Atheist group sues over cross at 9/11 memorial

[Si modo]

First, let me just spit out all the words that folks keep putting in my mouth.

I guess you missed the part of my quote where I said it was fine with me if others erected their own symbol, therefore, there would be no favortism shown. Just find a means of doing so without the fuss and lawsuits. Why does every damn issue have to be settled in court? Seek permission to erect your own symbol/recognition of your faith/spirituality or lack thereof. And...if as result of this lawsuit the symbol isn't allowed to be displayed at all, then indeed, one groups rights would thereby be trampled upon.

The Occam's Razor solution.

Too bad they rarely happen when the authorities are involved.

From what I understand they did try to resolve the issue without the lawsuit. They asked to erect some kind of symbol to honor those that died that were atheists and were refused.

They have also stated that they will drop the suit if symbols from all the religions of those that died are included.

Do you have a link of some sort to that? That would be good to know in this thread.

 

[Ravi]

The Occam's Razor solution.

Too bad they rarely happen when the authorities are involved.

From what I understand they did try to resolve the issue without the lawsuit. They asked to erect some kind of symbol to honor those that died that were atheists and were refused.

They have also stated that they will drop the suit if symbols from all the religions of those that died are included.

Do you have a link of some sort to that? That would be good to know in this thread.

Atheists Sue Over Cross in World Trade Center Museum - ABC News

 

[Ravi]

Something that was lost in this story is what this 'cross' really stands for.
I was in NYC last year and had the opportunity to actually see the cross while it was still in the church yard.

On that cross are spray painted written memorials to those that lost their lives on 9/11. Fireman, Policeman etc. It is a tribute, that just so happens to be in the shape of a cross. It is not considered a religious symbol.

I will see if I can find the photos that I took of it, although they will not be great ones since they were taken at night.

The cross is a religious symbol.

While I understand the pleasure of showcasing it as a stick in the eye to the terrorists I also think a better stick in the eye to the terrorists would be including all the religious symbols of those who were murdered.

They attacked America, not Christians in particular. We should honor everyone that was attacked.

 

[Si modo]

From what I understand they did try to resolve the issue without the lawsuit. They asked to erect some kind of symbol to honor those that died that were atheists and were refused.

They have also stated that they will drop the suit if symbols from all the religions of those that died are included.

Do you have a link of some sort to that? That would be good to know in this thread.

Atheists Sue Over Cross in World Trade Center Museum - ABC News

Thanks, rav.

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

Silverman said that if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials of equal size and prominence to be displayed in the museum, the group would "happily, happily, drop the case."​

So, the memorial organization should do exactly that. It seems like they are doing exactly that. They just haven't answered the atheists request to display a flag.

I don't see how any of these requests are an issue to the memorial organization. I hope they aren't and won't be.

These are perfectly rational requests.





But, then a person from the atheist organization said this: "But Jane Everhart the communications director for the New York chapter of American Atheists who said she was traumatized by the events of 9/11, said that she would not be able to visit the Memorial Museum as long as the cross is included in exhibit. "

That's just as irrational, IMO.

 

[Article 15]

This is even more retarded than trying to stop a mosque from being built close to Ground Zero.

 

[Toome]

If this was a protest from people of other religious faiths who want to point out that it wasn't just Christians who died in the towers, then I'd understand the lawsuit and applaud it as the fair and decent thing to do. However, these are atheists! They don't believe in God. In other words, if a Christian sees a cross, it means something. To an atheist, it supposedly means nothing other than the intersection of two straight linear objects.

So why the hell are they so offended?

What if it was presented as artistic expression? In other words, it is what it is to the beholder, subject to individual interpretation and nothing more than that. To some, it's a coincidence that these two pieces happened to form the shape of the cross, and to others it may have a deeper meaning.

I just don't get these atheists who get their panties in a wad. Are the afraid they might accidentally find themselves believing?

By the way, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is some supreme being or not. But it doesn't bother me if there are those who do believe or those who do not. We'll all find out one way or the other when we cash in our chips at the end of the night.

 

[Si modo]

If this was a protest from people of other religious faiths who want to point out that it wasn't just Christians who died in the towers, then I'd understand the lawsuit and applaud it as the fair and decent thing to do. However, these are atheists! They don't believe in God. In other words, if a Christian sees a cross, it means something. To an atheist, it supposedly means nothing other than the intersection of two straight linear objects.

So why the hell are they so offended?

What if it was presented as artistic expression? In other words, it is what it is to the beholder, subject to individual interpretation and nothing more than that. To some, it's a coincidence that these two pieces happened to form the shape of the cross, and to others it may have a deeper meaning.

I just don't get these atheists who get their panties in a wad. Are the afraid they might accidentally find themselves believing?

By the way, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is some supreme being or not. But it doesn't bother me if there are those who do believe or those who do not. We'll all find out one way or the other when we cash in our chips at the end of the night.

They are asking for equal time and space, it seems (but then that comment from the PR person contradicts their other stances on this). I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[lilbug]

I would suggest they do away with all the religious symbols and erect something that depicts all Americans...such as the US flag, but I'd be willing to bet some flag-burning moron would object, or some family members would insist that every flag of every nationality be represented....and that is the slippery slope of trying to appease everyone....you cannot.

All of this political correctness has made us a country divided and the direction all of this is taking us is everyone's freedom of expression, freedom to honor anyone is going to be slowly chipped away at until no one is honored at all for anything for fear of offending someone and lawsuits.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
— Abraham Lincoln

 

[Si modo]

I would suggest they do away with all the religious symbols and erect something that depicts all Americans...such as the US flag, but I'd be willing to bet some flag-burning moron would object, or some family members would insist that every flag of every nationality be represented....and that is the slippery slope of trying to appease everyone....you cannot.

All of this political correctness has made us a country divided and the direction all of this is taking us is everyone's freedom of expression, freedom to honor anyone is going to be slowly chipped away at until no one is honored at all for anything for fear of offending someone and lawsuits.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
— Abraham Lincoln

The atheists seem to want a flag for them. Good.

But, apparently they are not asking that the cross be taken out, just equal space and time.

Then there is that quote from their PR person which contradicts what they say at other times.

So, I am not really sure what the atheist group is asking for.

 

[lilbug]

I would suggest they do away with all the religious symbols and erect something that depicts all Americans...such as the US flag, but I'd be willing to bet some flag-burning moron would object, or some family members would insist that every flag of every nationality be represented....and that is the slippery slope of trying to appease everyone....you cannot.

All of this political correctness has made us a country divided and the direction all of this is taking us is everyone's freedom of expression, freedom to honor anyone is going to be slowly chipped away at until no one is honored at all for anything for fear of offending someone and lawsuits.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
— Abraham Lincoln

The atheists seem to want a flag for them. Good.

But, apparently they are not asking that the cross be taken out, just equal space and time.

Then there is that quote from their PR person which contradicts what they say at other times.

So, I am not really sure what the atheist group is asking for.

My guess is their agenda is to omit all religious symbols.

 

[Si modo]

I would suggest they do away with all the religious symbols and erect something that depicts all Americans...such as the US flag, but I'd be willing to bet some flag-burning moron would object, or some family members would insist that every flag of every nationality be represented....and that is the slippery slope of trying to appease everyone....you cannot.

All of this political correctness has made us a country divided and the direction all of this is taking us is everyone's freedom of expression, freedom to honor anyone is going to be slowly chipped away at until no one is honored at all for anything for fear of offending someone and lawsuits.

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
— Abraham Lincoln

The atheists seem to want a flag for them. Good.

But, apparently they are not asking that the cross be taken out, just equal space and time.

Then there is that quote from their PR person which contradicts what they say at other times.

So, I am not really sure what the atheist group is asking for.

My guess is their agenda it is to omit all religious symbols.

It really is hard to tell from the article. I blame the journalist for not clarifying, to be honest.

 

[lilbug]

The atheists seem to want a flag for them. Good.

But, apparently they are not asking that the cross be taken out, just equal space and time.

Then there is that quote from their PR person which contradicts what they say at other times.

So, I am not really sure what the atheist group is asking for.

My guess is their agenda it is to omit all religious symbols.

It really is hard to tell from the article. I blame the journalist for not clarifying, to be honest.

Yeah, find that often true in many of the stories posted here. Poor, incomplete or jaded journalism.

 

[mudwhistle]

According to the article, there are also some Jews and a Lutheran that are upset about it.

Why not just put the symbol for the religion of each person that died instead of being so divisive?

Lutherans are Christians too.

I'm just saying.

 

[mudwhistle]

This is even more retarded than trying to stop a mosque from being built close to Ground Zero.

Yeah. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[Toome]

If this was a protest from people of other religious faiths who want to point out that it wasn't just Christians who died in the towers, then I'd understand the lawsuit and applaud it as the fair and decent thing to do. However, these are atheists! They don't believe in God. In other words, if a Christian sees a cross, it means something. To an atheist, it supposedly means nothing other than the intersection of two straight linear objects.

So why the hell are they so offended?

What if it was presented as artistic expression? In other words, it is what it is to the beholder, subject to individual interpretation and nothing more than that. To some, it's a coincidence that these two pieces happened to form the shape of the cross, and to others it may have a deeper meaning.

I just don't get these atheists who get their panties in a wad. Are the afraid they might accidentally find themselves believing?

By the way, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is some supreme being or not. But it doesn't bother me if there are those who do believe or those who do not. We'll all find out one way or the other when we cash in our chips at the end of the night.

They are asking for equal time and space, it seems (but then that comment from the PR person contradicts their other stances on this). I see nothing wrong with that.

Actually, they want to push their own agenda and deny others. The iron cross is an authentic artifact found in the wreckage. It hasn't been altered one bit. About the only thing that has been done to it is that some priest mumbled some words over it which may have meaning for some and nothing for others. Point is that it is an authentic artifact, and the whole point of the museum is to put these sort of things on display.

The atheists want to insert their own symbol. This symbol, whatever it may be, is not something found in the wreckage. There is a Star of David that is going to also be put on display, but it has been formed from steel that was found in the wreckage. The atheists' symbol is not made out of anything found in the wreckage.

Again, the whole contradiction here is that atheists supposedly do not attach any meaning to any symbols. So why get their panties in a wad over this?

 

[L.K.Eder]

If this was a protest from people of other religious faiths who want to point out that it wasn't just Christians who died in the towers, then I'd understand the lawsuit and applaud it as the fair and decent thing to do. However, these are atheists! They don't believe in God. In other words, if a Christian sees a cross, it means something. To an atheist, it supposedly means nothing other than the intersection of two straight linear objects.

So why the hell are they so offended?

What if it was presented as artistic expression? In other words, it is what it is to the beholder, subject to individual interpretation and nothing more than that. To some, it's a coincidence that these two pieces happened to form the shape of the cross, and to others it may have a deeper meaning.

I just don't get these atheists who get their panties in a wad. Are the afraid they might accidentally find themselves believing?

By the way, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is some supreme being or not. But it doesn't bother me if there are those who do believe or those who do not. We'll all find out one way or the other when we cash in our chips at the end of the night.

They are asking for equal time and space, it seems (but then that comment from the PR person contradicts their other stances on this). I see nothing wrong with that.

Actually, they want to push their own agenda and deny others. The iron cross is an authentic artifact found in the wreckage. It hasn't been altered one bit. About the only thing that has been done to it is that some priest mumbled some words over it which may have meaning for some and nothing for others. Point is that it is an authentic artifact, and the whole point of the museum is to put these sort of things on display.

The atheists want to insert their own symbol. This symbol, whatever it may be, is not something found in the wreckage. There is a Star of David that is going to also be put on display, but it has been formed from steel that was found in the wreckage. The atheists' symbol is not made out of anything found in the wreckage.

Again, the whole contradiction here is that atheists supposedly do not attach any meaning to any symbols. So why get their panties in a wad over this?

i bet there are a lot of crescent shaped wreckage parts.

 

[MeBelle]

grrr, how do I attach a photo?


Since I have not learned the art of attaching a photo to a post yet, I made an album.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/members/mebelle60-albums-9-11-cross.html

Hopefully people will take a closer look at wtf it says it means and get off the religious artifact!!

 

[WillowTree]

According to the article, there are also some Jews and a Lutheran that are upset about it.

Why not just put the symbol for the religion of each person that died instead of being so divisive?

typical communist to see being a Christian as divisive!

 

[yidnar]

Why does every damn issue have to be settled in court?

As opposed to where else?

The issue isn’t lawsuits but the apparent ignorance of Constitutional law on the part of various jurisdictions.

It’s very simple: if you don’t want lawsuits don’t establish religious symbols in public venues, or as in this case publicly funded venues.

How is allowing this cross in a memorial showing favoritism? Is the government forcing someone to worship by it when they walk by? Are they forcing them to pay a tithe when they view it?

It has nothing to do with favoritism or forcing people to worship, it’s an issue of conforming to established Constitutional case law with regard to religious symbols in public venues, where there is a possible Establishment Clause violation. Every American has the right to challenge such a possible violation in court. And again: if you don’t want lawsuits, don’t establish religious symbols in public venues.

This country has become so political correct to the point its ridiculous. Cant say Merry Christmas because it might offend another religious group but its ok when they have their religious holidays.
Why cant they have the cross. If your offended by it dont look at it at the memorial. If it makes the families of the 9/11 feel better to have the cross let them have it. That is who matters in this memorial. The friends and families who lost a love one or the people who worked in the world trade center. People are to sensitive or they are just wanting to stir the pot. I do not get offended on others religion unless they try to shove it down my throats in words not by symbols.

This has nothing to do with ‘political correctness,’ no one is restricted from any kind of religious expression. Just keep it out of the pubic venues where it doesn’t belong. Very simple.

ok the constitutional right left wing perspective.do you support the death penalty??

 

[Dude111]

You gotta be fucking kidding me!

Nope the article ISNT KIDDING YOU!!

Nothing surprises me anymore.........