But with the subject of tithing,...

[The ClayTaurus]

Who's posing?

Is it manly to pose as a woman?

 

[glockmail]

Is it manly to pose as a woman?

Ask the man who is.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Ask the man who is.

I am.

 

[Abbey Normal]

I am.

I thought you were posing as Arch? :fifty: Those romantic boat rides with your grandkids gave you away.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I thought you were posing as Arch? :fifty: Those romantic boat rides with your grandkids gave you away.

You seem to have your parties mixed up, dear.

 

[flaja]

As near as I can tell Pentecostals are the only group in Christendom that pushes tithes. The practice is utterly despicable. I have an elderly friend whose only source of income (apart from what her husband could earn when he was working) is a Social Security disability pension. I think she had a nervous breakdown in her early 30s so her mental state has never been good. The whole time I have known this woman she has never been a regular member of any church, but she was on the begging list of dozens of preachers. There were times when this woman would pay the preachers before she’d pay her light or water bill.

The woman’s husband died in 2001 and a little over a year ago she was put into nursing home against her will. She insists that she is being held prisoner so the nursing home can steal her Social Security and Medicaid money. The woman honestly believes that God put her in this nursing home as punishment because she did pay Him enough over the years.

Any preacher that preaches tithes is a crook.

 

[glockmail]

I am.

Posing as a woman? Shame on you! Although it does make sense with your name, CliTaurus.

 

[Eightball]

As near as I can tell Pentecostals are the only group in Christendom that pushes tithes. The practice is utterly despicable. I have an elderly friend whose only source of income (apart from what her husband could earn when he was working) is a Social Security disability pension. I think she had a nervous breakdown in her early 30s so her mental state has never been good. The whole time I have known this woman she has never been a regular member of any church, but she was on the begging list of dozens of preachers. There were times when this woman would pay the preachers before she’d pay her light or water bill.

The woman’s husband died in 2001 and a little over a year ago she was put into nursing home against her will. She insists that she is being held prisoner so the nursing home can steal her Social Security and Medicaid money. The woman honestly believes that God put her in this nursing home as punishment because she did pay Him enough over the years.

Any preacher that preaches tithes is a crook.

Absolutely not.........The old Presbyterian church that my folks belonged to in Cupertino, Calif, back in the 50's-60's would send around their elders to each member's house, once a year to discuss tithing, and get committments for the following year.

Even though, I don't recognize the Mormon Church as a biblical, Christian church, they have very strict tithing with their members..........to stay in good standing.

I still have a problem with this pressure enacted by churches on their members to "tithe". In some ways, I see it as being rather legalistic. As an earlier poster mentioned; giving should be from the "heart" or as one is "moved" to do it, but not doing it by following
the "letter" of a law, or scripture.

Legalism is the biggest enemy of Christ's church nowadays, and in the past. Apostle Paul spent page after page in so many of his epistles stressing the fact that the Law is good, but that the Christian is no longer bound by the Law as far as what the Law's intent was originally.

The Law can mean the 10 famous commandments, but it also can be one's motivation, internally, as a Christian. Do we serve God out of compassion/love, or out of fear of punishment or rejection from God in some way.

Tithing was trully an O.T. thing.......and I don't believe you'll find Tithing in the N.T. scriptures, as it was tied in so many ways to a legalist, obedience, or performance-based acceptance type of religious life.

Paul never said the Law was bad, and actually said that Jesus came to fullfill the Law..........that the Law now wouldn't be burdensome to all that are Christians, or belong to God through belief in Him(Jesus).

Paul goes on to emphasize in his epistle/letter to the Roman's Church that the Law was intended by God to show mankind that he/she was utterly helpless to "keep" it perfectly. Only Christ could fullfill the Law 100% in total, and thusly would be the only capable/suitable, perfect sacrifice to meet the standards of the Law.

So now Christians don't live for the "law", but live by faith in Christ who did indeed fullfill the requirements of the law. Also Paul emphasizes that the "law" is written in the hearts of every believer now, through their lives being "in Christ"(Romans). Pauls says that every Christian is "dead" to sin and alive to Christ.........through their Co-death, Co-burial, and Co-ressurrection in Christ's life at the time of their conversion through faith in obedient work of salvation(Romans 6, and Galatians 2:20).

The Law as Paul said was given to show man how sinful he was/is..........not with the intention of being the channel of salvation through man's obedience to the Law, as this was/is utterly impossible............This is evidenced by the Jew's yearly sacrifice to carry their sins over for another year. The Jew hoped for the final, finish to the burden of sin carried each year or placed on the Mercy Seat of the Arch of the Covenant in the Temple. The blood of a unblemished lamb was sprinkled by a high Levitical priest over the Mercy Seat, as a symbolic sign that God's Mercy was continued. Also the unblemished lamb was God's reminder that a perfect sacrifice.........not a lamb, but a human and God, would be forth-coming..........

Interestingly, two lambs were picked for this ritual....one was sacrificed for the blood sprinkling and the other was let loose, free, out side the city gates of Jerusalem to run off into the wilderness. The one that was sent off into the wilderness, ritually, or metaphorically carried the sins of the people in it........and it's running off away from the people meant that their sins were carried far off from them. Of couse that's what Christ later did in reality and not in ritual.......as God said that your sins are as far away as the East is from the West..........Never to come back, but blotted out.......for eternity......forgotten......judicially, paid-for/attoned by the ultimate, unblemished Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, God's Son.

Anyway......Tithing is not bad, if done in the spirit of giving from the heart,,,,,,,,but unfortunately many believers/church members, and many churches enact this "right" in a way that instills no meaning or gratitude for God's grace in the believer's life.......but emphasizes it in a way that instills, "guilt".........thus motivating giving in an unbiblical way. "If you don't do your God-required part........you will fall out of favor with God......and also that new church building project will not happen, or new Choir robes will not be purchased.....etc, etc.....

If lots of tithing builds big mega churches.......and the tithing is a result of a "right" heart attitude about it, and the tithing isn't emphaisized as a mandate or "else" to the beleivers..........then, "Amen"......to a big church. Yet a believers motivations are the "key". Do we feel guilty because we can't afford to give.....or can't meet the 10% O.T. tithing limit? Is that what giving is supposed to be? God wants obedience from all of His children, but not an obedience compelled by guilt.......and guilt with the motivation that this is the only way to receive God's love. If that's the case, then God's love is conditional on our performance..........and that's also called performance-based acceptance.........that's totally unscriptural. God wants joyful givers.....or no givers at all.

I don't believe that anywhere in scripture that a large church or big church means that one is doing things more scriptural than the other. God is the one that makes them grow, and God can allow the attendance to shrink too. It's His church..........and it needs to be viewed by the public, and it's members as a very extention of God, Himself. It was exude with love, that accepts the unpretty as well as the beautiful.......the gross sinner as well as the hypocrite that things they never sin......

Not all great revivals of the past were necessarily works of God, if they started on a false premises/foundational truths.

As Romans 3:23 says very clearly, "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.".....Yep, "All". Even Pastors, charitable people, presidents, Popes, Nuns, church elders, Deacons,.......everyone....Moms, Dads, teenagers, and children that reach the age of accountability too.

We don't appease God through giving to Him, as in reality, God doesn't even need our money.........He owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills......is just a mild reminder of His riches.........as they are infinite.........

Tithing or giving is a spiritual-muscle exercise that helps us grow in our relationship with God. We should give when we can, but not at the expense of sacrificing a meal or a roof over our heads for ourselves, or our loved-ones. In some ways this can be "testing" God to provide when we exercise poor wisdom/reasoning with our giving. Granted, there are times when we have only a choice to stick out our necks on the perverbial chopping block of faith and hope/trust that God can solve a situation too. With that, God isn't in the business of encouraging evictions for the sake of giving.........or then He's a cruel task master, and Christ never portrayed that image to man in His 33 years on earth. Christ argued against all the rules and regulations that the Pharisees piled upon the original Law......one could not even pull their donkey out of a ditch on the Sabath without incurring the wrath of the Pharisees and Sadducees......the protectors and enforcers of Jewish Law. Jesus and His disciples were even assailed for picking off the heads of grains in a field for a snack on the Sabath day.

God rested on the seventh day.......But the rest he wanted from us, was an internal rest..........or peace that resulted from a confidence in our security, in Him through His Son's life, given to us.....Freely. If God rested, the way so many legalistic, religious folks interpret God's Rest, the seventh day would be a day when all Hell would happen to us and all of creation, as it would mean that God ceased from doing anything........That would include holding all things together(Colossians). God is always at work.........even on the Sabath......as he intervenes in our lives graciously.........and with great providence...and wisdom.........

No, God wanted us to observe an internal rest.....and even make it a 7 day a week past-time as Christians.

Tithe if you want........but do it out of gratitude of your love for God and all He's done in your life.......and for how much your confident in Him and His provisions.......That's why the Widow's mite, was a greater sacrifice at the temple than the rich pharisees's many silver coins given. One giving was done in the vain of love, gratitude, and sacrifice with trust in needs being met by an omnipotent God, and the other giving was done with "public showing-off" and hardly a sacrifice of that person's financial means of sustenance.

 

[flaja]

Absolutely not.........The old Presbyterian church that my folks belonged to in Cupertino, Calif, back in the 50's-60's would send around their elders to each member's house, once a year to discuss tithing, and get committments for the following year.

Had this Presbyterian Church been infiltrated by Charismatics, which are just Pentecostals that stayed with the old denominations?

Even though, I don't recognize the Mormon Church as a biblical, Christian church, they have very strict tithing with their members..........to stay in good standing.

The Mormon Church is a cult, pure and simple. It has no Biblical foundation.

I still have a problem with this pressure enacted by churches on their members to "tithe". In some ways, I see it as being rather legalistic. As an earlier poster mentioned; giving should be from the "heart" or as one is "moved" to do it, but not doing it by following
the "letter" of a law, or scripture.

My opinion is that any adult who wishes to have a say in how the church is managed should contribute an equal amount towards maintaining the church, i.e., paying the rent/mortgage, light bill and pastor’s salary. Anything a member wishes to contribute over and above this minimum amount should be donated anonymously so no one can try to claim a greater say in how the church operates simply because they contributed a certain amount of money.

Tithing was trully an O.T. thing.......and I don't believe you'll find Tithing in the N.T. scriptures, as it was tied in so many ways to a legalist, obedience, or performance-based acceptance type of religious life.

True. Tithes are not mentioned or commanded in the NT, but tithing preachers will say Peter paid alms at the Temple in Jerusalem so he was still paying tithes.

 

[Eightball]

That Presbyterian church was not filled with any Charismatics.........in fact it was so dull, and dead inside...it was like going to a funeral service.

No one brought a bible with them, back then........That has changed a lot in all the Protestant churches in general. Back then the Reverend opened the "word", read a scripture passage, we all said.........."Amen" and then he proceeded to preach a message based on that scripture passage.(Actually the messages often drifted away from any meanful connection with the scripture verse.). It all was very ritualistic......reading by benedictions......etc........Seemed like there was nothing personal in the service.

My first exposure to bringing a bible to church was when I met my future wife. She attended a non-denominational Christian church, and invited me to attend with her on a Sunday morning service. All around me folks had their own bibles.........King James.....New American Standards......etc........The Preacher would say, "turn to such and such book of the bible and a certain verse, and you could hear all these pages being turned. Everyone was so interested in following the preacher's message. It was new to me, coming from a very legalist, Presbyterian church background, and a very "dead", one, spiritually, at that in my opinion. It had also been years since I had been in a church since that Presbyterian experience too.

Anyway.....hearing a preacher actually talk about the bible, and not just read a verse and then give a 45 minute talk on the do's and don'ts of life was a real eye-opener. I actually listened to systematic scripture-preaching with life application blended in.

I found that the these messages directly from the scripture were intriguing, and also very convicting to me personally. I found myself deep inside, starting to realize that I was really missing something that most of these folks in the congregation seemed to have a "hold" on.

Months later, and after marrying my church-going sweet heart, I attended a service at her church that really hit me in the heart&reasoning department. I came to this personal realization that my life was really endless and lost without acknowledging, believing in, and receiving Jesus whole-heartedly as my Saviour and Lord of my life.
*
I do know that many mainstream denominations, including he Catholic church have sub-churches that are very Charismatic. I do have some trepidations with the Charismatic movement, as it can leans so heavily up experiential phenomena happening around and within the believer's life that scripture often become secondary to the experiences and feelings that the Christians have. In other words validity of one's salvation, standing before their Creator starts to be based on how one feels from moment to moment.........This is all contradictory to that famous verse that says......."Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.". Faith is based on objective reasoning, not on the feeling of the moment or a mysterious apparition that forms on the wall of a building that looks like the Virgin Mary, or whatever.

The Bereans of the bible didn't even trust the words of the Apostle Paul.......as they would immediately go to their scripture to compare what Paul had told them to see if Paul was misleading them. Paul actually lauded them for that.

 

[glockmail]

Understanding what it means to be in Christ is the key to understanding why tithing is not part of the New Covenant.

In Christ, we are no longer just servants of God who live by laws and principles as people did before the cross and the resurrection. We are now spiritually re-born of God and live by the indwelling Christ himself.

Tithing was instituted for people who had a different relation to God than we now have in Christ. Tithing is inconsistent with the most important aspects of the New Covenant and the believer's new nature in Christ.

http://www.tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/index.html

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Posing as a woman? Shame on you! Although it does make sense with your name, CliTaurus.

Simple application of context reveals the truth of my response:

Ask the man who is

I am (asking the man who is)

 

[glockmail]

What-ever, Clit!

 

[The ClayTaurus]

What-ever, Clit!

Curious that you do not outright deny it. Curious, but not surprising. Perhaps you are ashamed of your gender?

 

[5stringJeff]

My two cents on this (no pun intended):

I believe that tithing is a Biblical concept. I believe that a Christian's giving should begin with tithing and go up from there. After all, we are not giving God anything except that which is already His. Look through the Bible, and see if you can find one place where God gives up ownership of anything. It's not there. God has called humankind to be stewards of His creation, to include the money that we have. (Not to mention, the practice of tithing was established by Abraham, not the Mosiac law, and so is not "invalidated" by the new covenant.)

I believe that a Christian's tithe should go to the church which he attends. I read through glockmail's posts about his church's budget. I am the stewardship/finance chair at my church, so I'm responsible for putting the church's budget together. We, too, experience about a 1.5-2% "effective tithe." If we got people to tithe fully, we'd be spending about $10 million a year. (As it is, we get about $2.5M/yr.) Frankly, the extra money we get would go to support the several missionaries and charities that we support. It's not accurate to say that all the money in a church goes to line the pockets of the pastors.

I would encourage every Christian to 1) find a church they feel comfortable tithing to, and 2) start tithing.

 

[glockmail]

My two cents on this (no pun intended):

I believe that tithing is a Biblical concept. I believe that a Christian's giving should begin with tithing and go up from there. After all, we are not giving God anything except that which is already His. Look through the Bible, and see if you can find one place where God gives up ownership of anything. It's not there. God has called humankind to be stewards of His creation, to include the money that we have. (Not to mention, the practice of tithing was established by Abraham, not the Mosiac law, and so is not "invalidated" by the new covenant.)

I believe that a Christian's tithe should go to the church which he attends. I read through glockmail's posts about his church's budget. I am the stewardship/finance chair at my church, so I'm responsible for putting the church's budget together. We, too, experience about a 1.5-2% "effective tithe." If we got people to tithe fully, we'd be spending about $10 million a year. (As it is, we get about $2.5M/yr.) Frankly, the extra money we get would go to support the several missionaries and charities that we support. It's not accurate to say that all the money in a church goes to line the pockets of the pastors.

I would encourage every Christian to 1) find a church they feel comfortable tithing to, and 2) start tithing.

If the church were to provide all of the services that they did during Abraham's time, then 10% would be more than reasonable. As the guv'mint has taken over most of these duties, and taxes us well in excess of 10% (I figger 50% in many cases) then the 10% asked by some churches is totally unreasonable.

And as I said before, the preists in my church have taken vows of poverty and have the salaries to prove it.

 

[5stringJeff]

If the church were to provide all of the services that they did during Abraham's time, then 10% would be more than reasonable. As the guv'mint has taken over most of these duties, and taxes us well in excess of 10% (I figger 50% in many cases) then the 10% asked by some churches is totally unreasonable.

And as I said before, the preists in my church have taken vows of poverty and have the salaries to prove it.

Some churches do provide those services, albeit in smaller quantities, to the less fortunate members of the congregation or society. Also, the modern church has a mission (i.e. Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all nations) that the Israelites did not have. That mission takes a good bit of money to support - about 15% of my church's budget, IIRC.

 

[glockmail]

Some churches do provide those services, albeit in smaller quantities, to the less fortunate members of the congregation or society. Also, the modern church has a mission (i.e. Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all nations) that the Israelites did not have. That mission takes a good bit of money to support - about 15% of my church's budget, IIRC.

My church has outreach programs as well with a scope far greater than anything Moses could have imagined. Could they do more with 10% of my earnings vs 1 or 2%? Of course. But that's not the point.

The Bible decribes the mission of the early church, as well as the required contribution. There was no government, as the church did it all. In contemporay times we have the church and government providing these services and much more, and taking much more. Right now I'm giving about 50% to support these two entities. Where does it end? Does it end when I give everything but 10% to live on?

 

[5stringJeff]

My church has outreach programs as well with a scope far greater than anything Moses could have imagined. Could they do more with 10% of my earnings vs 1 or 2%? Of course. But that's not the point.

The Bible decribes the mission of the early church, as well as the required contribution. There was no government, as the church did it all. In contemporay times we have the church and government providing these services and much more, and taking much more. Right now I'm giving about 50% to support these two entities. Where does it end? Does it end when I give everything but 10% to live on?

I understand your concern. However, we are to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's." In other words, what we give to the government shouldn't affect what we give to God.

Now, if you wanted to talk about how much we overpay for government services, that's a whole new thread...

 

[glockmail]

I understand your concern. However, we are to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's." In other words, what we give to the government shouldn't affect what we give to God.

....

Luking at the context to Luke 20 I see nothing to suggest that Jesus was talking about this issue:

20Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

23He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24"Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?"

25"Caesar's," they replied.
He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

26They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.

If the contemporary church does not provide the services that the ancient church used to provide (security, courts, water, sanitation) than the contemporary church should not expect to get paid for those services. In effect we would be paying twice.