Blame Canada

[Samson]

Ok, "only in ignorant minds."

Ignorant Minds have Exterminated Millions.

They wouldn't get far with us, I assure you.

I hope you're right, my friend.

My point wasn't to suggest there should be an "Islamic Pope."

My point was to suggest that some Islamic country lead others in vigorously condemning Islamists that resort to violent threats against anyone, including South Park Producers.

In that case, I apologize for misinterpreting your post. I'll assume that you mean violent threats against non-combatants. Still, this raises several issues. Having one nation at the helm of the religion would be inappropriate, because Islamists reject the notion that Muslims should be divided by political boundaries in the first place. The call would have to come from a scholar, which brings us back to the issue of decentralization. No single scholar or body of scholars exercises influence over a large enough portion of believers to speak for the entire religion (though that doesn't stop them from attempting to do so.)

Secondly, any person or group who is "vigorously" devoted to denouncing threats runs the risk of being disregarded as a stooge of the West.

Thirdly, I don't think it makes sense to hold the entire religion accountable when a single person posts a threatening remark on a blog. This incident doesn't deserve the amount of attention it's receiving; death threats are issued on the internet every day and nobody has time to monitor and condemn every one of them.

Your first point doesn't make sense to me: How come leaders can call for fatwah, but leaders cannot denounce violence?

The second point is well taken: But its not called "Leadership" because its popular. I'm not really blaming Islam for not producing such a leader, since they are rare in any case. I'm only saying that if Islam had such a leader, then it would suppress the ease at which some condemn all Islam for the actions of a few.

I agree with your third point. But Islam doesn't offer much in defence (or better, prevention) when it is accused of being a religion that encourages death threats. Maybe I'm wrong? Please show me how ignorant I am: Quote Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

 

[Si modo]

Your book of your religion justifies lying to me, an infidel - several entries.

The Qur'an? Please, don't hesitate to be more specific.

I bet you want to call me a ****, yet again, and blame me for your doing so.

It sure sounds like you want me to. Islamophobia always seems to be accompanied by a persecution complex.

You're a good little Muslim - a great ambassador for your religion.

You wouldn't know.

Hmmm. I have a fear of Islam and a persecution complex because YOU callled me a ****. You are a good little Muslim and I learn of Islam from your book and good little Muslims like you.

It's interesting that you do not condemn these threats on cartoonists and even blame da joos for it - 'the guy is a converted Jew".

Yup, you are the face of Islam.

 

[Xenophon]

You're a troll, and a bad one at that. Don't use insults you can't spell, by the way. It's "medieval."

No my camel sniffing murder supporting primative fucktard, I am no 'troll,' but its a good bet ol Mo was, wasn't he busy fucking a 10 year old he called his 'wife?'

 

[Kalam]

I hope you're right, my friend.

Oh, I have little doubt that I am in this case. One of the miracles of Islam is the willingness of believers to lay down their lives in defense of their oppressed brothers and sisters no matter where they are.

Your first point doesn't make sense to me: How come leaders can call for fatwah, but leaders cannot denounce violence?

They can do either. You're really talking about the same thing; If a person of knowledge makes a formal denunciation of something and provides a sound religious justification for his or her position, a fatwa has effectively been issued. Again, the problem is that fataawa aren't binding. If a notable scholar issues a fatwa, those who hold him or her in high regard are likely to abide by it, but there's no requirement that they do so.

The second point is well taken: But its not called "Leadership" because its popular. I'm not really blaming Islam for not producing such a leader, since they are rare in any case. I'm only saying that if Islam had such a leader, then it would suppress the ease at which some condemn all Islam for the actions of a few.

I understand, but it's just not something I see happening, especially not among the Ahl as-Sunnah. We're divided into too many disparate factions. The Shi'iah faith is far more hierarchical and probably provides a framework in which such a leader is more likely to emerge, but they're significantly fewer in number than us and we would never turn to their scholars for guidance in religious matters.

I agree with your third point. But Islam doesn't offer much in defence (or better, prevention) when it is accused of being a religion that encourages death threats. Maybe I'm wrong? Please show me how ignorant I am: Quote Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

I don't think it would prove anything.

Here are a few fataawa from various Sunni scholars anyway:
Slaying American Civilians in Iraq - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Fight Ethics Between Islam and Zionism - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
War Ethics in Islam - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
What Does Islam Say about Terrorism? - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Jihad and Peace in Islam - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

 

[Kalam]

Hmmm. I have a fear of Islam and a persecution complex because YOU callled me a ****.

I'm forced to conclude that you have a persecution complex because you've convinced yourself that I'm lying to you because you're an infidel and that I hate you because of your gender.

You are a good little Muslim and I learn of Islam from your book and good little Muslims like you.

How childish.

It's interesting that you do not condemn these threats on cartoonists

What's the point? I condemned the Ft. Hood shooting and a pal of yours (JewHook) still insists that I voiced my support for the incident even after I linked him to my explicit condemnation. Plus, I reject the notion that I'm obligated to "condemn" something simply because the person who did it identifies himself as a Muslim.

and even blame da joos for it - 'the guy is a converted Jew".

No, the founder of the group (Joseph Cohen) is Jewish, a former rabbi-in-training and Israeli settler. The one who issued the threat is some person named Zachary Chesser. Overzealous converts.

 

[GHook93]

Come on Kalam,

You can try to blame everything on a Jewish convert if you want, but your following no one. There have been many more Muslims calling a Fatwa on Southpark. And how quickly you forget the Danish cartoon protests. Heck people died because of that.

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that this blog is representative of 1.5 billion people? "Abu Talhah al Amrikee" (Zachary A. Chesser) and the head of the group, "Yusuf Khattab" (Joseph Cohen, former Jewish extremist/Israeli settler,) are overzealous converts who are given a voice by bigoted morons like you. Go back to lighting your farts on fire or whatever it is that you dipshits do while waiting for an excuse to vilify Muslims.

 

[Kalam]

You're a troll, and a bad one at that. Don't use insults you can't spell, by the way. It's "medieval."

No my camel sniffing murder supporting primative fucktard, I am no 'troll,' but its a good bet ol Mo was, wasn't he busy fucking a 10 year old he called his 'wife?'

That's a pretty trollish digression for someone claiming not to be a troll.

 

[Kalam]

Come on Kalam,

You can try to blame everything on a Jewish convert if you want, but your following no one. There have been many more Muslims calling a Fatwa on Southpark. And how quickly you forget the Danish cartoon protests. Heck people died because of that.

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that this blog is representative of 1.5 billion people? "Abu Talhah al Amrikee" (Zachary A. Chesser) and the head of the group, "Yusuf Khattab" (Joseph Cohen, former Jewish extremist/Israeli settler,) are overzealous converts who are given a voice by bigoted morons like you. Go back to lighting your farts on fire or whatever it is that you dipshits do while waiting for an excuse to vilify Muslims.

Please link me to any and all fataawa that call for the death of people involved with the South Park episode. You may want to be sure that you know what a fatwa is before doing so, because most of you sure as hell don't.

 

[Xenophon]

You're a troll, and a bad one at that. Don't use insults you can't spell, by the way. It's "medieval."

No my camel sniffing murder supporting primative fucktard, I am no 'troll,' but its a good bet ol Mo was, wasn't he busy fucking a 10 year old he called his 'wife?'

That's a pretty trollish digression for someone claiming not to be a troll.

If you have a problem with it, I'm sure you can just riot and kill a few innocent people, which is the standard response of Muslims.

 

[Si modo]

Hmmm. I have a fear of Islam and a persecution complex because YOU callled me a ****.

I'm forced to conclude that you have a persecution complex because you've convinced yourself that I'm lying to you because you're an infidel and that I hate you because of your gender.
....

"[You] are forced". Like the good little Muslim that you are, you cannot even take responsibility for your own thoughts.

....

It's interesting that you do not condemn these threats on cartoonists

What's the point? I condemned the Ft. Hood shooting and a pal of yours (JewHook) still insists that I voiced my support for the incident even after I linked him to my explicit condemnation. Plus, I reject the notion that I'm obligated to "condemn" something simply because the person who did it identifies himself as a Muslim.
....

LMFAO! I have no idea who 'JewHook' is or what S/HE has to do with MY pointing out that you cannot even condemn, yet more, Muslims from wanting CARTOONISTS dead.

Idiot.

 

[Si modo]

Yeah, those Muslims are seriously retarded. Check this out:

Mickey Mouse must die, says Saudi Arabian cleric
Mickey Mouse is a corrupting influence and must die, a Muslim cleric has declared.


By Martin Beckford, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Published: 4:01PM BST 15 Sep 2008
Mickey Mouse must die, says Saudi Arabian cleric
Sheikh Muhammad Munajid warned that depictions of the creature in cartoons such as Disney's Mickey Mouse, had taught children that it was in fact loveable Photo: Reuters

Sheikh Muhammad Munajid claimed the mouse is "one of Satan's soldiers" and makes everything it touches impure.

But he warned that depictions of the creature in cartoons such as Tom and Jerry, and Disney's Mickey Mouse, had taught children that it was in fact loveable.

The cleric, a former diplomat at the Saudi embassy in Washington DC, said that under Sharia, both household mice and their cartoon counterparts must be killed.

....

Mickey Mouse must die, says Saudi Arabian cleric - Telegraph

JIHAD!

 

[Samson]

I agree with your third point. But Islam doesn't offer much in defence (or better, prevention) when it is accused of being a religion that encourages death threats. Maybe I'm wrong? Please show me how ignorant I am: Quote Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

I don't think it would prove anything.

Here are a few fataawa from various Sunni scholars anyway:
Slaying American Civilians in Iraq - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Fight Ethics Between Islam and Zionism - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
War Ethics in Islam - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
What Does Islam Say about Terrorism? - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Jihad and Peace in Islam - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

Let's just take your first example first:

a prominent Azharite scholar, Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, states:

I condemn in the name of Islam and its laws that any captive be beheaded or humiliated in any way. I do not justify the reaction of the Iraqi individuals concerning beheading the American civilians. If this can be substantiated beyond all doubt, they would be quite wrong,

but I want to say that worse than what they allegedly did is what the Americans have done (and are still doing) in Iraq.

...... considering the motives that led those Iraqi individuals to react in this way, blame is to be placed on the initial actions of the Americans.

Read more: Slaying American Civilians in Iraq - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

This is NOT an example of Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

It IS an example that appears quite typical, of Islamic leaders qualifying not just violence, but savagery.

Could we possibly imagine the Pope, or the President of the USA declaring that, although they interpret the Christian Bible as clearly saying that BEHEADING MUSLIM PRISONERS is a BAD THING, blame is to be placed on the initial actions of Islam?

 

[Kalam]

Let's just take your first example first:

This is NOT an example of Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

It IS an example that appears quite typical, of Islamic leaders qualifying not just violence, but savagery.

Could we possibly imagine the Pope, or the President of the USA declaring that, although they interpret the Christian Bible as clearly saying that BEHEADING MUSLIM PRISONERS is a BAD THING, blame is to be placed on the initial actions of Islam?

Which Christian nation did mujahideen recently invade and occupy? If you're looking for condemnations of violence against civilians, you'll find plenty. If you're looking for groveling blanket condemnations of all violence against invaders, you'll be hard pressed to find anything. Almost all notable 'ulema regard the invasion of Iraq as a gross injustice and see resistance as not only a right, but an obligation. The site that I linked you to represents mainstream Islamist thought in the Middle East, so take it for what it is, I guess.

 

[Kalam]

"[You] are forced". Like the good little Muslim that you are, you cannot even take responsibility for your own thoughts.

It's a figure of speech, as I'm sure you know. Because I don't think that you're stupid enough to believe what you posted, I'm also forced to conclude that you're being a troll.

LMFAO! I have no idea who 'JewHook' is or what S/HE has to do with MY pointing out that you cannot even condemn, yet more, Muslims from wanting CARTOONISTS dead.

Sure you do; you two are friends. The guy who wrote the threat has been a Muslim for less than a year, so it's relatively clear that he has no clue what he's talking about, yet people like you hold the entire religion responsible for what a single, un-influential person typed in a blog post. This entire incident is beyond ridiculous.

Idiot.

Good lord, you're a whiney one.

 

[Kalam]

JIHAD!

Like you, Muhammad Saleh al-Munajid tends to be a trollish dingbat. You two would be best friends if you didn't hate Muslims and he didn't hate kuffar. Incidentally, the picture you posted is of Jerry, not Mickey Mouse.

 

[Samson]

Let's just take your first example first:

This is NOT an example of Islamic leaders who have condemned violence.

It IS an example that appears quite typical, of Islamic leaders qualifying not just violence, but savagery.

Could we possibly imagine the Pope, or the President of the USA declaring that, although they interpret the Christian Bible as clearly saying that BEHEADING MUSLIM PRISONERS is a BAD THING, blame is to be placed on the initial actions of Islam?

Which Christian nation did mujahideen recently invade and occupy? If you're looking for condemnations of violence against civilians, you'll find plenty. If you're looking for groveling blanket condemnations of all violence against invaders, you'll be hard pressed to find anything. Almost all notable 'ulema regard the invasion of Iraq as a gross injustice and see resistance as not only a right, but an obligation. The site that I linked you to represents mainstream Islamist thought in the Middle East, so take it for what it is, I guess.

This is too goo a point to be buried in this thread, so I've begun a seperate one

 

[Si modo]

JIHAD!

Like you, Muhammad Saleh al-Munajid tends to be a trollish dingbat. You two would be best friends if you didn't hate Muslims and he didn't hate kuffar. Incidentally, the picture you posted is of Jerry, not Mickey Mouse.

Liar. No surprise. I don't hate Muslims. It's a waste of time to hate primitives.

And, you are an idiot who can't be bothered to read the words in front of him. The Saudi said both Mickey and Jerrry are "soldiers of Satan". Read the words in front of you. Idiot.

 

[Kalam]

Liar. No surprise. I don't hate Muslims. It's a waste of time to hate primitives.

Thanks for the quote!

 

[Si modo]

"[You] are forced". Like the good little Muslim that you are, you cannot even take responsibility for your own thoughts.

It's a figure of speech, as I'm sure you know. Because I don't think that you're stupid enough to believe what you posted, I'm also forced to conclude that you're being a troll.

LMFAO! I have no idea who 'JewHook' is or what S/HE has to do with MY pointing out that you cannot even condemn, yet more, Muslims from wanting CARTOONISTS dead.

Sure you do; you two are friends. The guy who wrote the threat has been a Muslim for less than a year, so it's relatively clear that he has no clue what he's talking about, yet people like you hold the entire religion responsible for what a single, un-influential person typed in a blog post. This entire incident is beyond ridiculous.

Idiot.

Good lord, you're a whiney one.

Ummm ... what issues you have with another poster have nothing to do with me. Yeah, in your mind I'm 'friends' with a poster I don't even know.

Idiot.

 

[Si modo]

Damn, these primitives are sure hung up on cartoons. It's WOC - War on Cartoons.

Serious business. Jihad-worthy, of course.