Being a serious country

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by ekrem, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Avidgor Lieberman's deputy chairman as Foreign Minister Ayalon summoned the Turkish Ambassador to the Knesset.

    During the meeting, Celikkol was seated in a low sofa, and facing him, in higher chairs, were Ayalon and two other officials - an arrangement carried out on the orders of Ayalon's superior, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman.
    A photo-op was held at the start of the meeting, during which Ayalon told the photographers in Hebrew: "Pay attention that he is sitting in a
    lower chair and we are in the higher ones, that there is only an Israeli flag on the table and that we are not smiling."

    Turkish official: Top Israel diplomats behaved like 'adolescents' - Haaretz - Israel News

    Turkish ambassador tells MK El-Sana he may leave Israel
    Turkey's ambassador to Israel, Ahmet Oguz Celikkol, told MK Talab El-Sana (United Arab List-Ta'al) he is scheduled to return to Turkey for consultation regarding the most recent diplomatic incidents, and that he may not return.
    Turkish ambassador tells MK El-Sana he may leave Israel - Israel News, Ynetnews

    Also on Sunday the Israelian Defence MInister Ehud Barak is going to visit. As Turkish press said, bot the Turkish Prime Minister and President will not meet Barak.
     
  2. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    "We're waiting for an apology from the Israeli side very soon," a Turkish official told Levy [ISRAELIAN AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY] . "If there won't be an apology, we will respond with diplomatic steps of our own."
    (...)
    "It would be worthwhile for Israel to know its boundaries and to not dare cross them," a Turkish official said.

    Turkey demands Israel apology, threatens 'steps' - Haaretz - Israel News
     
  3. The Rabbi
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    The Rabbi Diamond Member

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    What are Israel's boundaries in its own Knesset?
     
  4. Baruch Menachem
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    Baruch Menachem '

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    If that is true, that is beyond stupid and petty. You don't ever treat a guest like that. I think given middle eastern norms, this was especially offensive.

    And this is even weirder because Israel and Turkey are usually good friends. The Israeli air force does much of its training up there.

    someone in Israel needs to kiss some serious ass.
     
  5. Kalam
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    Kalam Senior Member

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    :lol:

    Oh Zionists, making your chairs higher only means that you'll fall farther when we push you off of them.
     
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  6. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Maybe the Iranians thought the same way back then when they stormed the US embassy.
    Saw a while ago a documentary about that US embassy incident from German state television, somewhere in the end a US representative of that time saying that Iran lost credibility as a state within the world community with such a incident.

    This current incident is off course not of dramatic dimension but the disrespecting of credibility in IR did happen. Intentionally. Read exactly the Hebrew advise to Israelian press.

    Welcome to the Axis of Evil.
    Besides that you can do whatever you want in your parliament.
     
  7. Baruch Menachem
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    Baruch Menachem '

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    I can see from the article why the Government of Israel was upset, but this kind of Kindergarten behavior in response is out of line.

    The problem has sort of been resolved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
  8. toomuchtime_
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    toomuchtime_ Gold Member

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    Israel and Turkey used to be be allies, but this Erdogan government in Turkey has realigned Turkey's interests away from the west and Israel and into line with the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas axis. In a recent interview with Charlie Rose, Erdogan stated that he no longer believed the EU was going to allow Turkey to be a part of Europe and he openly defended Iran's efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Clearly, Turkey cannot be considered an ally or even a neutral country so long as this Turkish government or one like it remains in power. In fact, as long as Erdogan continues to defend the Iranian government's efforts to develop nuclear weapons, how can Turkey be taken seriously as an ally by the US or EU or even by NATO?

    While on a personal level the insult to the Turkish ambassador is regrettable, the intent was clearly to deliver an unequivocal message to the government he represents that it has earned the contempt of the Israeli government: this is not a game changer, it is simply an acknowledgment of the situation Erdogan has created.

    And this is probably not the end of Israel's actions. The Israeli government suddenly announced it might not renew the mandate for a team of international observers in Hebron that includes representatives of the Turkish government. Turkey's relevance to the Arab-Israeli conflict and peace efforts has until now been entirely based on its former good relations with Israel, but Erdogan's behavior has now disqualified Turkey as a possible mediator in peace talks with Syria or as a part of any international team of peacekeepers or observers in the area. Erdogan's ill considered actions intended to make Turkey a major player in the region have served to make Turkey irrelevant.
     
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  9. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    Turkish Prime Minister demands full state apology from Israel. Israeli Foreign MInistry publishing Internet statement
    Deputy FM Ayalon apologizes to Turkish ambassador - Haaretz - Israel News
    on Israelian government site is not enough for Turkey.
    Watch euronews 1:30 Minutes video:
    Turkey demands apology from Israel over snub - Diplomacy : news, world | euronews

    Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon implied he was wrong in trying to use the media to snub Ankara, but Turkey is demanding a full public apology.
    Turkey Keeps Ayalon Crisis on Front Burner - Defense/Middle East - Israel News - Israel National News

    to _toomuchtime:
    Can you please provide source for any Turkish government official claiming Iran has right for developing nuclear weapons? There is no such claim, demand or support. So please provide source.

    Other then that you say you believe that this probably was not the last action by Israel taken against Turkey. I do think noone in Turkey is being afraid of possible moves taken by Israel against Turkey, maybe some people in Turkey exactly want this, who knows?
    What are Israel's options against Turkey besides humilating Turkish Officials on Israelian soil?
    The real options Israel has is recognizing the so-called Armenian genocide or arming Anti-Turkish terrorists. US presidential candidates rallying through California's Armenian community singing the Armenian genocide song, but once elected singing the opposite Turkish song.
    Arming Anti-Turkish terrorists is also no option, as we would then arm Lebanon and Syria at a much more sustainable and long-lasting rate rate due to our budget and industrial output.
    Just some none far-thinking rascist fuck called Lieberman marking the great man in relative protection within Israelian territory messing around with foreign diplomats for political gains. This is no big heroic act.


    For you this only about the "bad Islamist", for the rest of the world it is seeing Turkish state Policy of distancing itself from the only problem for regional peace: Israel.
    Just think of Turkey being a business company, why keeping preferential relations with a war-criminal side A (Israel) at the expense of your business with B, C, D, E ?
    While we are trying to increase our trade volume with having good neighbour-relations with every neighbour country bringing former vilayets through soft-power nearer to Turkey, we should say "Stop there" for some of them too when they are war-criminaling around.
    This is Turk's century again in the region, Israel better be quiet not messing around with the Turk.
     
  10. ekrem
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    ekrem VIP Member

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    A good geo-political article about the region from the Asia Times.




    Turkey embraces role as Arab 'big brother'
    By Sami Moubayed

    DAMASCUS - After the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power in Ankara, many in the West referred to a new Turkish foreign policy called "neo-Ottomanism", suggesting a revival of the intellectual, political and social influence of the Ottoman Empire, which departed the scene 92 years ago.

    That policy was attributed to Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his advisor, now foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu. Quickly, however, the term "Ottomanism" began to fade, given that it was difficult to market in countries formerly controlled by


    the Ottoman Empire due to continued indoctrination against Ottomanism by the Arabs over nine decades.

    Some, however, continued to stand by the term, including Cuneyt Zapsu, an advisor to the Turkish prime minister, who said: "A new, positive role for Turkey in the world requires a reconciliation with its own past, the overcoming of societal taboos, and a positive new concept of Turkish identity. We are the Ottomans' successors and should not be ashamed of this."

    Decision-makers in Turkey had once tried to hide their Ottoman past, ashamed of it during the heyday of Kemal Ataturk because it looked backward and was too Islamic for the secular state that was being carefully erected in Turkey. That is now a thing of the past thanks to the steady policy of the AKP, which has been opening up to countries such as Syria and, more recently, Lebanon.

    Many wrongly interpreted Erdogan's policy towards the Arab world, now entering its seventh year, as purely a Syrian-Turkish alliance. By nature of his new orientation, Erdogan is striving to restore Turkey to its rightful place amongst Arab and Muslim nations, and that by no means stops at the gates of Damascus. It is a policy that embraces Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.

    During the past few years, Turkey has sponsored indirect talks between Syria and Israel, tried to hammer out solutions between Fatah and Hamas in Palestine, and worked on mending broken fences between Damascus and Baghdad after relations soured last August.

    Turkey has permanently stood as a mediator between Iran and the Arab world and has worked hard to help embrace non-state players like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas, whose leadership it received in Ankara in 2004, despite public outcry from the United States.

    Additionally, it has tried to flex its muscle within the complex world of Iraqi politics, calling on Sunni leaders to take part in the political process that was started after the 2003 downfall of Saddam Hussein. Big brother Turkey, after all, had mediated in similar waters at the turn of the 20th century and apparently still knows the region, its people and their plight only too well, and still feels best suited to solve existing conflict within it.

    This week, Erdogan received Lebanese Prime Minister Saad al-Hariri in a groundbreaking visit to Turkey, adding yet another link to the long chain of alliances that Erdogan is carefully creating for the Turkish republic.

    Among other things, the two countries agreed to increase technical and scientific cooperation in military affairs and lift visa requirements between Lebanon and Turkey. At first glance, this will boost tourism and people-to-people contact between Beirut and Ankara.

    According to official numbers, 50,794 Lebanese tourists went to Turkey in 2008 - an increase of 18,000 from 2007 and large when compared with the number, not more than a few hundred, of Turkish tourists who streamed into Beirut.

    It will certainly affect bilateral trade, which stood at US$225 million in 2002 and now stands at $900 million. It also means that Turkey has now lifted visa requirements with six Arab countries, the others being Libya, Morocco, Tunis, Jordan and Syria.

    Erdogan best explained it by saying that a "regional Schengen" system, similar to the agreement signed between European countries in Luxemburg in 1985, has now gone into effect in the region, removing systematic border control between these countries - making them closer to how they had been under the Ottoman Empire. When Iraq normalizes, he added, it, too, could join the regional "Schengen" system.

    Clearly from all the optimism shown by Erdogan for the Hariri visit, cooperation between Turkey and Lebanon will not end there. The Turkish premier, after all, has visited Beirut twice, in 2007 and in 2008, and was the most senior foreign guest attending the inauguration of Lebanese President Michel Suleiman.

    During the Israeli war of 2006, he firmly stood by the Lebanese, and in its immediate aftermath, sent 600 Turkish troops to take part in peacekeeping on the Lebanese-Israeli border by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon. Erdogan saw to it that $50 million worth of aid was given to reconstruct southern Lebanon, along with building 41 schools, five parks and a rehabilitation center worth $20 million.

    Politically, Lebanon and Turkey are now colleagues in rotating positions at the UN Security Council, and this is where real political cooperation will materialize in the months to come. Turkey's heavyweight influence will come in handy as Lebanon tries to waiver Security Council resolution 1559, which called on the Syrians to withdraw from Lebanon and stipulates the disarmament of non-state players, including Hezbollah.

    In as much as the Hariri team once called for implementing 1559 in 2005-2009, they would now prefer that it disappears, given that, far from being an adversary, Hezbollah is now a Hariri ally, strongly represented in both parliament and the Hariri cabinet.

    The Lebanese government recently claimed that the resolution should be canceled, saying that all of its clauses had been fulfilled, noting that Hezbollah was a part of the Lebanese state and defense system and not merely a non-state player or a militia, as many in the West claim it to be.

    That argument, which saves both Hezbollah and Hariri the burden of having to deal with 1559, was put forth last December by Hariri's new Foreign Minister Ali al-Shami, an appointee of the Hezbollah-led team in the Hariri cabinet.

    When speaking at a press conference with Erdogan, Hariri noted that not a single day passed where the Israeli Defense Forces did not infringe on Lebanese waters or airspace, claiming that this was a legal breach of UN resolution 1701, which was passed after the war of 2006.

    Erdogan nodded, saying that Israel had breached "no less than 100" resolutions in recent years, adding: "This requires serious reforms at the United Nations. We do not support Israel's position and will not remain silent."

    Having Turkey on Lebanon's side will be a great boost for Hezbollah, which is preparing for a possible new round of confrontation with Israel in summer this year. From Ankara, Hariri came to Hezbollah's defense, telling reporters, "Terrorism is not when one defends one's land - the opposite is correct," thus supporting Hezbollah's war against Israel until the Sheba Farms are liberated from Israeli occupation.

    This fits in nicely with the barrage of criticism that Erdogan has been firing against Israel for the past year, started in January 2009 when, speaking at Davos right after the Gaza war, he told Israeli President Shimon Peres: "President Peres, you are old, and your voice is loud out of a guilty conscience. When it comes to killing, you know very well how to kill. I know well how you hit and kill children on beaches."

    Erdogan, in the weeks to come, will help further normalize Syrian-Lebanese relations, saying that he advised his "friend" President Bashar al-Assad to reciprocate Hariri's visit by paying a visit of his own to Beirut. He will further work with Syria and Lebanon to see to it that Hezbollah is sheltered from another Israeli war, and try to pressure Israel to return to the negotiating table to lift the siege on Gaza and restore the occupied Golan Heights to Syria.

    Best mirroring Erdogan's new policy is that, despite the new and firm relationship with the Arabs, he has not wasted his country's historical relationship with Israel. Although critical, his embassy remains open in Tel Aviv, and he is preparing to receive Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak in Ankara in late January.

    Only by being able to talk to all parties will the Turks achieve the security and normalcy they aspire to in the Middle East. While Israel is not pleased with Erdogan's new policy, claiming that he has clearly taken sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Arabs are thrilled that the Turkish giant has emerged and, unlike the case since 1918, is now clearly on their side in the battlefront.

    He has reminded the Arabs that despite a very rough period in bilateral relations during World War I, the Ottoman legacy in the Arab world was not all bad, and not all autocratic. Why? Because by defending Syria, Lebanon and Palestine, Erdogan feels that he is also defending Turkey, seeing all four countries as one, given their geographic, historical, social, religious and cultural proximity.

    Many of the finest buildings in Damascus and Beirut, after all, were constructed during the Ottoman era. So were many of the codes, laws of commerce and aspects of civil administration, which lasted well into the 20th century. The Ottoman influence on Arab language, heritage, music, heritage and cuisine, cannot be ignored, despite years of trying to write off anything Ottoman as being destructive to Arab culture.

    Although the Ottomans struck with an iron fist at the Arabs working with Great Britain against them during the Great War, they also - very symbolically - refused to sell land in Ottoman Palestine to the Zionists during the reign of Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II. It is that part of Ottoman history that Erdogan wants the Arabs to remember, not the hangman's noose that was erected by the Ottoman governor of Syria, Jamal Pasha, in the central squares in Beirut and Damascus in 1915-1916.

    When the republics were young in Lebanon, Turkey and Syria, Turkish and Arab nationalism stood in the way of a clear appreciation of history, leading to nothing but bad blood between Arabs and Turks. That era is now hopefully gone - never to return - thanks to the efforts of Erdogan, referred to, very symbolically, by Hariri as "Big Brother" during his Ankara visit.
    Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs



    In Topkapi Palace besides the other treasures is still located
    - Prophet Mohammed's black woolen mantle
    - Prophet Mohammed's bow
    - Prophet Mohammed's two swords
    - Prophet Mohammed's footprint
    - Prophet Mohammed's seal.
    - the door of the Great Mosque of Mecca
    Center of Ottoman Power - NYTimes.com

    Also not mentioned in NYTimes Article for example the
    - beard shaved after Prophet Mohammed's death
    - teeth of Prophet Mohammed
    - soil from Prophet Mohammed's tomb
    ...

    The Topkapi Palace is loaded with lots of other stuff related to Islam and Turks, too.
    Besides greatness of Istanbul Topkapi Palace alone should be worth a visit.

    Topkapi Palace in 360 degree 3D tour:
    Topkapı Sarayı - Harem Dairesi Sanal Tur Uygulaması
    Topkapý Palace - 3D Virtual Tour

    Limited pictures of collection from Bilkent University:
    http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapi.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010

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