything I say. If you figure it out for yourself, you can't blame me for being incorrect.

In other words, you've got nothing. You have no set of criteria for defining a peoples which you can apply universally.

 

[Shusha]

It comes with the territory, literally.

All peoples have the right to self determination.

Define the meaning of peoples.

You have to decide what you are arguing. Are you arguing that people have an inherent right to self-determination? Or are you arguing that self-determination is an outcome of treaties and agreements?