An Observation

[Annie]

FYI everybody:

Gee, I do believe I'm right.

Robert, are you Catholic?

 

[DavidS]

And if not the reason I listed above then why?

One of the biggest reasons was religious reasons. The Christians believe that the creation of Israel will bring about the building of the 3rd temple and the return of Jesus, or as Jews would put it, the coming of the messiah for the first time.

But, yes, you're right, it is to have a diplomatic foothold in the middle east, and it certainly helps with the Jewish vote politically here in the US.

 

[editec]

Most of those that claim to be for 'peace' whatever the conflict, in fact are just for the 'other side.'

You've observed this, have you?

So like if somebody says to you: "Peace on earth and goodwill toward men"

You assume they're what? Martians or something?

See my point?

What is "the other side" ??

 

[jillian]

FYI everybody: America only supports Israel because they are our foothold in the Middle East.

Which is why Israel despite being one of the more smaller nations has some of the best weapons in the world.

Nobody on either side could deny the fact that if not for America then Israel would be nowhere near where it is today.

Sure, some countries have the weapons amount to give to Israel but not the quality of weapons or the diplomatic support the U.S holds.

(I'm not saying this means Israel should/should not exist, I'm simply stating facts).

And if not the reason I listed above then why?

Because we feel they are being unjustly attacked? If that were the case then how come we're not in Darfur stopping the genocides going on there? Or the other genocides of years past? In fact, America and the rest of the world only stepped in to stop Hitler's Genocide of the Jews, Atheists, and anyone who disagreed with him in Germany because Germany and Japan invaded their countries.

The rest of the world sat idle by while Hitler committed Genocide.

So lets see, why else could it be?

Because we like their flag? Their national anthem? Because we liked their windsurfing team that won a gold medal in the 2004 olympics?

Gee, I do believe I'm right.

Actually, the U.S. didn't always support Israel. Initially, we and the Brits refused to give weapons to the Jews while the Soviets were giving weapons to the Arab populations. Israel still won. And, FWIW, we give money and weapons to Arab countries too. No one gets offended by that.

What I will say, is that sometimes we should just do the right thing, though I don't suspect for a second that nations do that frequently.

There is a flip side to your argument... the U.S. needs to get oil independent so we stop giving money to governments that fund terrorists who hate us.

This fantasy that terrorists would be nice to us if we would just toss Israel under the bus is just silliness. Fundamentalists who work with the goal of making the world in their image or killing everyone else in the process don't respond to huggy feely stuff.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Most of those that claim to be for 'peace' whatever the conflict, in fact are just for the 'other side.'

So unless one champions Israel, they can't be for peace in your opinion?

Surely you aren't serious.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

So deep or avoiding? Doesn't matter, the number of posts make it clear.

Yet YOU won't answer the qusetion yourself. You're admonishing others for not answering a question you won't answer.

Kinda' makes your question silly and irrelevent.

It appears that "peace" is not your objective.

 

[editec]

I am so damned sick of the whole Isreal/Palestinian question.

You people are obsessed.

Navigating between the unreasonable NAZIs and the unreasonable Zionists is a real pain the ass, you know?

Do you suppose it might be possible that every thread not be turned into still another place where you two opposing camps say the same damned thing over and over again?

It'd be nice.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I am so damned sick of the whole Isreal/Palestinian question.

You people are obsessed.

Navigating between the unreasonable NAZIs and the unreasonable Zionists is a real pain the ass, you know?

Do you suppose it might be possible that every thread not be turned into still another place where you two opposing camps say the same damned thing over and over again?

It'd be nice.

Frankly, it's a good thing that the Isreal/Palestine question has taken center stage. America avoids this discussion like a disease .. yet we pay dearly for our bigoted support for Israel.

I'll ask again the question that zionists run from ..

QUESTION: .. What are the benefits of our undeniably biased support for Israel bringing to America and the American people that outweigh the tremendous costs of that support?

Costs such as,

Billions and billions of DWINDLING US taxpayer dollars pouring into Israel .. which was just increased by 25% in 2007 and with Barack Obama promising to increase military aid to Israel by another five billion dollars when he takes office.

Growing resentment against the United States all over the world and proving to the world that the problem with America ain't George Bush. ... a world we are increasingly dependent on.

Exponentially increasing the rise of terrorism, and in fact, giving support to those who use it.

Giving support to more radical elements in the arab world, thus endangering moderate leaders by giving a stronger voice less US friendly opposition.

Creating a greater divide between the EU and the US.

Opening the door to Russia, China, and the SCO to make gains in trade, treaties, and military cooperation throughout the middle east, far east, Africa, and even in South America .. and makes them appear friendlier and more acceptable in some cases to the EU.

AND, not the least of which, endangering the lives of American soldiers fighting in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Does anybody believe situations in both wars didn't just suddenly become more dangerous? Does anybody believe that those elements our troops are fighting aren't seeing a boon in their recruitment?

These are sane questions that will have to be answered. America can no longer afford to be Israel's bitch .. but I'm betting the zionists will run away and avoid answering again.

 

[tigerbob]

Most of those that claim to be for 'peace' whatever the conflict, in fact are just for the 'other side.'

Interesting observation. I'd tend to agree. Back someone far enough into a corner and eventually they will reveal a preference or at least a sympathy for one side or another. In most cases anyway.

 

[dilloduck]

ok--this crap couldn't go on for years liek this unless someone is benefitting from it. Only chance I see stopping it is to take on those benefittnig from contant mideast turmoil.

 

[editec]

Frankly, it's a good thing that the Isreal/Palestine question has taken center stage. America avoids this discussion like a disease .. yet we pay dearly for our bigoted support for Israel.

No it's not.

Want to know why?

Because this question takes all the oxygen out of the room because the opposing camps are fucking crazy with hate and fear and frankly, they're both either ractist or ethnocentrists who make ration discussions about this subject im-fucking-possible.

And this happens every damned time that Isreal is having problems keeping the Palestinians on the reservation and NOTHING ever gets resolves.

This is a family squabble that infects our nation.

America is facing REAL PROBLEMS that make the whole issue of Israel/Palestine issue mighty small potatoes by comparison.

If Israel cesased to exist would any of OUR PROBLEMS be solved?

No, they would not.

And if the Palestinians ceased to exist, would any of OUR PROBLEMS be solved?

No, they would not.

We., the US of A's masters of the universe created most of the problems we are facing.

DDon't blame the Jews.

Don't blame the Palestinians, either.

They are BOTH convenient scapegoats our masters use to explain a lot of the problems we have in foreign affairs and that, my friend, is largely BULLSHIT.

It's bullshit when some terrorist trys to tell us that it's all about Israel, and it's bullshit when our leaders try to tell us it's all about Israel, too.

It's about EVERYTHING that the West and the Arab world have going on.

It's about a long stormy history of two civilizations colliding of which Isreal is but the lightening rod.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Annie,

Here's an observation for you that blows your "you're either with us or against us" illogic completely away.

The following humble suggestions are based on my seventy years of experience as an underground fighter, special forces soldier in the 1948 war, editor-in-chief of a newsmagazine, member of the Knesset and founding member of a peace movement:

A Memo to Obama on Israel Israeli/Palestinian Conflict

Uri Avnery: The following humble suggestions are based on my 70 years of experience as an underground fighter, member of the Knesset and founding member of a peace movement in Israel.
1) As far as Israeli-Arab peace is concerned, you should act from Day One.

2) Israeli elections are due to take place in February 2009. You can have an indirect but important and constructive impact on the outcome, by announcing your unequivocal determination to achieve Israeli-Palestinian, Israeli-Syrian and Israeli-all-Arab peace in 2009.

3) Unfortunately, all your predecessors since 1967 have played a double game. While paying lip service to peace, and sometimes going through the motions of making some effort for peace, they have in practice supported our governments in moving in the very opposite direction. In particular, they have given tacit approval to the building and enlargement of Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian and Syrian territories, each of which is a land mine on the road to peace.

4) All the settlements are illegal in international law. The distinction sometimes made between "illegal" outposts and the other settlements is a propaganda ploy designed to obscure this simple truth.

5) All the settlements since 1967 have been built with the express purpose of making a Palestinian state--and hence peace--impossible, by cutting the territory of the prospective State of Palestine into ribbons. Practically all our government departments and the army have openly or secretly helped to build, consolidate and enlarge the settlements--as confirmed by the 2005 report prepared for the government by lawyer Talia Sasson.

6) By now, the number of settlers in the West Bank has reached some 250,000 (apart from the 200,000 settlers in the Greater Jerusalem area, whose status is somewhat different). They are politically isolated, and sometimes detested by the majority of the Israel public, but enjoy significant support in the army and government ministries.

7) No Israeli government would dare to confront the concentrated political and material might of the settlers. Such a confrontation would need very strong leadership and the unstinting support of the President of the United States to have any chance of success.

8) Lacking these, all "peace negotiations" are a sham. The Israeli government and its US backers have done everything possible to prevent the negotiations with both the Palestinians and the Syrians from reaching any conclusion, for fear of provoking a confrontation with the settlers and their supporters. The present "Annapolis" negotiations are as hollow as all the preceding ones, each side keeping up the pretense for its own political interests.

9) The Clinton administration, and even more so the Bush administration, allowed the Israeli government to keep up this pretense. It is therefore imperative to prevent members of these administrations from diverting your Middle Eastern policy into the old channels.

10) It is important for you to make a complete new start, and to state this publicly. Discredited ideas and failed initiatives--such as the Bush "vision," the Road Map, Annapolis and the like--should be thrown into the junkyard of history.

11) To make a new start, the aim of American policy should be stated clearly and succinctly. This should be: to achieve a peace based on the two-state solution within a defined time span (say, by the end of 2009).

12) It should be pointed out that this aim is based on a reassessment of the American national interest, in order to extract the poison from American-Arab and American-Muslim relations, strengthen peace-oriented regimes, defeat Al Qaeda-type terrorism, end the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and achieve a viable accommodation with Iran.

13) The terms of Israeli-Palestinian peace are clear. They have been crystallized in thousands of hours of negotiations, conferences, meetings and conversations. They are:

13.1) A sovereign and viable State of Palestine will be established side by side with the State of Israel.

13.2) The border between the two states will be based on the pre-1967 Armistice Line (the "Green Line"). Insubstantial alterations can be arrived at by mutual agreement on an exchange of territories on a 1:1 basis.

13.3) East Jerusalem, including the Haram-al-Sharif ("Temple Mount") and all Arab neighborhoods will serve as the capital of Palestine. West Jerusalem, including the Western Wall and all Jewish neighborhoods, will serve as the capital of Israel. A joint municipal authority, based on equality, may be established by mutual consent to administer the city as one territorial unit.

13.4) All Israeli settlements--except any which might be joined to Israel in the framework of a mutually agreed exchange of territories-- will be evacuated (see 15 below).

13.5) Israel will recognize in principle the right of the refugees to return. A Joint Commission for Truth and Reconciliation, composed of Palestinian, Israeli and international historians, will examine the events of 1948 and 1967 and determine who was responsible for what. Each individual refugee will be given the choice between (1) repatriation to the State of Palestine, (2) remaining where he/she is living now and receiving generous compensation, (3) returning to Israel and being resettled, (4) emigrating to any other country, with generous compensation. The number of refugees who will return to Israeli territory will be fixed by mutual agreement, it being understood that nothing will be done that materially alters the demographic composition of the Israeli population. The large funds needed for the implementation of this solution must be provided by the international community in the interest of world peace. This will save much of the money spent today on military expenditure and direct grants from the United States.


13.6) The West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip constitute one national unit. An extraterritorial connection (road, railway, tunnel or bridge) will connect the West Bank with the Gaza Strip.


13.7) Israel and Syria will sign a peace agreement. Israel will withdraw to the pre-1967 line and all settlements on the Golan Heights will be dismantled. Syria will cease all anti-Israeli activities conducted directly or by proxy. The two parties will establish normal relations between them.


13.8) In accordance with the Saudi Peace Initiative, all member states of the Arab League will recognize Israel and establish normal relations with it. Talks about a future Middle Eastern Union, on the model of the EU, possibly to include Turkey and Iran, may be considered.

14) Palestinian unity is essential for peace. Peace made with only one section of the people is worthless. The US will facilitate Palestinian reconciliation and the unification of Palestinian structures. To this end, the US will end its boycott of Hamas, which won the last elections, start a political dialogue with the movement and encourage Israel to do the same. The US will respect any result of democratic Palestinian elections.

15) The US will aid the government of Israel in confronting the settlement problem. As from now, settlers will be given one year to leave the occupied territories voluntarily in return for compensation that will allow them to build their homes in Israel proper. After that, all settlements--except those within any areas to be joined to Israel under the peace agreement--will be evacuated.

16) I suggest that you, as president of the United States, come to Israel and address the Israeli people personally, not only from the rostrum of the Knesset but also at a mass rally in Tel-Aviv's Rabin Square. President Anwar Sadat of Egypt came to Israel in 1977, and, by addressing the Israeli people directly, completely changed their attitude towards peace with Egypt. At present, most Israelis feel insecure, uncertain and afraid of any daring peace initiative, partly because of a deep distrust of anything coming from the Arab side. Your personal intervention, at the critical moment, could literally do wonders in creating the psychological basis for peace.
A Memo to Obama on Israel

Uri Avnery is a veteran of Israel's 1948 war, a former Member of the Knesset, founder of the Gush Shalom peace movement and winner of the 2001 Right Livelihood Award, often called the "alternative Nobel Peace Prize." His book "1948: A Soldier's Tale, the Bloody Road to Jerusalem," which was published in Hebrew soon after the 1948 war and was a bestseller in Israel, has just been translated into English for the first time by Oneworld Publications.

The flaw in the your argument is there are ever-growing JEWISH voices against the macinations of the zionist government.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

No it's not.

Want to know why?

Because this question takes all the oxygen out of the room because the opposing camps are fucking crazy with hate and fear and frankly, they're both either ractist or ethnocentrists who make ration discussions about this subject im-fucking-possible.

And this happens every damned time that Isreal is having problems keeping the Palestinians on the reservation and NOTHING ever gets resolves.

This is a family squabble that infects our nation.

America is facing REAL PROBLEMS that make the whole issue of Israel/Palestine issue mighty small potatoes by comparison.

If Israel cesased to exist would any of OUR PROBLEMS be solved?

No, they would not.

And if the Palestinians ceased to exist, would any of OUR PROBLEMS be solved?

No, they would not.

We., the US of A's masters of the universe created most of the problems we are facing.

DDon't blame the Jews.

Don't blame the Palestinians, either.

They are BOTH convenient scapegoats our masters use to explain a lot of the problems we have in foreign affairs and that, my friend, is largely BULLSHIT.

It's bullshit when some terrorist trys to tell us that it's all about Israel, and it's bullshit when our leaders try to tell us it's all about Israel, too.

It's about EVERYTHING that the West and the Arab world have going on.

It's about a long stormy history of two civilizations colliding of which Isreal is but the lightening rod.

Irrespective of how you see the problems, avoiding the discussions will not make them go away. That's not what mature and intelligent people do.

Are the questions difficult? .. Absolutely .. but avoiding them because they're difficult does not in my opinion solve anything.

Will situations get better if we don't talk about them?

What about the tremendous costs that America pays for it's biased support of Israel .. can we afford to just keep paying these costs ad infinitum?

I completely disagree and I remind you of something someone wise once told me .. SILENCE IS FAILURE

 

[editec]

Irrespective of how you see the problems, avoiding the discussions will not make them go away.

Nor will anything we say here make them go away.

That's not what mature and intelligent people do.

What mature people do when they reach an impasse in a debate is acknowledge that there isn't enough common ground to find a solution or reach a conclusion, BAC.

The don't do this because they have relented or because the problem isn't important, but because all they;re doing by continuing to insult each other is make it worse.

Are the questions difficult? .. Absolutely .. but avoiding them because they're difficult does not in my opinion solve anything.

Is there a single argument on either side which you or I have not heard, discussed to death and found unresolvable?

I don't think so. I've been involved in these debates about Isreal for years and years and I have never seem them create anything but hard feelings.

And I cannot help but note that the people who most often start these discussion have no desire to discuss issues rationally, but merely uses these discussion to insult others, try to hurt other people's feelings, and spead their messages of hate and racism and ethnocentrism.

Will situations get better if we don't talk about them?

Most of us cannot talk about them.

We insult one another pretending that by doing so, we're discussing the issues

What about the tremendous costs that America pays for it's biased support of Israel .. can we afford to just keep paying these costs ad infinitum?

America's OTHER problems will make our continued support of Israel unlikely. A broke nation isn't a very good ally, is it?

I completely disagree and I remind you of something someone wise once told me .. SILENCE IS FAILURE

And going over the same racist paths we have been going over, navigating our way around the racist/hnocentrists who seek to destabilize RATIONAL DISCUSSION about this issue is worse than failure...it exascerbates the problem.

All I see happening here is this "issue" becomes a platform for NAZIs to spew their vile poison about Jews, and for ZIONISTS to spew their hateful assults on Palestinians.

I see nothing good coming from this on THIS BOARD because there are so many crypto NAZIs and people who love Isreal more than the nation which sustains them.

 

[tigerbob]

I see nothing good coming from this on THIS BOARD because there are so many crypto NAZIs and people who love Isreal more than the nation which sustains them.

Until people learn to compromise, I agree.

 

[Annie]

Yet YOU won't answer the qusetion yourself. You're admonishing others for not answering a question you won't answer.

Kinda' makes your question silly and irrelevent.

It appears that "peace" is not your objective.

BAC, I don't think it's a secret that I favor Israel, I think they've been the victim more often than the aggressor. I think your posts show that you feel the opposite, which is certainly your prerogative and it's obvious you've arrived at your position logically, as have I mine. We choose to emphasize different factors to arrive at our positions, which is really the basis of making a compromise of some sort down the line, IF we had any influence on the situation.

My 'observation' was about those who keep saying, "They both have done wrongs, they both kill, they both lie, they both...." Eventually, when pressed they'll say, "but, ...... has to do......", that was what I was referring to. Trying to find some relevancy in this situation is what is silly. I find what the Palestinians and current/former allies have done worthy of Israel's reaction, first regarding checkpoints, later the retaliation for missiles. You find Israel's refusal to remove the checkpoints, wall a convincing argument for subsequent Palestinian terror.

Citing individuals, whether Jewish or not, former IDF military leaders or not, as the basis for what 'should happen, well it would be as effective as if my or your ideas were implemented. No, at some point the terrorists will have to give up terrorism, Israel is going to have to give up some lands, but not without a clear agreement that if that results in more of the same, what they take from that point on, will be theirs. Or something to that effect. Neither side is there yet.

 

[Modbert]

Robert, are you Catholic?

Yes, I would be.

But I don't support people who use religion as a way to justify their wars, genocides, and murders among other crimes against humanity.

 

[Annie]

Yes, I would be.

But I don't support people who use religion as a way to justify their wars, genocides, and murders among other crimes against humanity.

Actually that was a joke, meant from earlier posts about 'Catholics always believe they have the truth or are right.'

 

[Modbert]

One of the biggest reasons was religious reasons. The Christians believe that the creation of Israel will bring about the building of the 3rd temple and the return of Jesus, or as Jews would put it, the coming of the messiah for the first time.

But, yes, you're right, it is to have a diplomatic foothold in the middle east, and it certainly helps with the Jewish vote politically here in the US.

Mind showing me that source?

And to be honest, so many people in the U.S. in power who saw this as a huge opportunity for the U.S. didn't give a fuck about Israel and the jews who live there.

Otherwise, we would of stepped in and stopped Hitler alot earlier huh?

 

[Modbert]

Actually that was a joke, meant from earlier posts about 'Catholics always believe they have the truth or are right.'

Ahh I see. Well it is God's will. Take it up with him.