Bring it on.

[bk1983]

You go ahead and keep whipping that dead, rotting, stinking corpse of a horse. I'm moving on.

I hear Safeway has a special on tinfoil - maybe you should stock up...

Yes I know I spanked your sorry ass, your concession is noted.

 

[bk1983]

THIS Scott Ritter?

CNN.com - Ex-arms inspector, war foe Ritter confirms 2001 arrest - Jan. 23, 2003

Yes that Scott Ritter, nice strawman by the way.. You want to tell me what he was wrong about with his position on Iraq and WMD's?

 

[DiveCon]

Yes that Scott Ritter, nice strawman by the way.. You want to tell me what he was wrong about with his position on Iraq and WMD's?

read the Kay and Duefler reports

 

[bk1983]

read the Kay and Duefler reports

I did read the reports, did you?

Kay stated in his report that the NIE was mostly based on the testimony of Iraqi defectors, and were not in fact reliable or trustworthy. That was the whole argument I am trying to make here, of course there was intelligence that stated Iraq had WMD's. You can find intelligence that says elephants can hang by their eyelashes, doesn't make it facts. The whole point I continued to try and make is that the intel was based on faulty sources.

 

[DiveCon]

I did read the reports, did you?

Kay stated in his report that the NIE was mostly based on the testimony of Iraqi defectors, and were not in fact reliable or trustworthy. That was the whole argument I am trying to make here, of course there was intelligence that stated Iraq had WMD's. You can find intelligence that says elephants can hang by their eyelashes, doesn't make it facts. The whole point I continued to try and make is that the intel was based on faulty sources.

did you read the ACTUAL reports or the media synopsis of them?

 

[bk1983]

did you read the ACTUAL reports or the media synopsis of them?

I am tired of this merry go round with you. You are the one who relies on MSM for all your info.. It is clear by the way you post, you have not countered one argument, yet "claim" that you read all these reports. I will stop feeding you because it is apparent you are nothing more then a troll. Let me know if you provide something of substance.

 

[DiveCon]

I am tired of this merry go round with you. You are the one who relies on MSM for all your info.. It is clear by the way you post, you have not countered one argument, yet "claim" that you read all these reports. I will stop feeding you because it is apparent you are nothing more then a troll. Let me know if you provide something of substance.

the reasoin i ask is because you MIRROR the lies the media told about the reports, and are not even close to the actual report
i guess that makes you the troll

 

[Gunny]

I haven't read any of the preceeding posts, nor do I intend to. It is unneccessary to understanding it would bea STUPID precedent to set, and those setting it would be whining the loudest when it was used against them later, down the line.

I've bitched about Republicans doing this and I will do no less for Democrats ... setting policy with no eye toward the future past the next 4 years is .. well .. STUPID.

That is my general take on the conversation as I saw it going on page 1. IIRC however, the idea berhind the committee is to take corrective action, not seek prosecution. I see NO harm in that, even if I may not agree with some of the specific corrective action(s).

 

[editec]

I haven't read any of the preceeding posts, nor do I intend to. It is unneccessary to understanding it would bea STUPID precedent to set, and those setting it would be whining the loudest when it was used against them later, down the line.

I've bitched about Republicans doing this and I will do no less for Democrats ... setting policy with no eye toward the future past the next 4 years is .. well .. STUPID.

That is my general take on the conversation as I saw it going on page 1. IIRC however, the idea berhind the committee is to take corrective action, not seek prosecution. I see NO harm in that, even if I may not agree with some of the specific corrective action(s).

I would be satisfied if we simply noted what happened, and corrected the mistakes or consitions that made the errors in judgement possible.

Fat chance that will happen, though.

Why?

Because if we really delved into this disaster honestly we might come to discover that the MISTAKES weren't mistakes at all.

And then where would we be?

We'd be a position of having to decide what to do with the players of the Bush II admin who knowingly got us into a war based on lies, that's where we'd be.

And one thing we surely do NOT want to do is hold our politicians accountable for lying to the American public because?

Because then THIS admin might be held to a high standard that they don't want to be held to either.

The sooner you folks realize that that the Rs and Ds are essantially the same class of people, the sooner we citizens can decide what to do about it.

But as long as the American people are duped into partisanship, there's not a snowballs chance in hell that will happen.

You people would rather insult each other to make yourselves feel good about being who you are, then you want to look honestly at the people leading us and do anything about it.

If you have a job and want to keep that job, I frankly cannot blame most of you for refusing to admit the truth.

This society does not treat truth-speakers all that kindly.

 

[Gord]

I would be satisfied if we simply noted what happened, and corrected the mistakes or consitions that made the errors in judgement possible.

Fat chance that will happen, though.

Why?

Because if we really delved into this disaster honestly we might come to discover that the MISTAKES weren't mistakes at all.

And then where would we be?

We'd be a position of having to decide what to do with the players of the Bush II admin who knowingly got us into a war based on lies, that's where we'd be.

Well the "MISTAKES weren't mistakes". The administration did not "knowingly" get us "into a war based on lies".

Perhaps you missed this post:

Prewar intel led congress to the correct conclusion that Saddam Hussein would be a future threat. All congressional members were provided full access to the National Intelligence Estimate which spelled out various intel agencies pros and cons of Iraq as a future threat to America, the Middle East region, and the world. The result was that 71% of congress passed the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. The emphasis of the authorization was not just that Saddam posed an imminent threat, but that he had in the past posed a threat, and posed a future threat based on his presumed desires to reconstitute his WMD programs and his ties with international terrorism groups and other rogue nations.

In September 2004 the Iraqi Survey Group Duelfer Report included the following:

"[Saddam Hussein] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted."

"we have clear evidence of his intent to resume WMD production as soon as sanctions were lifted"

"Saddam did express his intent to retain the intellectual capital developed during the Iraqi Nuclear Program."

"Iraq took steps to conceal key elements of its program and to preserve what it could of the professional capabilities of its nuclear scientific community."

"ISG found a limited number of post—1995 activities that would have aided the reconstitution of the nuclear weapons program once sanctions were lifted."

"Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted and conditions were judged favorable."

"Iraq's historical ability to implement simple solutions to weaponization challenges allowed Iraq to retain the capability to weaponize CW agent when the need arose."

"Iraq Could Maintain CW Competence With Relative Ease"

"ISG judges that Iraq's actions between 1991 and 1996 demonstrate that the state intended to preserve its BW capability and return to a steady, methodical progress toward a mature BW program when and if the opportunity arose."

"Depending on its scale, Iraq could have re—established an elementary BW program within a few weeks to a few months of a decision to do so..."

Charles Duelfer's predecessor, David Kay also agreed with his findings:

"A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to U.N. monitoring and suitable for continuing (chemical and biological weapons) research."

"A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of (biological weapons) agents, that Iraqi officials . . . were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N."

"Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons."

"New research on (biological weapon)-applicable agents . . . and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the U.N. Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation."

The recent U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under a Democrat majority released a report in June 2008 called, "Report on Whether Public Statements Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government officials Were Substantiated by Intelligence Information". These were its conclusions:

"Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of biological agents, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile biological laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of chemical weapons were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves."

"Statements ... regarding Iraqi ballistic missiles were generally substantiated by available intelligence."

"Statements ... that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles that could be use to deliver chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements or evolving views that existed in the intelligence community."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qa'ida were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other al-Qa'ida-related terrorist members were substantiated by the intelligence assessments."

So basically a Democrat majority, after-the-fact report concludes that prewar "Public Statements Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government officials" "were generally substantiated by intelligence information" available at the time. In other words, congress was not misled by the administration into approving the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.

In conclusion, the prewar intelligence that suggested that Saddam would be a future threat has been confirmed.

 

[Old Rocks]

LOL. Just keep repeating the official line, Gordo. In the meantime, there were people who gave accurate assessments, and were duly punished. From Ritter to Wilson and Plame. You guys are a hoot. The facts are all in, the American Public has judged them, and realize that we went to war on the basis of lies.

Whether or not anyone is prosecuted for the crimes committed in the last eight years, an inquiry into how we went so far astray, and how we were led would at least show us paths that we must avoid in the future.

 

[Gord]

LOL. Just keep repeating the official line, Gordo. In the meantime, there were people who gave accurate assessments, and were duly punished. From Ritter to Wilson and Plame. You guys are a hoot. The facts are all in, the American Public has judged them, and realize that we went to war on the basis of lies.

Whether or not anyone is prosecuted for the crimes committed in the last eight years, an inquiry into how we went so far astray, and how we were led would at least show us paths that we must avoid in the future.

Ritter and Wilson?!?! Two guys who saw a chance for fame and fortune by reversing their stories 180 degrees...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

LOL. Just keep repeating the official line, Gordo. In the meantime, there were people who gave accurate assessments, and were duly punished. From Ritter to Wilson and Plame. You guys are a hoot. The facts are all in, the American Public has judged them, and realize that we went to war on the basis of lies.

Whether or not anyone is prosecuted for the crimes committed in the last eight years, an inquiry into how we went so far astray, and how we were led would at least show us paths that we must avoid in the future.

If sand were his sphincter, this member's head would be firmly embedded in the sand...

It's the same old lines from these idiots... they take snippets from functionaries whose task it was to gather DATA and demand that these functionaries findings were CONCLUSIVE. The simple fact is their findings were NOT CONCLUSIVE; NOR WERE THESE FUNCTIONARIES SADDLED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DEFEND THE UNITED STATES FROM FURTHER THREAT!

That task/RESPONSIBILITY rests PURELY, SOLELY and WHOLLY with the EXECUTIVE who had to base HIS DECISION on the broader picture which was comprised of ALL OF THE DATA, much to which we are not privy...

It is absolutely clear, to the non-idiots, that Hussein (the former Iraqi President, not the new, Democratic-elected US Hesitant-Elect) was a major proponent of international Islamic terrorism and had used such to attack the US, her interests and allies in the past and steadfastly REFUSED to comply with it's obligations to the US and the international community.

Hussein is dead, Iraq is a freely elected Democratic Republic and is on its way to being the SECOND free culture in the Middle East.

We can be certain that given their way, these leftists will return the Us to a pre-911 posture where will once again rest vulnerable to a viscious attack by their terrorist comrades. Where the left has power, the US is vulnerable and that my fellow board members is as certain as the sun rising.

 

[AllieBaba]

especially when the women commited sex acts by their own choice and afterwords recieved promotions or were not fired or didn't even work for him.

Oh that's right. It's the victim's fault.

Paula what's her name didn't work for him, didn't receive a promotion, and certainly committed no sex acts. Despite being roughed up by him.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

In order for the US and Bush to have LIED us into war with Iraq you have to accept that EVERY nation in Europe, Russia, China, and most of the Pacific and SE Asian nations all lied as well. You would have to accept that the ENTIRE leadership of the previous Administration lied us into a war. You would have to accept that the entire Leadership of the Democratic Party in 2002 LIED us into a war.

I really want the mind control ray gun that Bush used to accomplish all this with. He can keep his Nintendo control that Cheney used to fly the planes in the Twin Towers.

Not only did all the above also lie but the democrats in Congress continued to lie in every investigation launched to prove anything illegal happened and they lied every time they voted for more funds for the Iraq war.

 

[AllieBaba]

This is just left-wing hysteria and fear-mongering.

We went to war because Hussein refused to comply with the terms he agreed to. Pure and simple. WMDs were a consideration, but ultimately, he wouldn't take the steps he agreed to take to remain transparent. Too fucking bad. We did the right thing, the people of Iraq are thankful, end of fucking story.

 

[Red Dawn]

In order for the US and Bush to have LIED us into war with Iraq you have to accept that EVERY nation in Europe, Russia, China, and most of the Pacific and SE Asian nations all lied as well. You would have to accept that the ENTIRE leadership of the previous Administration lied us into a war. You would have to accept that the entire Leadership of the Democratic Party in 2002 LIED us into a war.

I really want the mind control ray gun that Bush used to accomplish all this with. He can keep his Nintendo control that Cheney used to fly the planes in the Twin Towers.

Not only did all the above also lie but the democrats in Congress continued to lie in every investigation launched to prove anything illegal happened and they lied every time they voted for more funds for the Iraq war.

Bush lied and exaggerated about Iraq having a nuclear weapons program, about Saddam training and arming Al Qaeda terrorists, and about Iraq being an urgent and mortal threat to the homeland of the United States.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Bush lied

Did he? What lie is that? Be specific and links to some radical leftist website will not be accepted... Either post a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF PRESIDENT BUSH MAKING A STATEMENT WHICH HE KNEW TO BE FALSE FOR THE PURPOSES OF DECEPTION OR CONCEDE THAT YOU'RE FULL OF PC AD POPULUM BULLSHIT BY FAILING TO DO SO...

You've one move to checkmate... Mate.

and exaggerated about Iraq having a nuclear weapons program, about Saddam training and arming Al Qaeda terrorists, and about Iraq being an urgent and mortal threat to the homeland of the United States.

I think you're confusing Bush with the intelligence which indicated that to which he was asserting... it's typical of your ideology; you people are clearly incapable of reason and while that's no crime, per se, it should prohibit you from voting.

 

[Gord]

Bush lied and exaggerated about Iraq having a nuclear weapons program, about Saddam training and arming Al Qaeda terrorists, and about Iraq being an urgent and mortal threat to the homeland of the United States.

Perhaps you also missed this post:

Prewar intel led congress to the correct conclusion that Saddam Hussein would be a future threat. All congressional members were provided full access to the National Intelligence Estimate which spelled out various intel agencies pros and cons of Iraq as a future threat to America, the Middle East region, and the world. The result was that 71% of congress passed the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. The emphasis of the authorization was not just that Saddam posed an imminent threat, but that he had in the past posed a threat, and posed a future threat based on his presumed desires to reconstitute his WMD programs and his ties with international terrorism groups and other rogue nations.

In September 2004 the Iraqi Survey Group Duelfer Report included the following:

"[Saddam Hussein] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted."

"we have clear evidence of his intent to resume WMD production as soon as sanctions were lifted"

"Saddam did express his intent to retain the intellectual capital developed during the Iraqi Nuclear Program."

"Iraq took steps to conceal key elements of its program and to preserve what it could of the professional capabilities of its nuclear scientific community."

"ISG found a limited number of post—1995 activities that would have aided the reconstitution of the nuclear weapons program once sanctions were lifted."

"Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted and conditions were judged favorable."

"Iraq's historical ability to implement simple solutions to weaponization challenges allowed Iraq to retain the capability to weaponize CW agent when the need arose."

"Iraq Could Maintain CW Competence With Relative Ease"

"ISG judges that Iraq's actions between 1991 and 1996 demonstrate that the state intended to preserve its BW capability and return to a steady, methodical progress toward a mature BW program when and if the opportunity arose."

"Depending on its scale, Iraq could have re—established an elementary BW program within a few weeks to a few months of a decision to do so..."

Charles Duelfer's predecessor, David Kay also agreed with his findings:

"A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to U.N. monitoring and suitable for continuing (chemical and biological weapons) research."

"A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of (biological weapons) agents, that Iraqi officials . . . were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N."

"Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons."

"New research on (biological weapon)-applicable agents . . . and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the U.N. Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation."

The recent U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under a Democrat majority released a report in June 2008 called, "Report on Whether Public Statements Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government officials Were Substantiated by Intelligence Information". These were its conclusions:

"Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of biological agents, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile biological laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of chemical weapons were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves."

"Statements ... regarding Iraqi ballistic missiles were generally substantiated by available intelligence."

"Statements ... that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles that could be use to deliver chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements or evolving views that existed in the intelligence community."

"Statements ... regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qa'ida were substantiated by intelligence information."

"Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other al-Qa'ida-related terrorist members were substantiated by the intelligence assessments."

So basically a Democrat majority, after-the-fact report concludes that prewar "Public Statements Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government officials" "were generally substantiated by intelligence information" available at the time. In other words, congress was not misled by the administration into approving the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.

In conclusion, the prewar intelligence that suggested that Saddam would be a future threat has been confirmed.

 

[pfife]

If sand were his sphincter, this member's head would be firmly embedded in the sand...

It's the same old lines from these idiots... they take snippets from functionaries whose task it was to gather DATA and demand that these functionaries findings were CONCLUSIVE. The simple fact is their findings were NOT CONCLUSIVE; NOR WERE THESE FUNCTIONARIES SADDLED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DEFEND THE UNITED STATES FROM FURTHER THREAT!

That task/RESPONSIBILITY rests PURELY, SOLELY and WHOLLY with the EXECUTIVE who had to base HIS DECISION on the broader picture which was comprised of ALL OF THE DATA, much to which we are not privy...

It is absolutely clear, to the non-idiots, that Hussein (the former Iraqi President, not the new, Democratic-elected US Hesitant-Elect) was a major proponent of international Islamic terrorism and had used such to attack the US, her interests and allies in the past and steadfastly REFUSED to comply with it's obligations to the US and the international community.

Hussein is dead, Iraq is a freely elected Democratic Republic and is on its way to being the SECOND free culture in the Middle East.

We can be certain that given their way, these leftists will return the Us to a pre-911 posture where will once again rest vulnerable to a viscious attack by their terrorist comrades. Where the left has power, the US is vulnerable and that my fellow board members is as certain as the sun rising.

Your signature clearly demonstrates that you have no clue what communism is.

Re Wikipedia:

Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general.

Are you aware of an authoritarian, non-government government?