Are atheists materialists?

Are atheists materialists?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe

  • I don't know


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Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

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We are highly evolved animals with a strong social structure
 
All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
 
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All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.
 
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Here is a classic paper on consciousness. What Chalmers calls "nonreductive" is basically non-materialist (that is a bit clearer in this followup). Note that his views have shifted somewhat since then as well, but consciousness and the mind-body problem are still good examples of phenomena that some atheists recognize as potentially challenging to various kinds of physicalism.

I guess the other thing I'd say is that it's important to remember that all these terms refer to carefully constructed and endlessly debated philosophical ideas: materialism, physicalism, naturalism, dualism, and so on. But lots of people are atheists without being well-versed in philosophical debates like this. And it's not as if it's even strictly necessary for their ideas to be internally consistent. Some atheists hold views that are essentially materialistic. Others might hold to pretty naïve (from a philosophical standpoint) versions of dualism out of a desire to preserve certain concepts of free will, just to pick an example of another idea which tends to cause people to doubt physicalism. Others might consider all of these open questions, but simply reject theism on abductive grounds. I might put myself in that category, I don't think there is a completely compelling argument for any of the philosophical positions in relation to materialism and philosophy of mind.
 
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

View attachment 234724
Based on the definitions provided (thanks for providing definitions, by the way, most conversations here don't do so), I suppose so.

Atheists don't see evidence of a divine, omnipotent, all-knowing creator and have made a final decision that one does not exist. The difference between atheists and agnostics (like me) is that agnostics simply admit to not knowing. We have not made a final decision that some god does not exist. Let alone the god of one specific religion, out of so many.

There is a humility in admitting that we don't know something; there is narcissism in convincing ourselves that we have a solid grip on The Answer, and that our god is The One.
.
 
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Here is a classic paper on consciousness. What Chalmers calls "nonreductive" is basically non-materialist (that is a bit clearer in this followup). Note that his views have shifted somewhat since then as well, but consciousness and the mind-body problem are still good examples of phenomena that some atheists recognize as potentially challenging to various kinds of physicalism.

I guess the other thing I'd say is that it's important to remember that all these terms refer to carefully constructed and endlessly debated philosophical ideas: materialism, physicalism, naturalism, dualism, and so on. But lots of people are atheists without being well-versed in philosophical debates like this. And it's not as if it's even strictly necessary for their ideas to be internally consistent. Some atheists hold views that are essentially materialistic. Others might hold to pretty naïve (from a philosophical standpoint) versions of dualism out of a desire to preserve certain concepts of free will, just to pick an example of another idea which tends to cause people to doubt physicalism. Others might consider all of these open questions, but simply reject theism on abductive grounds. I might put myself in that category, I don't think there is a completely compelling argument for any of the philosophical positions in relation to materialism and philosophy of mind.
I guess what I am struggling with is the atheist position that they aren't materialists when they don't believe in any consciousness outside of material beings. It seems rather like they are recoiling from the bed they made for themselves, so to speak. It's like they want to see a higher meaning to their existence than their belief system will allow. It's like they want the best of both worlds. It's the in between view of Life-Force. As C.S. Lewis put it, "...all the emotional comfort of believing in God and none of the less pleasant consequences. When you are feeling fit and the sun is shining and you do not want to believe that the whole universe is a mere mechanical dance of atoms, it is nice to be able to think of this great mysterious Force rolling on through the centuries and carrying you on its crest. If, on the other hand, you want to do something rather shabby, the Life-Force, being only a blind force, with no morals and no mind, will never interfere with you like that troublesome God we learned about when we were children. The Life-Force is a sort of tame God. You can switch it on when you want, but it will not bother you. All the thrills of religion and none of the cost. Is the Life-Force the greatest achievement of wishful thinking the world has yet seen?"
 
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

View attachment 234724
As opposed to say, the Pope? Joel Osteen? You?

PS no link to your "atheist" site.
 
All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Why are you so obsessed with atheists? Nobody is gonna make you become one. Most don't care what you believe unless you try to force it on them. Did an atheist kick your dog?
 
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

View attachment 234724
As opposed to say, the Pope? Joel Osteen? You?

PS no link to your "atheist" site.
Yes, there is a link embedded in the post right after the word website.

As opposed to people who believe in a higher power. People are not all bad or all good. You can’t focus on one thing and expect to see the full picture. That would be like me pointing to one thing about you and saying that’s Taz.
 
All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Why are you so obsessed with atheists? Nobody is gonna make you become one. Most don't care what you believe unless you try to force it on them. Did an atheist kick your dog?
The question came up in another discussion and I was surprised to discover their belief. It deserved its own thread because their response seemed inconsistent with their belief that there isn’t anything which is incorporeal which does not come from material beings.

It was almost as if they believed there was some life force at work which by my accounting is inconsistent with the atheist world view that nothing exists outside of the material world.
 
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

View attachment 234724
As opposed to say, the Pope? Joel Osteen? You?

PS no link to your "atheist" site.
Yes, there is a link embedded in the post right after the word website.

As opposed to people who believe in a higher power. People are not all bad or all good. You can’t focus on one thing and expect to see the full picture. That would be like me pointing to one thing about you and saying that’s Taz.
Ok, saw the link. But I don't see myself in this, and it's from fucking FRANCE!!!! :lol: Ils sont tous fou les Français.

They are trying to say, for example, that anyone who is spiritual believes in Creationism, which is bullshit. I'm spiritual, I just see no proof for the theories put forth by today's religions. I think it's probably something else.

So you believe in Creationism?
 
Absolutely, they don't even believe in the ethereal.
Some do, like me, but we don't believe in the cartoon version of organized religions of today.
Maybe it’s because you don’t understand the world religions. The basic beliefs that matter to our everyday lives in all world religions are more similar than different. Maybe it is your biased - both in reading their wisdoms and in judging the behaviors of their practitioners - that is keeping you from seeing it.
 
All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Why are you so obsessed with atheists? Nobody is gonna make you become one. Most don't care what you believe unless you try to force it on them. Did an atheist kick your dog?
The question came up in another discussion and I was surprised to discover their belief. It deserved its own thread because their response seemed inconsistent with their belief that there isn’t anything which is incorporeal which does not come from material beings.

It was almost as if they believed there was some life force at work which by my accounting is inconsistent with the atheist world view that nothing exists outside of the material world.

Got it. You are desperately trying to find something to discredit those who don't share your religious beliefs. Not sure why you would be worried about that.
 
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.

In Idealism, mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and secondary. In philosophical materialism the converse is true. Here mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, for example) without which they cannot exist. According to this doctrine the material creates and determines consciousness, not vice versa.

Materialist theories are mainly divided into three groups. Naive materialism identifies the material world with specific elements (e.g. the scheme of the four elements—fire, air, water and earth—devised by the pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles). Metaphysical materialism examines separated parts of the world in a static, isolated environment. Dialectical materialism adapts the Hegelian dialectic for materialism, examining parts of the world in relation to each other within a dynamic environment.

Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical. Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferred over "materialism" by some, while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.

Philosophies contradictory to materialism or physicalism include idealism, pluralism, dualism, and other forms of monism.

Materialism - Wikipedia

The following is a table taken from an atheist website Main differences between materialism and spiritualism and compares materialism to spiritualism.

View attachment 234724
As opposed to say, the Pope? Joel Osteen? You?

PS no link to your "atheist" site.
Yes, there is a link embedded in the post right after the word website.

As opposed to people who believe in a higher power. People are not all bad or all good. You can’t focus on one thing and expect to see the full picture. That would be like me pointing to one thing about you and saying that’s Taz.
Ok, saw the link. But I don't see myself in this, and it's from fucking FRANCE!!!! :lol: Ils sont tous fou les Français.

They are trying to say, for example, that anyone who is spiritual believes in Creationism, which is bullshit. I'm spiritual, I just see no proof for the theories put forth by today's religions. I think it's probably something else.

So you believe in Creationism?
Don’t blame me. I’m just the messenger.

I think creationism was the only thing I disagreed with in the spiritual column.
 
All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.
Can you give an example of what an atheist who isn't a materialist would believe that would make him not a materialist?

Because I am sort of struggling with that one.

Why are you so obsessed with atheists? Nobody is gonna make you become one. Most don't care what you believe unless you try to force it on them. Did an atheist kick your dog?
The question came up in another discussion and I was surprised to discover their belief. It deserved its own thread because their response seemed inconsistent with their belief that there isn’t anything which is incorporeal which does not come from material beings.

It was almost as if they believed there was some life force at work which by my accounting is inconsistent with the atheist world view that nothing exists outside of the material world.

Got it. You are desperately trying to find something to discredit those who don't share your religious beliefs. Not sure why you would be worried about that.
If that’s how you want to see it, go ahead. That’s not how I see it though. I was pretty specific and clear in my answer.
 
there are no atheists
there would have to be a god

realists is the word and what '''they''' are
 
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