But with the subject of tithing,...

[Abbey Normal]

Luking at the context to Luke 20 I see nothing to suggest that Jesus was talking about this issue:

If the contemporary church does not provide the services that the ancient church used to provide (security, courts, water, sanitation) than the contemporary church should not expect to get paid for those services. In effect we would be paying twice.

What, no education? Or the Aqueduct? :teeth:

 

[flaja]

I believe that tithing is a Biblical concept.

OT only. It is never commanded in the NT.

I believe that a Christian's giving should begin with tithing and go up from there.

If God demands only 10%, what right do you have to demand more? If tithing is an obligation placed on Christians, then 10% is the most a Christian has to give and any preacher who demands more should be sent to Hell.

I believe that a Christian's tithe should go to the church which he attends.

Show me one worthy church. I judge a church on 3 criteria: 1. Does it have sound doctrine? 2. Does it perform a social welfare service of some kind (school, hospital, homeless shelter et cetera)? 3. Is it willing to cooperate with other churches and ministries that meet 1, 2 and 3?

For over a year now I have been trying to find a worthy church or ministry to which I can give a $40,000 inheritance. So far not one single church/ministry has been willing to take the money. Most simply ignore my phone call, email or personal letter. So why should I worry about a measly 10% of this inheritance?

If we got people to tithe fully, we'd be spending about $10 million a year.

How much of this money goes to salaries for your church staff? What kind of car has your church given its pastor to drive? How big a house has your church given your pastor? How many of your pastor’s relatives are on the church’s payroll? How much land does your church own, tax free? Before you start demanding more money from your congregation, you’d better make absolutely certain that you are spending the money you do have according to God’s wishes.

 

[glockmail]

.....
For over a year now I have been trying to find a worthy church or ministry to which I can give a $40,000 inheritance. .....

First you're a renowned biologist, then a Bible scholar, now you've got money you can’t get rid of. Pompous ass.

 

[5stringJeff]

OT only. It is never commanded in the NT.

Just because something is in the OT only doesn't make it invalid. And you'll notice that in my first post (here) that I talked about the precedent being set by Abraham, not Moses.

If God demands only 10%, what right do you have to demand more? If tithing is an obligation placed on Christians, then 10% is the most a Christian has to give and any preacher who demands more should be sent to Hell.

I'm not demanding money out of anyone. I simply stated that I believe that everything we has is a gift from God, and we should be cheerful givers of the resources He has entrusted to us. If that's 10%, that's great. If that's 40%, that's great too. If it's 90% like Rick Warren, that's great too.

Show me one worthy church. I judge a church on 3 criteria: 1. Does it have sound doctrine? 2. Does it perform a social welfare service of some kind (school, hospital, homeless shelter et cetera)? 3. Is it willing to cooperate with other churches and ministries that meet 1, 2 and 3?

For over a year now I have been trying to find a worthy church or ministry to which I can give a $40,000 inheritance. So far not one single church/ministry has been willing to take the money. Most simply ignore my phone call, email or personal letter. So why should I worry about a measly 10% of this inheritance?

Well, I would offer up my church, which fits all three of your criteria, but frankly, your idea of "sound doctrine" or what constitutes a bona fide "social welfare service" may differ from mine, so never mind.

How much of this money goes to salaries for your church staff? What kind of car has your church given its pastor to drive? How big a house has your church given your pastor? How many of your pastor’s relatives are on the church’s payroll? How much land does your church own, tax free? Before you start demanding more money from your congregation, you’d better make absolutely certain that you are spending the money you do have according to God’s wishes.

Thank you for that. I pray almost every time I do church finance work that God would give me wisdom to be a good steward of the church's money. To answer your questions generally, our pastors' salaries are slightly below the national average in an area where cost of living is slightly higher than the national average.

Jeff

 

[flaja]

Originally Posted by flaja
OT only. It is never commanded in the NT.

Just because something is in the OT only doesn't make it invalid.

It doesn’t automatically obligate Christians either.

And you'll notice that in my first post (here) that I talked about the precedent being set by Abraham, not Moses.

Circumcision also began with Abraham and was extended to Mosaic Law, but Christians need not be circumcised according to the Council of Jerusalem.

If God demands only 10%, what right do you have to demand more? If tithing is an obligation placed on Christians, then 10% is the most a Christian has to give and any preacher who demands more should be sent to Hell.

I'm not demanding money out of anyone. I simply stated that I believe that everything we has is a gift from God, and we should be cheerful givers of the resources He has entrusted to us. If that's 10%, that's great. If that's 40%, that's great too. If it's 90% like Rick Warren, that's great too.

If you are not demanding that anyone give God, i.e., your church, money, why did you claim that your church is giving only $2.5M when it is wealthy enough to give $10M. What difference does it make to you if you don’t wish obligate anyone to give money? And just how do you know how much the members of your church are worth? What makes you privy to their bank accounts?

Show me one worthy church. I judge a church on 3 criteria: 1. Does it have sound doctrine? 2. Does it perform a social welfare service of some kind (school, hospital, homeless shelter et cetera)? 3. Is it willing to cooperate with other churches and ministries that meet 1, 2 and 3?

For over a year now I have been trying to find a worthy church or ministry to which I can give a $40,000 inheritance. So far not one single church/ministry has been willing to take the money. Most simply ignore my phone call, email or personal letter. So why should I worry about a measly 10% of this inheritance?

Well, I would offer up my church, which fits all three of your criteria, but frankly, your idea of "sound doctrine" or what constitutes a bona fide "social welfare service" may differ from mine, so never mind.

Then enlighten me. Tell me what you consider to be bona fide social welfare service. And give me your church’s formal articles of faith while you’re at it.

How much of this money goes to salaries for your church staff? What kind of car has your church given its pastor to drive? How big a house has your church given your pastor? How many of your pastor’s relatives are on the church’s payroll? How much land does your church own, tax free? Before you start demanding more money from your congregation, you’d better make absolutely certain that you are spending the money you do have according to God’s wishes.

Thank you for that. I pray almost every time I do church finance work that God would give me wisdom to be a good steward of the church's money.

Who died and left you in charge? What entitles you to make these kinds of decisions?

To answer your questions generally, our pastors' salaries are slightly below the national average in an area where cost of living is slightly higher than the national average.

That’s not likely saying much:

http://www.biblicalrecorder.com/news/9_4_98/baptist.html

Average pastoral salary by denomination in 1997-1998 (including pay, housing and utilities):

Baptist: $67,057
Episcopal: $65,995
Presbyterian: $65,567
Methodist: $64,940
Assemblies of God/Pentecostal (the ones most likely to preach tithing?): $62,343
Disciples of Christ: $53,577
Lutheran: $55,487
Nazarene/Evangelical Free: $54,108
Non-denominational/Independent (the ones most likely to have a my-way or the high-way pastor): $69,570

 

[mattskramer]

Three men of the cloth - a Catholic priest, a Baptist minister and a Rabbi - were counting collections taken during services for the week. They were trying to come up with an equitable way to divide the money between God (the two churches and one synagogue) and themselves (the clerics' weekly income).

The priest was the first to speak: "I know what! I'll draw a line down the
middle of the sanctuary, toss the money up in the air, and whatever falls on
the right side of the line is for God and whatever falls on the left side is
for us."

The Baptist minister cried, "No! No! No! I'll draw a circle in the middle of
the sanctuary, toss the money up in the air, and whatever falls inside the
circle is for God and whatever falls outside the circle is for us."

The Rabbi then asked the two other men to accompany him outside. There he offered this suggestion: "What I would do with the money is this: Toss it up in the air, and whatever God catches is His and whatever falls on the ground is ours."

 

[glockmail]

....
Average pastoral salary by denomination in 1997-1998 (including pay, housing and utilities):

Baptist: $67,057
Episcopal: $65,995
Presbyterian: $65,567
Methodist: $64,940
Assemblies of God/Pentecostal (the ones most likely to preach tithing?): $62,343
Disciples of Christ: $53,577
Lutheran: $55,487
Nazarene/Evangelical Free: $54,108
Non-denominational/Independent (the ones most likely to have a my-way or the high-way pastor): $69,570

I don't see Catholics there. Probably about 1/2 of the others.

 

[glockmail]

Three men of the cloth - a Catholic priest, a Baptist minister and a Rabbi - were counting collections taken during services for the week. They were trying to come up with an equitable way to divide the money between God (the two churches and one synagogue) and themselves (the clerics' weekly income).

The priest was the first to speak: "I know what! I'll draw a line down the
middle of the sanctuary, toss the money up in the air, and whatever falls on
the right side of the line is for God and whatever falls on the left side is
for us."

The Baptist minister cried, "No! No! No! I'll draw a circle in the middle of
the sanctuary, toss the money up in the air, and whatever falls inside the
circle is for God and whatever falls outside the circle is for us."

The Rabbi then asked the two other men to accompany him outside. There he offered this suggestion: "What I would do with the money is this: Toss it up in the air, and whatever God catches is His and whatever falls on the ground is ours."

Good thing Rabbi Schmooley isn't there to smack you!:happy2:

 

[Nienna]

I don't see Catholics there. Probably about 1/2 of the others.

True, priests don't make much. But, we belong to an independent church. My husband is the treasurer. Our pastor makes $275/week, plus a monthly percentage of the surplus after bills are paid. All told, it's less than $1500/mo, or $18K/yr. He has to work as a resource teacher, too, in order to support his family. So, not ALL independent preachers are in it for the money.

 

[flaja]

So, not ALL independent preachers are in it for the money.

But if so much as one is, it is one too many.

 

[mattskramer]

Good thing Rabbi Schmooley isn't there to smack you!:happy2:

I just wanted to add a bit of humor. I hope you don’t consider me to be a bitter argumentative creep. Arguments and debates can get quite heated. Peace.

 

[Eightball]

OT only. It is never commanded in the NT.



If God demands only 10%, what right do you have to demand more? If tithing is an obligation placed on Christians, then 10% is the most a Christian has to give and any preacher who demands more should be sent to Hell.



Show me one worthy church. I judge a church on 3 criteria: 1. Does it have sound doctrine? 2. Does it perform a social welfare service of some kind (school, hospital, homeless shelter et cetera)? 3. Is it willing to cooperate with other churches and ministries that meet 1, 2 and 3?

For over a year now I have been trying to find a worthy church or ministry to which I can give a $40,000 inheritance. So far not one single church/ministry has been willing to take the money. Most simply ignore my phone call, email or personal letter. So why should I worry about a measly 10% of this inheritance?



How much of this money goes to salaries for your church staff? What kind of car has your church given its pastor to drive? How big a house has your church given your pastor? How many of your pastor’s relatives are on the church’s payroll? How much land does your church own, tax free? Before you start demanding more money from your congregation, you’d better make absolutely certain that you are spending the money you do have according to God’s wishes.

You are looking for a church worthy of your presence?

It must meet certain biblical criteria.....?

Take a look at Acts......written by Luke.......The churches were all different......they all had their good points and their weak points.....

Bottom line........the church as Paul described or defined it was like a "living organism".....all of it's members were integral to it's health.......

I come to a church hoping to be "ministered to", yet I do know that as one member of this great body, I also offer "contribution".

Many folks won't enter the doors of a church as they are looking for that "perfect" one. Well keep on looking.....as you won't find it. You may find one that seems to meet your criteria, but the minute you join.......it will change...as you are being "utopian" in your biblical/Christian quest.

A healthy church has spiritually healthy members......Simply that.

As far as outreach socially to the community being a criteria........The healthy church must first take care of it's own.......and when it can do that biblically.....then evangelical outreach to a lost community should be a natural outcome or evolution.

Giving.......give whatever you can as you are motivated in your "heart".........not out of "obligation". If you give money out of obligation because it assuages your Christian or non-Christian conscience.......you are doing it for the wrong motives... God wants a "joyful" giver.

God metaphorically owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills.............He's rich beyond all imagination, as He is the Creator of all things material, and spiritual........

The Old Testament is filled wth do's and don'ts......Man was given the Mosaic Law..........man couldn't meet every "jot" and "tittle" of the Law..........God knew that. The Law is "good", yet it showed man how utterly sinful he was(Romans 4,5,6,7). The Law is intended to drive man to "see" his utter helplessness to fullfill God's demand of Holiness. It also showed man that he was utterly sinful and helpless to help himself because his entire race was corrupted from the it's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandpa Adam.

Whether man be gentile, or Jew......he still fails the "mark". Tithing was good, but just a baseline.

Just remember the Widow's Mite.......the Mite was but a penny or so.........yet Jesus said that this poor Widow's, Mite, was greater than what the rich temple attendee's gave........which was much more than a Mite in monetary value. The Widow gave from sacrifice, and essentially from her heart......the rich man did it out of "show", and possibly, "obligation".

If you can't give to your church without falling short on your family budget......i.e. not making your bills on time...or buy groceries, or suitably clothing yourself and your family..........Then don't give........God wants you to take care of your obligations legally to those that you owe, and also to care for the welfare of your loved ones whom He/God has blessed you with. God doesn't have a note pad keeping track of how much we give.

If a time comes in your life where you start to see a little glimpse of "extra" funds......that won't cause you or your family to sacrifice the essentials of life, then "give", but don't measure it out on a percentage basis.....just pray about it, and give what you think you can, utilizing your God-given reasoning mind.

God wants us to use our "heads"/"minds"/"reasoning"/....

We are not to "test" God by promising money's we don't have.........My church and others do this on a regular basis for Mission's giving........They call it "faith promises". I think that this is really testing God.......at times. I will say however that God does desire to be proven......by His children.....that He is their total sustainer. If these folks are giving to the needs of their family and to their church, then missions should and can be that tertiary choice.

I know a Christian friend who had been out of work for two years...........He finally got a job, and promised the church that if he did get a job, that he would give his entire tax return from the IRS to a the Missions budget.

He got a job.......ended up with a sizeable tax return, but was still miserably behind on necessities that his family could have used. His wife had taken a job in a grocery store while he was out of work, and was working her body to the literal, "bone". My friend still gave the the whole tax return to the church. He in some ways regretted, having made that promise, yet he followed-through anyway.

I think that his whole family could have used a nice little vacation together, after all the stress of Daddy's two years of being out of work. That's just my opinion. His being out of work had put them behind....yet he felt obligated to follow-through on his promise. Would God have been angry if he had to tell the church that he had to change his mind, and put the tax return into family needs instead, with a contrite apology to the those in the church that new of his initial promise? Maybe my friend needed to be humbled into admitting that he had been rather compulsive, and not thinking about his responsibilities to his wife and kids as the spiritual leader of his family?
*
Christians are saved by God........not of ourselves.........We are saved by God.......not by alleged meritorious works....... Man's obligation is to be "grateful" in heart.

Remember the 10 healed Lepers........Jesus gave them all instructions to go to the temple and follow the proceedures of cleansing.........As they all proceeded away, they were healed..........but, "one", yes, "one" turned around and came back and fell at Jesus's feet.....in "gratitude"...........There was one "saved" man that day out of the 10 healed Lepers.......the other 9 followed the "rules".........in order to "be". Jesus even rhetorically said......"Weren't there 10?" In other words where were the others..... Well they were off fullfilling their "legal" obligation of cleansing from Leprosy.

Us Christians often overlook the "best" because we attempt to live out a whole life of trying to be a "Christian". A Christian is not a lifestyle.......it is an identity.....like being a lion, lamb, butterfly, or whatever. God makes you a Christian.......now you live out your life in your new identity.........as this new creature/creation called "Christian". Trouble is most of us Christians live out a live as though we are trying to maintain or hold on to our "identity" as though if we do one little "slip", God will withdraw our identity, and Wa La! we are not on the "notty" list, or even a non-Christian.......Some how being unmade from a new creature, back into the old, by are own "goof up". How sad, how unbiblical, and how un trusting. God is now the strict, task master.......who in a moments disappointment with us........slaps us upon the hand with his hard stinging ruler........That's legalism my friends..........That's now how Jesus revealed God to us.....as He was God.

Remember.......Jesus wanted to dine with Zacheus.....the sinnner.......after Zacheus understood and was filled with gratefullness of Jesus's love and acceptance, even though Zacheus was considered the scum of Jewish society, he/Zacheus promised to pay back all he robbed, and give much to the church/temple. Thats not legalistic giving.....that's a joyful...heart........a heart freed from do's and don't's of the Law.

Thats' the headache that Paul faced with the churches....they argued over "things" that they erroneously thought had some important significance about their Christian identity, or "being". Circumcise or not to circumcise......Nowadays....its. total immersion in baptism or sprinkling, Communion every Sunday or once a month, King James translations or other bible translations, giving "x" percentage or "y" amount. It still comes down to the nasty old thing called "works".

It's all a battle of legalism, only it's just disguised a little.

We are living by grace...... we give when we can, without hurting or endangering our financial obligations to those that God has blessed us with. What's a financially healthy church if all it's members are physically starving or being evicted from their homes or apartments........?

We aren't less a person because we can't give 10%. If God measured His love and grace towards us according to our legalistic obligations that we've self-inflicted upon ourselves........then we might as well go back to living under the old Mosaic Law again. We have fallen out of grace by our own volition, and biblical misinterpretation.

 

[flaja]

You are looking for a church worthy of your presence?

It must meet certain biblical criteria.....?

Take a look at Acts......written by Luke.......The churches were all different......they all had their good points and their weak points.....

And I am supposed to find what? Tell me which verses you wish for me to consult. Just how many distinct churches were there in Acts? What dissimilarities did they have?

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

 

[glockmail]

I just wanted to add a bit of humor. I hope you don’t consider me to be a bitter argumentative creep. Arguments and debates can get quite heated. Peace.

You? A bitter argumentative creep? No way!:happy2:

 

[glockmail]

But if so much as one is, it is one too many.

Exactly. Just like women. Paris Hilton is a tramp, so they're all worthless losers!

 

[5stringJeff]

If you are not demanding that anyone give God, i.e., your church, money, why did you claim that your church is giving only $2.5M when it is wealthy enough to give $10M. What difference does it make to you if you don’t wish obligate anyone to give money? And just how do you know how much the members of your church are worth? What makes you privy to their bank accounts?

The claim is based of statistics which I've been told, but haven't seen, which states that churches typically receive about 20-25% of what they would receive if everyone tithed.

Then enlighten me. Tell me what you consider to be bona fide social welfare service. And give me your church’s formal articles of faith while you’re at it.

Helping the unemployed get jobs.
Giving the homeless a place to sleep on nights where they might freeze to death.
Helping poor single mothers get a fresh start with reduced-price housing.
Ministering to those in prison.
Our church does all these things, and more that I'm sure I've overlooked, with the funds it receives.

And I'm sure you can google the Nazarene's articles of faith.

Who died and left you in charge? What entitles you to make these kinds of decisions?

My congregation, who elected me as financial chair on our church board.

That’s not likely saying much:

http://www.biblicalrecorder.com/news/9_4_98/baptist.html

Average pastoral salary by denomination in 1997-1998 (including pay, housing and utilities):

Baptist: $67,057
Episcopal: $65,995
Presbyterian: $65,567
Methodist: $64,940
Assemblies of God/Pentecostal (the ones most likely to preach tithing?): $62,343
Disciples of Christ: $53,577
Lutheran: $55,487
Nazarene/Evangelical Free: $54,108
Non-denominational/Independent (the ones most likely to have a my-way or the high-way pastor): $69,570

So how much should a pastor make? $20,000? $40,000? $60,000? What?

 

[CaffeineKid1988]

I've always thought that the 10% figure was the ideal amount...but I was always told by people at church that the amount doesn't matter as long as "your heart is in the right place", whatever that means. I know there are some megachurches out there that bilk people right and left for cash...and some even require members to sign on the dotted line and show the church their tax records to prove that they've been giving 10% every month. I think that's really gay and it ought to be illegal. Maybe it already is in some places, I don't know....but if I were dictator................nevermind.

 

[flaja]

If you are not demanding that anyone give God, i.e., your church, money, why did you claim that your church is giving only $2.5M when it is wealthy enough to give $10M. What difference does it make to you if you don’t wish obligate anyone to give money? And just how do you know how much the members of your church are worth? What makes you privy to their bank accounts?

The claim is based of statistics which I've been told, but haven't seen, which states that churches typically receive about 20-25% of what they would receive if everyone tithed.

But who compiled the statistics and what business did they have doing it?

Then enlighten me. Tell me what you consider to be bona fide social welfare service. And give me your church’s formal articles of faith while you’re at it.

Helping the unemployed get jobs.
Giving the homeless a place to sleep on nights where they might freeze to death.
Helping poor single mothers get a fresh start with reduced-price housing.
Ministering to those in prison.
Our church does all these things, and more that I'm sure I've overlooked, with the funds it receives.

A start.

And I'm sure you can google the Nazarene's articles of faith.

I have zero respect for the Nazarenes and this is due to personal experience. While investigating local churches, trying to find a church that would let a non-profit school rent or borrow classroom space I was invited to meet with a local Nazarene Pastor. He spent the better part of an hour berating me about Florida law governing private schools. Since I had just researched the issue, I know that what the man was telling me was wrong. I finally got up and left rather than submit to his belligerence.

On another occasion I asked to volunteer at a local food bank which was operated by a local Nazarene pastor. He refused to even acknowledge my email.

BTW: The Nazarenes accept post-1611 English translations of the Bible, none of which I have found to be 100% valid- meaning they are 100% worthless. So the Nazarene don’t follow legitimate Christian doctrine.

So how much should a pastor make? $20,000? $40,000? $60,000? What?

Depends on the number of members the church has, how many assistant pastors it has and what the church’s functions are and what the pastor is personally responsible for.

 

[5stringJeff]

BTW: The Nazarenes accept post-1611 English translations of the Bible, none of which I have found to be 100% valid- meaning they are 100% worthless. So the Nazarene don’t follow legitimate Christian doctrine.

Of all your posts, this paragraph is the most telling. I hope you have a 1611 AV in your house to back that particular stance up. I also hope you know Ye Olde English well enough for the 1611 AV to make sense. However, I suppose that's a different thread subject altogether.

 

[Eightball]

Crimoney! Every bible translation has it's strong points and weak points.......but overall they communicate the accurate gospel account, and doctrinal basis of Christianity.

I find myself often looking at the NASB, NIV, RS, and even the old KJV at times to make comparisons of certain bible verses, just to see what wording was used at certain junctures in verses that had my interest.
.....
Now there are some translations to avoid, as they were written with a very unbibilcal agenda........two come to mind......the Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation, and the good old Jeffersonian Bible by none other than good old Thomas Jefferson himself.

The NWT.....is fairly accurate except for it's many omissions of or changes of verses in the N.T. when it pertains to Jesus's divinity, or Godhood. As some know and others may not, the J.W.'s don't believe that Jesus is God incarnate, but actually the Arch Angel Michael.

In verses in the New Testament such as where the quote says, "Jesus is God"... the NWT has altered and bastardized the Greek to say, "Jesus was a god". This communicates to the reader that Jesus is just one of many gods....or lesser ones of veneration.....i.e. angels/Godly messengers. If the J.W.'s or Watch Tower didn't do this, it would contradict their unbiblical doctrine that Jesus is just a created being as the rest of us. The NWT by no means has changed all the references to Jesus's diety or being God, but they have blatantly in many versus of the N.T..

The Jeffersonian bible was basically a cut and paste attempt by Thomas Jefferson, that entailed eliminating those portions of scripture that he/Jefferson basically didn't agree with. I don't know if the removed verses made him uncomfortable, or he somehow intellectually found them wrong in some kind of skewed thinking. Personally, I believe that he removed scripture that "convicted" him personally, and he didn't want to deal with it. Not unlike many intellectuals nowadays. Trivialize the parts that don't conform to your personally developed doctrine, and magnify the ones that make you feel "warm" and "fuzzy" and unconvicted in the soul.

Of all things, my two older sons when they were mere young lads came home with a Jeffersonian bible that they bought for 25 cents at a neighborhood garage sale. If it weren't for that occassion, I would have never investigated this particular translation/bible. I did let my sons know that even though Mr. Jefferson was a great stateman, and leader of our great country in it's early days, he/Jefferson had made a grave error in writing and publishing this bible. Smart men don't necessarily do smart things spiritually......Smart people actually are more apt to be self-deluded....especially when they themselves start to let the big letter, "P" as in pride overtake their souls. People of all classes, education, job positions....can be deluded.......no one is exempt from being blinded spiritually to the truth of God. Sadly, the internal blinding is often self inflicted as we as a species don't want to be subservient to anything but ourselves.