An Observation

[Annie]

Ahh I see. Well it is God's will. Take it up with him.

Oh yeah, all Catholics think the 'same.' Right.

 

[Modbert]

Actually, the U.S. didn't always support Israel. Initially, we and the Brits refused to give weapons to the Jews while the Soviets were giving weapons to the Arab populations. Israel still won. And, FWIW, we give money and weapons to Arab countries too. No one gets offended by that.

What I will say, is that sometimes we should just do the right thing, though I don't suspect for a second that nations do that frequently.

There is a flip side to your argument... the U.S. needs to get oil independent so we stop giving money to governments that fund terrorists who hate us.

This fantasy that terrorists would be nice to us if we would just toss Israel under the bus is just silliness. Fundamentalists who work with the goal of making the world in their image or killing everyone else in the process don't respond to huggy feely stuff.

I'm first going to ask: Can you read?

Not to sound rude but:

I said where it would be today, not that it supported Israel at first. Though it is true that we have always given them aid since 1948.

We don't give nearly the amount we give to the arab countries that we give to Israel. Besides, there are plenty of reasons we give arab countries money. Unrelated example, we give Columbia lots of money to fight the drug cartels there (though none of it probably goes to actually fighting but helping).

Again, you either went off on your own rant or totally took my words out of context. I don't believe this conflict would end if we threw Israel under the bus. But don't bullshit me in the reasons we help them.

It's purely political and military reasons. Not out of the goodness of our damn hearts.

Besides, who are WE to say any nation has a right to exist? We came here, took the land from the Indians and then people like John Hancock who were smugglers didn't want to get taxed heavily by the British and wanted to leave British Rule. Let us not forget men like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington who wanted to go west and take over the indian lands there, but the british didn't want them to.

No nation has a right to exist. Not Palestine, Israel, America, or any other country.

And religion because one's God "says" that those people have a right to the land over all others is bullshit.

In every religion, doesn't God love all his children (us) equally? If that is true, then why the fuck is he sitting there picking out his favorite group of people supposedly?

 

[Ravi]

The flaw of the warmonger ... thinking one side has to be right and the other wrong instead of just allowing for people to be people.

Yep. Both sides have valid points. Both sides can be criticized for certain actions.

That said, the Israelis have the legal right to Israel and the Palestinians are basically shit out of luck.

 

[DavidS]

Yep. Both sides have valid points. Both sides can be criticized for certain actions.

That said, the Israelis have the legal right to Israel and the Palestinians are basically shit out of luck.

 

[Modbert]

Yep. Both sides have valid points. Both sides can be criticized for certain actions.

That said, the Israelis have the legal right to Israel and the Palestinians are basically shit out of luck.

Did I miss the trial where this was decided?

 

[midcan5]

"It would be wrong to try to use this history to determine "who is right," though many "histories" have certainly been written by partisans of either side, with precisely that purpose in mind. Those who are interested in advocacy, in collecting "points" for their side, cannot find the truth except by accident. If they find it, and it is inconvenient, they will bury it again. This account intends to inform, and nothing more. Two separate documents explain how I think we should gather facts and learn about the conflict, and the importance of words in making Middle East history, as well as in understanding it. A timeline provides details of many events not discussed in this history, and source documents provide additional background. Serious students will also refer to the bibliography for more information and different viewpoints, and will always seek out primary source documents to verify whatever claims are made about those documents or about quotes from those documents."

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)

 

[editec]

Did I miss the trial where this was decided?

The trial is a trial by combat and terrorism and it has been happening for about 60 years.

Damned shame, too.

Imagine what that land might have become had the European Jews and Palestinians found -- as many of them had done already, before the fucking Zionists and fucking Islamisists turned it into a civil war based on ethnics-- a way to live together in peace.

But no...Palestine had to become the Jewish Homeland, ergo the Palestinians, (much like the AmerInidans) had to get out of the way.

Sadly, the Arabs are still in the way 60 years later.

 

[jillian]

The trial is a trial by combat and terrorism and it has been happening for about 60 years.

Damned shame, too.

Imagine what that land might have become had the European Jews and Palestinians found -- as many of them had done already, before the fucking Zionists and Islamisists turned it into a civil war based on ethnics-- a way to live together in peace.

But no...Palestine had to become the Jewish Homeland, ergo the Palestinians, (much like the AmerInidans) had to get out of the way.

Sadly, the Arabs are still in the way 60 years later.

No no no no! They didn't have to get out of the way. They had to live side by side. The Arabs steadfastly refused to do that.

Go look up the nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

 

[Annie]

No no no no! They didn't have to get out of the way. They had to live side by side. The Arabs steadfastly refused to do that.

Go look up the nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

Jillian, it looks like the propaganda war is all but won by the Arabs. Seems there will not be any coverage of the other side. There was a reason Channel 4 put Ahmadinejad on for Christmas message.

And there's the fact that even many educated people like to hear only from the 'downtrodden.' The facts of 'why' they are in that position? They like hearing it's due to the oppression of those who pretend to be 'good.'

 

[Ravi]

Did I miss the trial where this was decided?

Spoils of war.

 

[editec]

No no no no! They didn't have to get out of the way. They had to live side by side. The Arabs steadfastly refused to do that.

Go look up the nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

They steadfastly refused to allow the European Jews to move in (en masse) in the first place, Jillian.

The Ababs of Palestine made it perfectly clear they didn't want to become a European colony the moment the Balfour Declaration was made public.

The Zionists of Europe knew perfectly well they were not welcome there.

And so, much like European colonialists for the last 500 years, they came anyway and began the process of driving the original occupants off their own land.

There is essantially no moral difference between Israell, and the United States.

Morally and ethically, neither nation has a leg to stand on.

The major difference between the USA and Isreal now is simply that Israel, cannot simply exterminate the majority of the Palestinians to make that indigenous population problem go away.

The time for the European Zionists to have established their colony in the land formerly known as Israel, would have been in the 17th - 19th century, but of course back then, Europe couldn't dominate the Islamic world, could it?

And it looks to me like European and American and Zionist power still cannot dominate the Arab-Islamic world, either.

You and I both know damned well, that Palestinians could not continue this civil war without the covert or overt aide of their fellow Arab (and a few Islanice, but not Arab) nations.

So basically Israel is the lightening rod, the surrogate war serving as the clash of the Western v Islamic-Arab civilizations.

The Jews of Isreal, and the Arabs of Palestine are pawns in the grander game of world geo-politics, Jillian.

It annoys the crap out me, when the NAZIs balme this whole mess on the Jews.

They give England and France a complete pass when those two nations have the majoroty responsibility for the mess.

Of course at this stage of the game, the Isrealis have NO CHOICE but to fight and continue fighting.

What many of the boards Zionists sympathizers refuse to acknowledge is that the Palestinians don't really much choice, either.

Look at how the majo9rity of Palestinian refugees from the war of 48 are STILL living, JILLIAN.

THAT is entirely the fault of the Isreali government.

Not the arbas, not the American not the birts, but the Isrealis who decided that anyone who left their home, whether at gun point or by choice, any arab who abandone their homes while that CIVIL WAR and INVASION by the ARba states was happening LOST their property rights, and THEIR RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES.

Nobboy but the Zionists can be blames for that policy, Jill.

That ethnocentrism cannot be blamed on anybody else.

So to whine that the poor Isrealis just want to live in peace is a lie.

The Isreali government will STILL will not acknowledge the property rights of the vast majority of Palestinians.

 

[Ravi]

Imagine for a minute native Americans deciding to retake the USA using terror tactics...they'd all be vaporized in a heartbeat.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Nor will anything we say here make them go away.

What mature people do when they reach an impasse in a debate is acknowledge that there isn't enough common ground to find a solution or reach a conclusion, BAC.

The don't do this because they have relented or because the problem isn't important, but because all they;re doing by continuing to insult each other is make it worse.

Is there a single argument on either side which you or I have not heard, discussed to death and found unresolvable?

I don't think so. I've been involved in these debates about Isreal for years and years and I have never seem them create anything but hard feelings.

And I cannot help but note that the people who most often start these discussion have no desire to discuss issues rationally, but merely uses these discussion to insult others, try to hurt other people's feelings, and spead their messages of hate and racism and ethnocentrism.

Most of us cannot talk about them.

We insult one another pretending that by doing so, we're discussing the issues

America's OTHER problems will make our continued support of Israel unlikely. A broke nation isn't a very good ally, is it?

And going over the same racist paths we have been going over, navigating our way around the racist/hnocentrists who seek to destabilize RATIONAL DISCUSSION about this issue is worse than failure...it exascerbates the problem.

All I see happening here is this "issue" becomes a platform for NAZIs to spew their vile poison about Jews, and for ZIONISTS to spew their hateful assults on Palestinians.

I see nothing good coming from this on THIS BOARD because there are so many crypto NAZIs and people who love Isreal more than the nation which sustains them.

Perhaps our different views on this come from my being I'm older then you good brother. I've lived the civil rights era and if you think the differences are wide on Israel imagine what they were on race in this country. Although the internet wasn't yet alive, there were plenty of mediums and opportunities for people to express their views. Ultimately, through all the hundreds of years of a racist culture, intelligence began to break through the noise. America was forced to take a hard look at itself because the conversations would not stop, would not just go away.

We should never allow the percieved extremes to dictate society of what should or should not be discussed. I say "percieved" extremes because what one sees as extreme another sees as a critical element of the discussion. Again, race is a prime example.

Additionally, why run from the extremes? If a position is indeed extreme, shouldn't a more proper position be able to demonstrate its logical soundness, particularly when compared to the extreme?

In my opinion, what is demonstrated about this issue even here on this board .. even through the noise .. is those who profess this undying love of Israel before the best interests of their own country cannot intelligently support their position, cannot answer the critical question of how this benefits America, and hide behind the mask of "anti-semitism." I've posted the thoughts of JEWISH thinkers who support the same position of Israel that the vast majority of the world support. They're only answer is to call other Jews "self-loathing" and to claim the entire planet is "anti-semitic."

I'm obviously getting more from these discussions than you are, but I'm sure there are other people who come away with the same. There is a reason why this discussion has been censored in America .. and that reason is because there is no logic that supports our position in the ME.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

BAC, I don't think it's a secret that I favor Israel, I think they've been the victim more often than the aggressor. I think your posts show that you feel the opposite, which is certainly your prerogative and it's obvious you've arrived at your position logically, as have I mine. We choose to emphasize different factors to arrive at our positions, which is really the basis of making a compromise of some sort down the line, IF we had any influence on the situation.

My 'observation' was about those who keep saying, "They both have done wrongs, they both kill, they both lie, they both...." Eventually, when pressed they'll say, "but, ...... has to do......", that was what I was referring to. Trying to find some relevancy in this situation is what is silly. I find what the Palestinians and current/former allies have done worthy of Israel's reaction, first regarding checkpoints, later the retaliation for missiles. You find Israel's refusal to remove the checkpoints, wall a convincing argument for subsequent Palestinian terror.

Citing individuals, whether Jewish or not, former IDF military leaders or not, as the basis for what 'should happen, well it would be as effective as if my or your ideas were implemented. No, at some point the terrorists will have to give up terrorism, Israel is going to have to give up some lands, but not without a clear agreement that if that results in more of the same, what they take from that point on, will be theirs. Or something to that effect. Neither side is there yet.

I don't disagree with much of what you've said here .. however, citing Jewish indiviuals, particularly former IDF military leaders, demonstrates the fallacy of the "antisemitism", "self-loathing" arguments. It clears the air and forces the conversation towards dealing with the issue based on facts and merit, not the evasion of shooting the messenger. It's much easier to label me anti-semitic and run from the message than it is to dismiss the thoughts of some of those I've posted. It's easier to call Chomsky "self-loathing" than it is to label a former IDF leader as such.

You speak of peace, but I see no peace coming from your side .. which even condemns helping Palestinian women and children. All I see coming from Israel is defiance and a belief that they are above all the rest of the world. Where is the intelligence in that? Where are any long-term prospects for peace to be found in that posture? Where is peace to be found when you're the most hated nation on earth?

If you would, please answer my question of how our undeniably biased position on the ME benefits America and the American people.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Jillian, it looks like the propaganda war is all but won by the Arabs. Seems there will not be any coverage of the other side. There was a reason Channel 4 put Ahmadinejad on for Christmas message.

And there's the fact that even many educated people like to hear only from the 'downtrodden.' The facts of 'why' they are in that position? They like hearing it's due to the oppression of those who pretend to be 'good.'

ALL THE MEDIA has supported our bigotry in the ME and Israeli propaganda was all Americans got .. until recently .. and much of the change in coverage and opinion comes from the internet, where unbiased thoughts can be expessed.

Your side is losing the "propaganda war" because, free of Israeli propaganda, it fails on it's merits. Not a single person here who defends Israel can answer how this is in America's best interest. Not one of you, including Jillian and David S have even attempted. That's not propaganda, that's a truth.

 

[Annie]

ALL THE MEDIA has supported our bigotry in the ME and Israeli propaganda was all Americans got .. until recently .. and much of the change in coverage and opinion comes from the internet, where unbiased thoughts can be expessed.

Your side is losing the "propaganda war" because, free of Israeli propaganda, it fails on it's merits. Not a single person here who defends Israel can answer how this is in America's best interest. Not one of you, including Jillian and David S have even attempted. That's not propaganda, that's a truth.

Be that as it may, how would supporting the Palestinians, which is what you and others are doing, help our national interest?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Be that as it may, how would supporting the Palestinians, which is what you and others are doing, help our national interest?

Good question.

First, we don't have to support the Palestinains as much as we have to be seen as supporting real efforts at peace.

1. It would demonstrate that America is an honest broker. With our current position in the ME, nobody believes that .. AND, Obama is going to be exposed on the world stage if he just parrots the same bullshit about Israel first on this issue .. which is why he's hiding from it now. America is dependent on the rest of the world and unless we strike a new course and remake our face globally, we will continue to pay the price in antiamericanism and all its forms.

2. It would put the onus on the Palestinians and the arab world to work more effectively in coming to terms with Israel. It removes the justified rational that peace can never be achieved as long as America has a hand in the ME.

3. It would force Israel to take a hard look at their actions. Without unbridled US support, Israel cannot survive giving the finger to the rest of the world and the UN. It would force Israel to think a lot smarter and to seek the value of soft power and true accomodation with their arab neighbors.

4. It would be the biggest blow to the justification for terrorism that we could possibly deliever. Bombs only make more terrorists and supports the justification for it. We cannot honestly claim to be fighting "terrorism" while we support Israel's terrorist activities .. particularly when much of what is happening today in the ME is because elections are forthcoming. If that what "democracy" looks like it's no mystery of why many reject it.

 

[Annie]

BAC, I do see your rationale, but seems to be underlaid with the assumption that first Israel loses its one ally and then tries to find 'an honest broker.' What you fail to acknowledge there is a clear absence of such, yeah I'll throw the US into that category too.

You give Palestinians the right for 'an honest' broker, but fail to see it would be the reverse to throw Israel to a body such as the UN, which has time and again allowed anti-semitism to stink up the place.

 

[editec]

Perhaps our different views on this come from my being I'm older then you good brother. I've lived the civil rights era and if you think the differences are wide on Israel imagine what they were on race in this country.

Perhaps, but I too lived through the civil right movement and was ducking when the race riots were happening in the late 60s and early 70s, too.

Although the internet wasn't yet alive, there were plenty of mediums and opportunities for people to express their views. Ultimately, through all the hundreds of years of a racist culture, intelligence began to break through the noise. America was forced to take a hard look at itself because the conversations would not stop, would not just go away.

Of course. But the oppression of the Palestinians is far worse than what was happening to the Blacks of the 1950s.

We should never allow the percieved extremes to dictate society of what should or should not be discussed. I say "percieved" extremes because what one sees as extreme another sees as a critical element of the discussion. Again, race is a prime example.

I'm all over discussions, BAC, it's when these discussion are infected by the racists and ethnocentrists such that I am on hand viewed as JEW hater, and on the other as a JEW lover that I think the venue is too toxic to be doing any good.

Additionally, why run from the extremes? If a position is indeed extreme, shouldn't a more proper position be able to demonstrate its logical soundness, particularly when compared to the extreme?

Am I running to extremes?

In my opinion, what is demonstrated about this issue even here on this board .. even through the noise .. is those who profess this undying love of Israel before the best interests of their own country cannot intelligently support their position, cannot answer the critical question of how this benefits America, and hide behind the mask of "anti-semitism."

No argument from me on that point. I was called an antisemite for merely pointing out the history that disaster came out of about two days after I got here.

I've posted the thoughts of JEWISH thinkers who support the same position of Israel that the vast majority of the world support. They're only answer is to call other Jews "self-loathing" and to claim the entire planet is "anti-semitic."

Yeah, understood. Now do you understand how terrified these American Jews are that there will be another holocaust if they don't take a hard line?

I sure as fuck do.

I'm obviously getting more from these discussions than you are, but I'm sure there are other people who come away with the same. There is a reason why this discussion has been censored in America .. and that reason is because there is no logic that supports our position in the ME.

The reason American policy supports Isreal has NOTHING to do with American not bewing able to have discussion about it, BAC.

I've been having this discussion with rational Zionists for decades.

 

[editec]

ALL THE MEDIA has supported our bigotry in the ME and Israeli propaganda was all Americans got .. until recently .. and much of the change in coverage and opinion comes from the internet, where unbiased thoughts can be expessed.

The discussion really started back in the mid 1960s.

Until that time the vast majority of Americans didn't give a moments thought to the Palestinians. They all saw EXODUS and that was the end of their thinking.

It really wasn't until the PLO started killing people that anyone started asking themselves what the hell was going on.

I hate to say it, but it took Palestinian terrorism to make people even LOOK at what was happening.

Your side is losing the "propaganda war" because, free of Israeli propaganda, it fails on it's merits. Not a single person here who defends Israel can answer how this is in America's best interest. Not one of you, including Jillian and David S have even attempted. That's not propaganda, that's a truth.

BAC I think they think they're losing the propaganda war because of the inherent anti-Semitism that they assume every non-Jew has.

Given the history of the Jews, and the treatment they got from the White non-Jewish races, one really cannot blame them for being paranoid.

The lesson of the Germany Haolcaust is not one that any Jew is EVER going to forget.

The fact that this lesson is to some extent making them untractably pqaranoid of anyone who doesn't completely agree with their jaded view of what's happening in the MidEast is completely understandable to me.

It doesn't excuse it, but at least I understand where it's coming from.

The Jews know perfectly well (as you must) that there is a small but dangerous group of Jew haters who would, if they could, kill every Jew in the world.

What I think many of them doubt is the fact that many people who do not support Israel as it functions today, would come to the aid of the Jews if those NAZI motherfuckers ever tried that crap here.

American NATIONALISTS have very little reason to support Isreali policies that we see about how the Palestinians are being treated.

But we have every reason to defend Jews from these nitwits who hate Jews.

And so the NAZIs on this board play this game of making every damned thread an indictment of Zionism.

I grow weary of thier games...just as I grow weary of people talking about the Palestinians as "animals"

Such thoughtless hatred offends me no matter who it is aimed at or who is saying it.