Assault on Waco

[Oddball]

The cranks sure love them some straight up murder of innocents, as long as the killers carry that (D) by their names.

 

[jillian]

You should read the Danforth report. Koresh was not alone in fault...far, very far, from it.

have you ever bothered actually looking at the report?

http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf

I'll direct your attention to page 4, et seq. ... Conclusions of the Special Counsel:

The government of the United States and its agents are not responsible for the April 19, 1993, tragedy at Waco. The government:
(a) did not cause the fire; (b) did not direct gunfire at the Branch Davidian complex; and (c) did not improperly employ the armed forces of the United States. Responsibility for the tragedy of Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and
their leader, Vernon Howell, also known as David Koresh
(a) shot and killed four ATF agents on February 28, 1993, and wounded 20 others;
(b) refused to exit the complex peacefully during the 51-day standoff that followed the ATF raid despite extensive efforts and concessions by negotiators for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”);
(c) directed gunfire at FBI agents who were inserting tear gas into the complex on April 19, 1993;
(d) spread fuel throughout the main structure of the complex and ignited it in at least three places causing the fire which resulted in the deaths of those Branch Davidians not killed by their own gunfire; and
(e) killed some of their own people by gunfire, including at least five children. While the Special Counsel has concluded that the United States government is not
responsible for the tragedy at Waco on April 19, 1993, the Special Counsel states with equal certainty that an FBI agent fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds at 8:08 a.m. on April 19, 1993, at the concrete construction pit approximately 75 feet from the living quarters of the Davidian complex. The pyrotechnic tear gas rounds did not start the fire that consumed the complex four hours later.

you're welcome.

Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement." It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.

i may have seen it. i don't remember. but really, to me, what's important is that he was told ot come out. he didn't. all those people died because of him.

 

[whitehall]

The Waco debacle teaches historians a couple of things. #1 even in modern times the government can get away with atrocities as long as the mainstream media complies. #2 for all you doomsday preppers forget it. The government has all the guns.

 

[whitehall]

The Waco debacle teaches historians a couple of things. #1 even in modern times the government can get away with atrocities as long as the mainstream media complies. #2 for all you doomsday preppers forget it. The government has all the guns.

Tell the families of the four ATF agents who died that that was the case..

I don't know what to tell the families of the four ATF agents. Maybe the Clinton/Reno regime could shed light on the lack of leadership that led to the confrontation.

 

[Oddball]

The Waco debacle teaches historians a couple of things. #1 even in modern times the government can get away with atrocities as long as the mainstream media complies. #2 for all you doomsday preppers forget it. The government has all the guns.

Tell the families of the four ATF agents who died that that was the case..

I don't know what to tell the families of the four ATF agents. Maybe the Clinton/Reno regime could shed light on the lack of leadership that led to the confrontation.

I cannot comment on that, as the investigation is ongoing.

 

[westwall]

have you ever bothered actually looking at the report?

http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf

I'll direct your attention to page 4, et seq. ... Conclusions of the Special Counsel:



you're welcome.

Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement." It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.

i may have seen it. i don't remember. but really, to me, what's important is that he was told ot come out. he didn't. all those people died because of him.

Which is true. However the ATF did lie to a judge to obtain the warrant, and the warrant, of which I have a copy, lists things that are completely legal. Not one listed item in the warrant was illegal.

Koresh was a stone cold ass and I can honestly care less that he died. However 21 absolutely innocent children died because of the actions the FBI initiated on the final assault.

They need not have died.

 

[westwall]

Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement." It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.

I saw it and thought it was a pretty good doco, but found quite a few holes and biased to a degree.

Sometimes people get so caught up in their 'rights', common sense goes out the window.

If he had done what he was told, then nobody would have died. Remember, he was armed and ready; he put everybody's lives in danger. He also claimed to be God, and from all accounts - by survivors and former members - he was an egomaniac who could possibly have been a paedophile. He could have come out, and if everything had gone to shit in the govt case he would have gotten a huge pay out and people would have lost their jobs.

I don't believe for one minute he was a hold out for 'his rights". He was shit scared what the authorities were going to find out about him and what a low life piece of shit he was.

The govt fucked up for sure, but in cases like this, every action causes a reaction. The person who starts the first action (in this case Koresh), is responsible. Anything that escalates from there is on him.

If I go into a store and rob it and shoot and wound a clerk, and then a cop confronts me and shoots and wounds me, I can't bitch and moan about the cop's actions....

I found it to quite balanced and when the documentarians were interviewed it was very obvious that they had thought it was a straight up case of a loon who led his flock to disaster, but at the end they felt the government was as culpable as Koresh and that the final assault was meant to kill everyone.

They were very pro government side of the story going in, but as they investigated they switched completely to feeling the FBI intentionally killed the people inside.

 

[Oddball]

Goddmmit are you one naïve sumbitch.

It wasn't a conspiracy...It's business as usual.

 

[Oddball]

 

[Si modo]

Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement." It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.

I saw it and thought it was a pretty good doco, but found quite a few holes and biased to a degree.

Sometimes people get so caught up in their 'rights', common sense goes out the window.

If he had done what he was told, then nobody would have died. Remember, he was armed and ready; he put everybody's lives in danger. He also claimed to be God, and from all accounts - by survivors and former members - he was an egomaniac who could possibly have been a paedophile. He could have come out, and if everything had gone to shit in the govt case he would have gotten a huge pay out and people would have lost their jobs.

I don't believe for one minute he was a hold out for 'his rights". He was shit scared what the authorities were going to find out about him and what a low life piece of shit he was.

The govt fucked up for sure, but in cases like this, every action causes a reaction. The person who starts the first action (in this case Koresh), is responsible. Anything that escalates from there is on him.

If I go into a store and rob it and shoot and wound a clerk, and then a cop confronts me and shoots and wounds me, I can't bitch and moan about the cop's actions....

I found it to quite balanced and when the documentarians were interviewed it was very obvious that they had thought it was a straight up case of a loon who led his flock to disaster, but at the end they felt the government was as culpable as Koresh and that the final assault was meant to kill everyone.

They were very pro government side of the story going in, but as they investigated they switched completely to feeling the FBI intentionally killed the people inside.

And, the Danforth Report strongly hints at the same.

 

[Si modo]

really? which marshal was convicted?



Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

feel free to return to stomping around the board insulting me now.

Call me a racist or a drunk, and I'll be pleased to insult you again.

I give what I get.

no bubbalah... you get what you give.

now how about admitting you were wrong.

we'll wait.

You called me a racist, I told you to fuck off.

You called me a drunk, I called you a bitch.

I can easily link to them, or would you like to lie about that again? I think it would be cool if you did the latter, THEN I link to them.

Yes, I was wrong about saying conviction. The FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter. At least it ruined his career. Who needs that sort of shit as a federal agent?

 

[jillian]

Call me a racist or a drunk, and I'll be pleased to insult you again.

I give what I get.

no bubbalah... you get what you give.

now how about admitting you were wrong.

we'll wait.

You called me a racist, I told you to fuck off.

You called me a drunk, I called you a bitch.

I can easily link to them, or would you like to lie about that again? I think it would be cool if you did the latter, THEN I link to them.

Yes, I was wrong about saying conviction. The FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter. At least it ruined his career. Who needs that sort of shit as a federal agent?

no. you started your nonsense on other threads.... posting insulting things. calling me a moron,.... which i actually initially found surprising since we had had some very nice discussions in pm's. and i was like.. ."huh"? "did someone steal her login???"

i never called you a racist. i said you were SUPPORTING racists. that is not the same. Frankly, I don't understand how you didn't understand that thinking it's ok to celebrate Lee-Jackson day and saying that MLK Jr Day was "pandering" didn't make you look very good.

i said 'don't drink and post' because you sounded irrational. i never called you a 'drunk'. there is a difference between being a drunk and having a few drinks.

you're also still misrepresenting the special prosecutor's report.... the conclusion drawn was that "THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME FOR WACO IS DAVID KORESH" Whatever errors of judgment were made, they were not considered at fault.

so it was not "close".

 

[Si modo]

no bubbalah... you get what you give.

now how about admitting you were wrong.

we'll wait.

You called me a racist, I told you to fuck off.

You called me a drunk, I called you a bitch.

I can easily link to them, or would you like to lie about that again? I think it would be cool if you did the latter, THEN I link to them.

Yes, I was wrong about saying conviction. The FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter. At least it ruined his career. Who needs that sort of shit as a federal agent?

no. you started your nonsense on other threads.... posting insulting things. calling me a moron,.... which i actually initially found surprising since we had had some very nice discussions in pm's. and i was like.. ."huh"? "did someone steal her login???"

i never called you a racist. i said you were SUPPORTING racists. that is not the same. Frankly, I don't understand how you didn't understand that thinking it's ok to celebrate Lee-Jackson day and saying that MLK Jr Day was "pandering" didn't make you look very good.

i said 'don't drink and post' because you sounded irrational. i never called you a 'drunk'. there is a difference between being a drunk and having a few drinks.

you're also still misrepresenting the special prosecutor's report.... the conclusion drawn was that "THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME FOR WACO IS DAVID KORESH" Whatever errors of judgment were made, they were not considered at fault.

so it was not "close".

Oh, how fucking lame of you.

Cool...denial that you insulted me twice, BEFORE my insults to you.

I'll get the links....

 

[jillian]

You called me a racist, I told you to fuck off.

You called me a drunk, I called you a bitch.

I can easily link to them, or would you like to lie about that again? I think it would be cool if you did the latter, THEN I link to them.

Yes, I was wrong about saying conviction. The FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter. At least it ruined his career. Who needs that sort of shit as a federal agent?

no. you started your nonsense on other threads.... posting insulting things. calling me a moron,.... which i actually initially found surprising since we had had some very nice discussions in pm's. and i was like.. ."huh"? "did someone steal her login???"

i never called you a racist. i said you were SUPPORTING racists. that is not the same. Frankly, I don't understand how you didn't understand that thinking it's ok to celebrate Lee-Jackson day and saying that MLK Jr Day was "pandering" didn't make you look very good.

i said 'don't drink and post' because you sounded irrational. i never called you a 'drunk'. there is a difference between being a drunk and having a few drinks.

you're also still misrepresenting the special prosecutor's report.... the conclusion drawn was that "THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME FOR WACO IS DAVID KORESH" Whatever errors of judgment were made, they were not considered at fault.

so it was not "close".

Oh, how fucking lame of you.

Cool...denial that you insulted me twice, BEFORE my insults to you.

I'll get the links....

you do that snookie...

but i'd suggest you go back a ways to the first time you called me a 'moron'. that would have been a while ago... not one narrow little conversation.

and still you haven't admitted you're wrong. and you still haven't admitted that you defend racists



p.s. if you think for a second, i'm not going to return an insult to someone who seems to get pacic-stricken when she is shown to be wrong or faces any type of challenge, then you're wackier than i thought.

the 'lame' is on the other foot. (in case no one pointed it out to you, calling someone 'lame' is an insult...along with moron)

and, honestly, your rage is getting tiresome.

 

[whitehall]

have you ever bothered actually looking at the report?

http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf

I'll direct your attention to page 4, et seq. ... Conclusions of the Special Counsel:



you're welcome.

Hi Jillian, I suggest you watch the Academy Award winning documentary called "Waco, The Rules of Engagement." It will make you question everything the government has put out on the attack which was at best a screwup and at worst a criminal endeavor.

i may have seen it. i don't remember. but really, to me, what's important is that he was told ot come out. he didn't. all those people died because of him.

If we treated an Al-Queda stronghold the way we treated Americans at Waco everyone responsible would be in prison. I watched the hearings with big dumb Janet Reno on the stand and when she started comparing military tanks to a used car she was cut off in mid sentence by Chuck Schumer and the subject was changed. The search warrant was faulty, it's against the law to use the military against American citizens and what did you think would happen when you pumped a chemical with the volatility of lacquer thinner into a wood structure?

 

[Si modo]

no. you started your nonsense on other threads.... posting insulting things. calling me a moron,.... which i actually initially found surprising since we had had some very nice discussions in pm's. and i was like.. ."huh"? "did someone steal her login???"

i never called you a racist. i said you were SUPPORTING racists. that is not the same. Frankly, I don't understand how you didn't understand that thinking it's ok to celebrate Lee-Jackson day and saying that MLK Jr Day was "pandering" didn't make you look very good.

i said 'don't drink and post' because you sounded irrational. i never called you a 'drunk'. there is a difference between being a drunk and having a few drinks.

you're also still misrepresenting the special prosecutor's report.... the conclusion drawn was that "THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME FOR WACO IS DAVID KORESH" Whatever errors of judgment were made, they were not considered at fault.

so it was not "close".

Oh, how fucking lame of you.

Cool...denial that you insulted me twice, BEFORE my insults to you.

I'll get the links....

you do that snookie...

but i'd suggest you go back a ways to the first time you called me a 'moron'. that would have been a while ago... not one narrow little conversation.

and still you haven't admitted you're wrong. and you still haven't admitted that you defend racists



p.s. if you think for a second, i'm not going to return an insult to someone who seems to get pacic-stricken when she is shown to be wrong or faces any type of challenge, then you're wackier than i thought.

the 'lame' is on the other foot. (in case no one pointed it out to you, calling someone 'lame' is an insult...along with moron)

and, honestly, your rage is getting tiresome.

Cool grudging, Jillian!

I don't grudge. I just give what I get when I get it and am over it.

Funny how folks are so different.

Don't project your panic onto me. I would bet good money that I have admitted errors more than most on this board. My ego isn't so weak, so admitting an error means nothing to me.

You wanna keep up your insulting projections?

 

[westwall]

I saw it and thought it was a pretty good doco, but found quite a few holes and biased to a degree.

Sometimes people get so caught up in their 'rights', common sense goes out the window.

If he had done what he was told, then nobody would have died. Remember, he was armed and ready; he put everybody's lives in danger. He also claimed to be God, and from all accounts - by survivors and former members - he was an egomaniac who could possibly have been a paedophile. He could have come out, and if everything had gone to shit in the govt case he would have gotten a huge pay out and people would have lost their jobs.

I don't believe for one minute he was a hold out for 'his rights". He was shit scared what the authorities were going to find out about him and what a low life piece of shit he was.

The govt fucked up for sure, but in cases like this, every action causes a reaction. The person who starts the first action (in this case Koresh), is responsible. Anything that escalates from there is on him.

If I go into a store and rob it and shoot and wound a clerk, and then a cop confronts me and shoots and wounds me, I can't bitch and moan about the cop's actions....

I found it to quite balanced and when the documentarians were interviewed it was very obvious that they had thought it was a straight up case of a loon who led his flock to disaster, but at the end they felt the government was as culpable as Koresh and that the final assault was meant to kill everyone.

They were very pro government side of the story going in, but as they investigated they switched completely to feeling the FBI intentionally killed the people inside.

No offence WW, I like your stuff, but this is bordering on CT territory. I doubt any law enforcement agent wanted to kill anybody inside. There were hundreds of people involved, and if that was the case that would have to be one of the biggest coverups in the world.

I am merely repeating what the producers of an Academy Award winning documentary (and it would be hard to get more mainstream than that) had to say. I suggest you watch it again.

 

[L.K.Eder]

I found it to quite balanced and when the documentarians were interviewed it was very obvious that they had thought it was a straight up case of a loon who led his flock to disaster, but at the end they felt the government was as culpable as Koresh and that the final assault was meant to kill everyone.

They were very pro government side of the story going in, but as they investigated they switched completely to feeling the FBI intentionally killed the people inside.

No offence WW, I like your stuff, but this is bordering on CT territory. I doubt any law enforcement agent wanted to kill anybody inside. There were hundreds of people involved, and if that was the case that would have to be one of the biggest coverups in the world.

I am merely repeating what the producers of an Academy Award winning documentary (and it would be hard to get more mainstream than that) had to say. I suggest you watch it again.

you seem to lean quite hard on this "Academy Award winning"-crutch.

alas, it did not win.

 

[Oddball]

The AMPAS is good enough for Michele Mooooooore and Owlgore, it's good enough for that documentary.

 

[Sallow]

No, there wasn't....The McLennan County Sheriff has said so numerous times.

The BATF dirtbags were trying to make a high profile bust to keep their sorry asses from being downsized and rolled into the FBI....And it blew up in their faces.

I fought the law......and the law won

I fought the law...and the law won

Who knew you are in favor of police states?

Neither the ATF nor the FBI had a lawful warrant to serve on them. So, those in Waco were not fighting the "law", as there was nothing lawful that they were doing.

Sure they did.

Christian Terrorist Pedophile David Koresh was illegally involved in the sale of grenade casings.

ATF agents had a legal warrant to search the compound.

The terrorists in the compound open fire on federal agents.

What happened after that is completely the fault of the terrorists.