Americans will NEVER accept socialism!

It's a common fallacy that the mixed economy is a "combination" of capitalism and socialism. In fact, it's simply a form of capitalism, the three major forms in the West being rightist Anglo-Saxon capitalism, centrist or center-left liberal democratic capitalism, and leftist social democratic capitalism (and related forms of Rhine capitalism might qualify).

The fallacy of the "combination" is based on the linear economic spectrum, the woefully incomplete line that ranges from a "pure" laissez-faire economy to a "pure" command economy. Since both are theoretical abstractions with no history of existence, however, we have to refer to the capitalist economy with centralized governmental planning and the command economy with allocative market structure as the two primary economic systems that industrialized society has functioned under. And most importantly, we have to note that governmental programs that in fact strengthen conditions and thus sustain that order of private ownership are hardly "socialist" in nature. Hence, liberalism and socialism are in fact opposing ideologies.

Next, republican market socialism would probably be the economic system most in line with the Constitution and Framer intent. The "laissez-faire" prescriptions offered by classical liberal thinkers during a period in which agrarian conditions and relatively egalitarian land distribution were expected to maintain equitable economic conditions are largely inapplicable to modern economic and more broadly societal conditions in which large-scale industrial development after the phase of the primitive accumulation of capital has spawned corporate capitalism, a state-supported economic structure that involves market and wealth concentration and thus, consolidation of primary influence over government and near-complete ownership and management rights over industry by an elite financial class. That problem exists even aside from the fact that many classical liberal philosophers and economists (most notably Adam Smith) were significantly more protectionist in nature than they are disingenuously depicted as by modern rightists. Moreover, the economy as a whole was not as drastically unregulated as is commonly perceived and support for regulation amongst the Founding Fathers was not as sparse as is commonly perceived. In fact, Alexander Hamilton, the first Secretary of the Treasury, was effectively the first to comprehensively advocate the infant industry argument (a protectionist trade argument, if you're unfamiliar with it) in his Reports of the Secretary of the Treasury on the Subject of Manufactures.

Regardless, the main point is that classical liberal philosophy generally offers a defense of property rights based on individual appropriation of the product of one's labor that many classical liberal theorists expected to result in relatively egalitarian conditions. No defense of vast corporate structure that modern propertarians defend as legitimate fixtures of fair market exchange and the massive concentration of wealth that they defend as the earned reward of entrepreneurial spirit can be drawn from that philosophy. It's an obvious reality that the conditions of presently existing capitalism are not those "without a formal class structure...and a dispersed and relatively diverse population composed of small entrepreneurs," as this article describes them. Our capitalist economy is not composed of independent producers and artisans, but of large-scale corporate structure and rampant concentration of wealth and property. The reality is thus that modern propertarians (disingenuously self-identified "libertarians") have effectively co-opted classical liberal arguments just as effectively as they stole the "libertarian" label from European anarchists, thus committing what appear to be property violations more severe than any that they regularly decry. For example, the political scientist Robert Dahl (A Preface to Economic Democracy, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985) notes this:

[A]n economic order that spontaneously produced inequality in the distribution of economic and political resources acquired legitimacy at least in part, by clothing itself in the recut garments of an outmoded ideology in which private property was justified on the ground that a wide diffusion of property would support political equality. As a result, Americans have never asked themselves steadily or in large numbers whether an alternative to corporate capitalism might be more consistent with their commitment to democracy.

Sound adaptation of the more libertarian elements of the classical liberal philosophy would thus probably lend support to libertarian socialism today, particularly libertarian market socialism, such as the mutualism of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (though more likely a minarchist variety, not his anarchist form). We could also look to more broadly democratic market socialism such as that today advocated by figures such as David Schweickart and the aforementioned Theodore Burczak. The reason for this is that democratic market socialism is able to maximize legitimately competitive market enterprise through its elimination of monopolistic and oligopolistic conditions, and more broadly, market and wealth concentration. It's also able to promote personal possession rather than "private property" in that their is greater focus on individual possession and consumption rights rather than the "right" to own massive corporate structure, which permits the utilization of hierarchical and authoritarian wage labor as an element of internal firm structure, which is flatly undemocratic in both de jure and de facto terms. There is a corresponding support for workers' democratic ownership and management in such market socialist models. I don't advocate democratic market socialism myself; I advocate decentralized participatory planning, specifically in the form of anarchist communism. I simply believe that democratic market socialism is more compatible with classical liberal principles as adapted to a modern context than presently existing capitalism is. If not, then massive wealth and property re-distribution at the very least would be necessary to imitate the egalitarian conditions that classical liberalism was then to be applied to, but I think this impractical, and not far from democratic market socialism anyway, so we might as well attempt to implement a framework of public ownership.
 
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under
the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist
program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without
knowing how it happened." ~ Norman Thomas-(1884-1968) six-time U.S. Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

Indeed.

Damnit, why the hell wasn't he advocating revolution? Damned Fabians, take all the fun out of extremist leftists politics :lol:

I would suppose he didn't feel/see the need to. he saw it would come in due course...and here we are...smack dab in the midst of it...in the fight of our lives to defend this Republic...
 
Our veterans get socialized medicine through the VA. How many conservatives who proclaim nothing but the best for our vets are fighting to privatize the VA?
If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.
 
Our veterans get socialized medicine through the VA. How many conservatives who proclaim nothing but the best for our vets are fighting to privatize the VA?
If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.

And as A Vet, It's Horrible...Waiting weeks to even be seen...This is what other Americans will have to suffer if the "Public Option" ever comes to fruition.
 
Public healthcare isn't "socialist" in nature; socialism, as described by the American Heritage Dictionary, involves "a social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community."
 
Public healthcare isn't "socialist" in nature; socialism, as described by the American Heritage Dictionary, involves "a social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community."

Apparently? *YOU* Haven't read the proposed Bill...

Come back when you do.
 
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under
the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist
program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without
knowing how it happened." ~ Norman Thomas-(1884-1968) six-time U.S. Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

Indeed.

Damnit, why the hell wasn't he advocating revolution? Damned Fabians, take all the fun out of extremist leftists politics :lol:

I would suppose he didn't feel/see the need to. he saw it would come in due course...and here we are...smack dab in the midst of it...in the fight of our lives to defend this Republic...

No you're not. You're cranky because the Republicans didn't win everything. That's all.
 
Our veterans get socialized medicine through the VA. How many conservatives who proclaim nothing but the best for our vets are fighting to privatize the VA?
If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.

Then why is it like that?
 
Apparently? *YOU* Haven't read the proposed Bill...

Come back when you do.

Does it involve establishment of the public ownership and management of the means of production? Come back when it does.

It proposes to DICTATE to Americans what they CAN/Cannot do on their OWN behalf...it robs them of their CHOICES...It proposes to Dictate to Private entities what THEY can/Cannot do...

Come back when you've READ the fuckin' thing simp.
 
Our veterans get socialized medicine through the VA. How many conservatives who proclaim nothing but the best for our vets are fighting to privatize the VA?
If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.

Sad to see you were mistreated. My wife and I, both retired, have had nothing to complain about with VA and Tricare care.
 
Apparently? *YOU* Haven't read the proposed Bill...

Come back when you do.

Does it involve establishment of the public ownership and management of the means of production? Come back when it does.

It proposes to DICTATE to Americans what they CAN/Cannot do on their OWN behalf...it robs them of their CHOICES...It proposes to Dictate to Private entities what THEY can/Cannot do...

Come back when you've READ the fuckin' thing simp.

If someone can't afford to pay insurance for health care are they robbed of their CHOICES?
 
Social Security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment insurance, FDIC backing, welfare, food stamps, early child care, veterans benefits are all 'socialism,' so it is a little late to worry about socialism. Add all the corporate loop holes and voila! Mixed economies are the only economies that work, prior to Reagan's destruction of the union, we had a fairer, more equitable workplace. Let's hope we can turn that around so average Americans get a break not just the wealthy and the corporations.

What we need today is more socialism for the average person and less for the corporations.

The Conservative Nanny State

See. [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Hands-Making-Conservative-Movement/dp/0393059308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247845984&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Invisible Hands: The Making of the Conservative Movement from the New Deal to Reagan (9780393059304): Kim Phillips-Fein: Books[/ame]

"Historian Phillips-Fein traces the hidden history of the Reagan revolution to a coterie of business executives, including General Electric official and Reagan mentor Lemuel Boulware, who saw labor unions, government regulation, high taxes and welfare spending as dire threats to their profits and power. From the 1930s onward, the author argues, they provided the money, organization and fervor for a decades-long war against New Deal liberalism—funding campaigns, think tanks, magazines and lobbying groups, and indoctrinating employees in the virtues of unfettered capitalism."
 
Our veterans get socialized medicine through the VA. How many conservatives who proclaim nothing but the best for our vets are fighting to privatize the VA?
If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.

Then why is it like that?
Because the VA hospitals are government run hospitals, and the services are limited. The doctors and nurses are second rate who can't get a job at a real hospital mostly because of the low pay , and the testing equipment such as MRI's, etc, are almost non-existent. Yes, we are a socialist nation now, but we still maintain a democratic system with healthcare, and we should keep it that way.
 
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If you have never received medical care in a VA hospital, then you don't know anything about the socialized medicine our vets receive. It is horrible, and I speak from a purple heart recipient's standpoint.

Then why is it like that?
Because the VA hospitals are government run hospitals, and the services are limited. The doctors and nurses are second rate who can't get a job at a real hospital mostly because of the low pay , and the testing equipment such as MRI's, etc, are almost non-existent. Yes, we are a socialist nation now, but we still maintain a democratic system with healthcare, and we should keep it that way.

The VA system sounds underfunded. There's a solution to underfunding and it's pretty straightforward.

What's democratic about your current health care system? Serious question, not poking you in the eye.
 
After this health care debate.

I remembered a comment from someone from the U.K. that said this about us decades ago.

Americans will never accept socialism--if they know what it is--& or they see it coming. "It will take an "economic crisis" with Americans not looking.

According to the author of the above quote--we as Americans value our FREEDOM--over health care, over taxes--over defictis--& our own lives.

It's an inherit trait in every American.

We value FREEDOM above all else.

Let's never forget who we are! :clap2:
I disagree , people like free shit from the government , more than freedom.

They like the idea they are hurting people who have made them socially disadvantaged and free money.
They have learned for generation America and freedom are enemies of the people.
The American people want social justice ,death to America , free Palistein and Death to Israel.

Shouldn't drink and post.
 
My turn.
I can wear a t-shirt that says my Prime Minister sucks to a rally he his holding and I won't be told to leave, nor will the Diplomatic Protection Squad tell me to leave.

Well, that isn't really different from here. The last Prez was just a notable exception.

But hey, if you can openly disrespect your country's leaders, that's pretty free. And you have this freedom despite having a public healthcare system, right?
 

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